UFO Sighting In N.C. Not the Automan type.

animal

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yes as stated I to would like to hear of any good or bad points, the More info I have the better I can talk to the main people to improve it. I mean after all yapping about the bad things does not get them resolved,so far I am getting good responses from suggestions on the helicopter and gyros. and I think the dealer should try and give the Customer what they want if they plan to stay in business.

Again I am just waiting to see my self, I did Talk to Anthony and if all goes well the UFO and Phoenix Rotorcraft .. WILL be at Bensen days 2011 .
 

PW_Plack

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Tim, I don't want this to come off as a personal attack. It's not. But I have to observe a pattern here, and it's an apparent lack of due diligence in evaluating the marketplace, the companies being purchased, and personnel decisions. For all the money he's spending, Anthony will be starting from scratch, or worse, reputation-wise when he's ready to bring a product to market.

...next I heard from Anthony,was that he bought out the Rotor hawk Company...Sadly Neal did not give Anthony enough to even Build a Falcon, basicly he got all the left over stock and parts drawings, but not even a construction manual...
The purchase of Neal's company was admirable if it was a charitable act, but apparently did not bring any actual assets to the company.

...next call I got was when Anthony called to tell me he bought out the Nolan brothers helicopter design...
I don't know much about the Nolan Brothers other than their Model 51, powered by two Rotax 582s and having no collective, but obviously not market-ready technology.

...What I do know about Anthony is at this point he has never even ridden in a Gyro...
...OK...

...Anthony told me if I had my Gyro rateing he would make me his Company demo pilot...
Tim, I have a couple hundred hours as a Private pilot, 20 in gyros, have soloed a gyro, and could have the rating next year. Even when I get it, if a company told me that qualified me to be its demo pilot, that alone would be a sign to run the other way!

Phoenix is going to need to establish a training program for this thing if it sells in any significant numbers. A much more logical step would be approaching one of our CFIs who's retired from a day job, flexible, and brings thousands of hours of credibility to the project.

...I live about 80 miles from the Phoenix Rotor craft shop. so most of my contact is phone and E-mails and I have only been there 2 times...
I'd want a more thorough vetting of my reps!

...I have been told that Jeff Told Anthony there are 35 UFO's flying...
I've been told there's a Tooth Fairy.

I can say Anthony,so far seems to be an honest man trying to do what is needed to make the company grow...
That could be very true, but there's little here to suggest he knows how. He's taken on a product with a reputation for performance claims that are simply not physically possible, years of suspect claims of sales and flight activity, and a previous US rep who made enemies.

I wish him well, as I would anyone trying to advance the sport, but if there was an IPO next week, I wouldn't be in line for stock.
 

Redbaron

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Tim maybe you could invite anthony to join the forum if he doesn't already view it. I can't see where you could get any more knowledge than here.
 

animal

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Well Paul. you quote better then I do on here. I have to agree, he has taken on a big Challange. you bring up all valid points.non of which help or hinder the rep of the UFO.

when he was talking about me becoming a demo pilot was before he go involved with the UFO. was more in line with demo flying a Falcon which I would think any trained Gyro pilot should be able to fly. things are in the works, and non of it is going to happen over night.
things will either come together and progress or it will go belly up. I am doing what I can to point Anthony in the right direction and to the right people as CFI's and other contacts.
I do think the tooth fairy remark was a bit out of line,when you start off saying not a personnal attack. I am not over seas where these gyros are made so until I see proof other wise,why should I not believe that somewhere in the world ,their may not be more flying, trust me there are many gyros around that we will never hear about on this forum or other forums for the simple matter of how things go and get torn apart on here. and not refering to this thread. but we have all seen the mud slinging that goes on here. Now that said if their are more flying, it would be nice to see them and hear from the owners.
 
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animal

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Tim maybe you could invite anthony to join the forum if he doesn't already view it. I can't see where you could get any more knowledge than here.
RED, he is already on here. http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/member.php?u=12793

But he is way to busy trying to make parts and get the Business going. so he is letting me handle promoting on the Forum and answering questions.

Problem is I have to call Him to get the answers a lot of time.

that is why I tell people on here to call him and talk to him. he has the answers to about anything I have asked him and what he may not have an answer for he looks into.

what you have to keep in mind Red is this is a new company with for right now a very small staff. if I lived closer I could have a full time job with him.

but I am at least 80 miles away.... talk about a work at home job..lol and right now I am doing all this on here free. I have not been paid a dime so far.he did give me some tail rotor blades and bought me lunch 1 time.
But I am doing all this in hopes that the company will grow.

Trust me I wish I was getting paid,I have been on here today the major part of the day doing replys,not to mention replying to some private e-mails about the products. but oh well it is a cold day and I am stuck inside so no big deal.

He does once in awhile get on and read when I send him a link to a post and Jeff From UFO is reading also from what I was told. so that is why I would like to hear from first hand accounts from people that know the UFO first hand and not posting a link from 2005 or when ever about the same crash of the UFO.

