Understanding Gyroplane Flight Controls.

fara

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Based on my research new pilots have uncomanded rotor excursions because they have not learned rotor management and don’t know what to do when the rotor warns them of impending trouble.

In my opinion too much airspeed for the rotor rpm and a mishandled cyclic is what causes the retreating blade to stall and the advancing blade to sail.

Doug’s technique works well with many of the gyroplanes I have flown and it is how I was taught by Greg in the American Ranger.

I feel using standard radio phraseology at a non-towered airport has value.

There is no active runway at a non-towered airport and there is no position and hold at any airport in the USA.

Of course that is doable and certainly Greg does do that. However, that is not the recommended takeoff procedure in most POH whether it be AutoGyro or AR-1
You are instructed to line up, push stick forward and pre-rotate to a minimum value before bringing stick back and get moving. We have to recognize that as experienced pilots we can multi-task a lot more than new pilots and take many things for granted. New pilots are already overwhelmed and have information overload and things that are second nature to you are full blown tasks for them. We have to recognize gyroplane takeoffs are more demanding than any fixed wing and trike takeoff in LSA sector. Adding any extra tasks and management there is increasing chances of a mishap for inexperienced and new gyroplane pilots. Period. Stats will definitely bear my view out and remember many of the takeoff incidents may not even be reported to NTSB.

Even though position and hold and active runway are not technically terminology at non-towered airports, you will hear active runway and position and hold called out many times. I certainly have. Pilots use it quite a lot.
 

Resasi

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The wheel balancing whilst I understand some of its benefits put the student in the vey high risk part of takeoff, highly at risk from gusts or minor over controls where there may not be room or time for correction
Wheel balancing taught correctly, in the proper sequence, covering all the aspects of take off as specified in the syllabus and it occurs, puts the student at less risk than otherwise!

You are not a gyro instructor, and your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to, unfortunately is misleading.

Fara is on the money. A gyro take off in much more complex than any fixed wing take off, much more is involved, and breaking the take-off in a single into small bit size chunks in vital. Far more so than in a two seat with an instructor right there to catch/correct any mistakes.

Be assures JetLag the instructional technique for the single seat and two seat gyros is very different.

Balancing while not that important on a two seat...is very important in a single.

Just as teaching each step in the TO sequence in a single is more important in the single...because it is only the student in the machine, no back-up, and any mistake uncorrected can lead to injury and death, rather than a verbal admonition from the Instructor beside/behind!!!
 
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JETLAG03

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Wheel balancing taught correctly, in the proper sequence, covering all the aspects of take off as specified in the syllabus and it occurs, puts the student at less risk than otherwise!

You are not a gyro instructor, and your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to, unfortunately is misleading.

Fara is on the money. A gyro take off in much more complex than any fixed wing take off, much more is involved, and breaking the take-off in a single into small bit size chunks in vital. Far more so than in a two seat with an instructor right there to catch/correct any mistakes.

Be assures JetLag the instructional technique for the single seat and two seat gyros is very different.

Balancing while not that important on a two seat...is very important in a single.

Just as teaching each step in the TO sequence in a single is more important in the single...because it is only the student in the machine, no back-up, and any mistake uncorrected can lead to injury and death, rather than a verbal admonition from the Instructor beside/behind!!!
Nope, I am not an instructor, or even a skilled gyropilot. That is why I post questions to receive knowledgeable responses. Maybe the wording of my post was incorrect.

I "suspect" that the dangerous part of any take off or landing is the first and latter part. I have read many comments from skilled pilots both for and against wheel balancing and always appreciate input of the why's and how's of each technique.

you comment "Balancing while not that important on a two seat...is very important in a single." why is that so??

I was taught extensively to wheel balance in a two seater, a technique I cannot say I have "mastered" but can do.

I have also asked else where for an explanation of the difference between duel and solo place training and you comment "Be assures JetLag the instructional technique for the single seat and two seat gyros is very different." so I look forward to reading your explanation of the differences, simply because for me, a newby, all knowledge is valuable
 

Resasi

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"Balancing while not that important on a two seat...is very important in a single." why is that so??
If one compares the stability of a mono cycle to that of a bicycle it gives perhaps an idea of the differences in longitudinal stability between the mono seat and two seat gyros.

The two seat gyros have a greater longitudinal stability mainly due to their horizontal stabs being placed further back from their Cof G and their controls tend to be heavier that the single seaters.

A pilot who has begun his training on a two seat gyro will therefore most probably have had experience of heavier controls and greater longitudinal stability...and someone on board to react to dangerous mistakes made by the student.

The student now begins on a single/mono seat. The controls are much lighter and he has less longitudinal stability. This combination will make it very much easier for him to over-control and in fact to get behind and in fact aggravate any excursions/oscillations about the longitudinal axis. This is called PIO or pilot induced oscillation which if allowed to continue can result in PPO or pilot pitch over. PPO is fatal in a gyro, as the air allowed to come in from above the rotor disc slows the rotor. The blades lose the centripetal/centrifugal rigidity and begin flapping and flexing loss of lift and possible/probable rotor impact with airframe...gravity acting on a mass of metal and pilot...impact!