I mean heck if you posted links to every RAF-2000 crash you would have a forum full.

I am in no way defending the UFO as I have not seen it fly yet,the Video I posted looks like it flys pretty well to me.

I did address the comments about the single center mounted stick to Anthony tonight and how it needed Dual controls and was told it would be a major job to change, so I mentioned why not a T bar like an R-22, and Anthony said he would talk to Jeff and look into that more.

I my self am not to hot on a single center mounted stick. and as I stated I plan to be honest about my reports and feelings about the Design.

I think Phoenix has learned that it is best to try and give the Customer what they want.

the way I see it is if the Customer wants dual controls or a T bar. give it to them.
if they want a different Horz. stab like the RAF needed, Give it to them. if they want more power and 4 cycle like the yamaha 150 Ernie designed Give it to them.

Companys that listen to what a customer or the Public wants will go far. Companys that try and feed you the cool aid like RAF in canada did. well they will go the way Canada RAF did.

I feel Anthony will be the type to give the Customer what they are asking for.

Not one time has he told me NO we are Not going to mess with that or that no it's not worth looking into.

That right there impresses me as he will be a good man to deal with and the Company will improve.

I mean hey. how many here if they had the Money would put this much effort into this venture knowing full well that it can go good or bad?

I personally am will to give the man and the Company a Chance.

The plan is to demo the UFO at Bensen days. so I suggest we all take a breath, sit back and see if the UFO makes it to Bensen Days and we all get to see it fly for our selves. and if it all comes together you should see it flying at many other events. trust me I don't think Anthony would have invested in a big semi rig to go to fly-ins with and demo it with if he did not plan to fly and market his products.

next week I am going to be riding with him to get the truck and yes I will post pics about the trip to get it.

Like I said I am looking forward to going to these Fly-ins and promoting and selling some Gyro and helicopters and components. I am having fun just being on the inside to know what I know now. and trust me there are things in the works,but I have been asked not to reveal them yet.
just like any other company that is designing stuff. some thing will not be public till it's time.
 

Master Roda

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It's not smart for me to give advise to you, but....

Rename the machine....AFTER you make the necessary changes to it. I think you know what they are.
I'm not in the business to bash this design publicly so I'll PM you my problems with this machine if you wish.....just let me know.
One thing I like about this design is the view from the cabin...it's good.

I wish there wasn't so much negativity towards you for promoting this design, but it is premature...don't you think?

I see your excitement and it's great to have another person promoting the sport.
I sincerely wish you the best of luck, it's tough out there.

Jon
 

PW_Plack

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... I do think the tooth fairy remark was a bit out of line,when you start off saying not a personnal attack. I am not over seas where these gyros are made so until I see proof other wise,why should I not believe that somewhere in the world ,their may not be more flying, trust me there are many gyros around that we will never hear about on this...
Tim, sorry if that was too blunt. If nobody other than the seller, including gyro enthusiasts in the machine's home country, has seen more than one of them flying, the claim that there are 35 flying goes in the same bin with the preposterous speed/range claims until 3rd-party reports come in.

I was only trying to suggest that Anthony's biggest challenges do not have much to do with machining. Jon's comment about changing the name might be right on the money. A lot of baggage here.
 

animal

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Well I for one and willing to wait until I see it fly with my own eyes. before bashing it. but hey bashing is what this forum does best.

bad thing is I am having to defend a design that other then knowing someone that owns one now, I have no big ties with. I mean I am not going to try and sell anyone anything until I see it first hand and see how well it flies. I mean get real I have spent most of this whole day responding to posts that so far I have not seen any cold hard facts from anyone that has flown one or much less even seen one up close. much less a new one that is updated and improved and like any design things can be improved, yet no one has made one single comment about what they would improve.

so if you are one of these People like Red here and some of the others that have no first hand info other then a link to a post of a single crash that happened years ago. then ,sorry but that don't hold much water to me. I mean hey at least the RAF bashing had a point of no Horz. Stab. So instead of bashing it. tell me! how would you improve it?
speak up! I would like to know. I mean listen I for one want to know any pit falls.since at some point I may be riding or flying this machine my self in the Future.

I mean hey the info I learned on the forum about the RAF-2000 and it's ability to bunt over in a matter of seconds made me more aware of my flying it in training.

so if there are issues that need to be address I would like to know what I should look out for.

personally I don't want to die in this thing either, so speak up or hold your peace.
 
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Redbaron

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quote
"I did address the comments about the single center mounted stick to Anthony tonight and how it needed Dual controls and was told it would be a major job to change, so I mentioned why not a T bar like an R-22, and Anthony said he would talk to Jeff and look into that more.

I my self am not to hot on a single center mounted stick. and as I stated I plan to be honest about my reports and feelings about the Design"

Hey tim :wave: my best buddies skyranger has a single center mounted stick and has never been a problem when he passes the controls to me! unless I have to smack him in the forehead when he tries to pull a "3 G turn" :rolleyes:
I can understand trying to fly with your left hand but its quite easy, mabye I'm missing something.
 