The instructor was on the ground, and may well have been attempting to communicate to the student...but helpless to actually intervene.

The concentration on, and importance of wheel balancing in single seat training allows the instructor to see that a student has mastered the ability to balance on the main wheels without over controlling, ie he can run the length of the runway without touching either nose or tail wheel to the ground. Not once, but a number of time, in varying wind conditions and directions, and thereby demonstrating positively that he has acquired the ability not to over-control and exaggerate oscillation about the lateral axis but to positively stop any such tendency.

Repeated demonstration of this then allows to Instructor to then proceed and allow the student into the air with some reasonable confidence for the next stages of instruction.
 

Vance

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If you learn to balance on the mains well in any properly designed gyroplane it is unlikely you will takeoff prematurely.

You will learn about throttle control and the use of the rudder in the process.

As Leigh says it is easier to over control a single seater so the need for smooth, correct control inputs is magnified.

Pilot induced oscillations slow the rotor each time it reaches the top of the oscillation and this can be particularly hazardous in a high thrust line gyroplane.

For some of us the definition of PPO is power push over and in my opinion it is very unlikely in a near centerline thrust gyroplane.

Magni has demonstrated that a PPO is also unlikely with generous horizontal stabilizer volume despite its high thrust line.
 

NJpilot

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The two seat gyros have a greater longitudinal stability mainly due to their horizontal stabs being placed further back from their Cof G and their controls tend to be heavier that the single seaters.

A pilot who has begun his training on a two seat gyro will therefore most probably have had experience of heavier controls and greater longitudinal stability...and someone on board to react to dangerous mistakes made by the student.

The student now begins on a single/mono seat. The controls are much lighter and he has less longitudinal stability. This combination will make it very much easier for him to over-control and in fact to get behind and in fact aggravate any excursions/oscillations about the longitudinal axis. This is called PIO or pilot induced oscillation which if allowed to continue can result in PPO or pilot pitch over. PPO is fatal in a gyro, as the air allowed to come in from above the rotor disc slows the rotor. The blades lose the centripetal/centrifugal rigidity and begin flapping and flexing loss of lift and possible/probable rotor impact with airframe...gravity acting on a mass of metal and pilot...impact!
If the plan is to end up on a single seat gyro would training on a side by side gyro be less longitudinally stable than a tandem and better prepare one for the single seat?
 

BEN S

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I would suggest that sxs or tandem is less of a difference then the CFI's overall knowledge and record of training students successfully in a single.
All dual gyros will fly heavier then a single seater.
Were not talking "School Buss" category like a Cessna or Piper, they are afterall still gyros.
If your CFI has never owned or flown a single seater or has never trained someone to fly theirs you might want to look for another of single seat pilotage is what your after.
 

Philbennett

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The key words in all of this are "well" "properly" "master the ability" "confidence" "correctly".

Of course decades of gyroplane accidents have demonstrated that this is not always the case, indeed we could spend hours reviewing qualified pilots OWN YouTube clips proving this is not the case.

I am not aware of anyone teaching or advocating pilots "rotate" "planting the nose wheel" "some predetermined cyclic position" - pilots who screw the pooch during the take off phase [to the point Fara is making] just make a mistake, likely through being over loaded mentally. In that sense it is nothing to do with "rotor management" because at the point these pilots f**K up they are totally oblivious to their problems and so are not managing anything.

Likewise I suggest that when people are teaching wheel balancing what element in that process that leads to taking off is managing the rotor? Pre-rotation? Stick fully aft? Wheel brake release? Start the ground roll? by the time the wheel balance is anywhere near being achievable the rotor is up to speed.

Some better instructors will not allow students to move on beyond that phase if they can not master a technique. That is great and to be applauded but sadly it isn't always the case and clearly the mastery of any technique takes time, time which very often in the marketing / sales talk is suggested people need less of, not more. Indeed those same people are also ones that suggest the gyroplane is impervious to wind.
 

chrisk

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I use upwind tilt in crosswind during the take off roll after the initial back tilt as I accelerate forward. I have to keep the nose straight with opposite rudder. That is also what I teach at Anahuac, as on most days, we have pretty strong cross winds.
This is what I teach as well. Further, I have the student hold runway alignment until they are certain the gyro will not come back down. Then coordinated flight for the climb out (which makes a substantial difference in climb performance). Also, when the rotor is not tilted sufficiently into the wind, the center line is not held. --In this respect, take off and landing in a cross wind are similar.
 

Vance

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In my opinion following the POH procedure on takeoff is all about rotor management.

Balancing on the mains with the nose tire just off the ground is a good way to manage indicated air speed and rotor acceleration.

In my opinion an un-comanded rotor excursion is from too much indicated air speed for the rotor rpm or disk angle.

I manage the takeoff sequence with the cyclic, the throttle and the rudder.

I don’t feel a flight instructor needs to be on board for someone to practice balancing on the mains once they have grasped the principles and demonstrated proficiency.

I feel wind limits are important for someone learning to fly a gyroplane and the limits need to be increased gradually as flight experience builds.
 
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