NoWingsAttached

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At Mentone '07 I watched, waited, watched, waited...When she flew she looked sluggish and was VERY loud. THere were cooling problems, and several other things that went wrong while they were there. Did they ever returned to B'Days or Mentone? Gee, wonder what happened? It seemed like a decent enough concept, plenty of head and shoulder room, maybe too much.

This thing needs a 150hp Yamaha to fly right, it's a slug with the soob, although that works fantastic on lighter frames. Or even a turbo Yammer. Yeahhh.
 

billygyro

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Lets see if i am right ? Was there one at Bensen Days this past year for sale ? And was it Yellow ? had lots of stuff not put on it that was just laying inside and on the ground that went with it. I may be wrong but I think not> I may even have a pic or two of it. I will see if i can dig them up and post them. The guy that owned it was a nice pleasant fellow to chat with, I think he wanted $25000.00 or best offer, Now that I may be alittle off on but I do believe thats right. It did look heavy !
 

PW_Plack

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Well I for one and willing to wait until I see it fly with my own eyes. before bashing it. but hey bashing is what this forum does best...
Tim, I'll sign off on this, and I really wish you and Anthony the best, but it's not the machine I'm bashing, nor either of you guys. I'm just calling out the ten years of hype going all the way back to the "data" on the old Mel Morris Jones website, none of which has ever been demonstrated.

The manufacturer's website still claims the UFO can operate off a runway of 150' or less; can clear a 50' object with a 100' takeoff roll; that it cruises at 100 MPH while consuming 3.75 gallons (15L) per hour (which in a Soob is 50-55 HP); that despite an empty weight of 950 pounds it "easily" qualifies at 1200 max gross for use as a microlight in NZ. (Requires all occupants and fuel carried to never exceed 250 pounds total?)

I was also there for the one brief flight at Mentone. The machine appeared incapable of any of the claims, and the US rep's response to questions about his own machine was to trash-talk competitors who were actually flying and delivering theirs.

I don't doubt a 1600-pound max gross, two-place gyro with beautiful styling, good comfort, room and visibility could find a market in the US, even if performance is marginal. But the manufacturer's continuing BS will undercut the efforts of honest dealers if it continues.
 
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bopflyer

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have ppl helicopter, ratings in fixed and flexi wing microlights. Learning to fly gyro's.
If this latest version of the UFO fly's well and does what the manufacturer states, then great. It will provide those interested in gyro's another two seat option to consider. Yes earlier models have crashed here in NZ, the last one killing both on-board.
Really, this UFO should undergo a full flight testing programme, with a test/ or very qualified pilot at the controls either in New Zealand or the USA where it may be sold. Prospective owners need to know that this gyro will not kill them, is this too much to ask given its past history. Iam not bashing this design I along with a lot of others just want to know it flies. How can a sales agent be expected to sell it if it hasnt been proven?
I lost a friend a year ago when the last one crashed, no one on here wishes to see a fellow pilot and possibly a passenger die if the latest offering doesnt live up to performance expectations or requires a certain skill level.
Why dont we hear from the guy who makes the UFO
If he reads this thread on the forum, please let him step up to the plate and tell us the flight testing programme that it has under gone to get the UFO to this point. Who the pilots are and lets here from them as to how it performs, has he himself flown hours off in the UFO?
 

Aussie_Paul

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My recollections....

My recollections....

Paulssie
What is wrong with it and how can it be fixed? (short version please?)
I know it is kinda deja vue but I never got the scoop on the UFO.
Thanks
Heron
Here are my recollections of the quite modified UFO Helithruster that I flew back in approx. 2005. It was fitted with an ej-25 and a Hirth gearbox. An engine of 160hp driving a 110 hp gearbox did not impress me!! Several weeks later it spun on the drive taper for the second time and the owner was going to have a keyway fitted. I told him that was probably a bad idea as the gearbox would probably “shatter” without the taper being able to slip.

The day was extremely windy and gusty. The pre rotator was electric and the owner kept hitting the button is short bursts and was very hard on the machine. I told him the best way was to just hit the button and hold it in. It really needed a soft start. We flew without doors fitted. The machine was very slippery but have no idea of actual airspeed. It seemed to me to need heaps of airspeed and power to fly two up. After I had a little play with it including a couple of engine idling landings the owner was pleased although he really had limited experience of any sort of gyros. I was quite concerned that if I had engine failure I would have difficulty keeping it straight during flare and hold off.

What I found with this particular highly modified UFO Helithruster during the 20 minutes I flew it was,
1. Yes it was very slippery,
2. Pitch stability was good.
3. Yaw authority with engine idling and the equivalent of 15mph cross wind was terrible.
4. The rotor disc loading was way too high. I am not 100% sure but I think the rotor diameter was 29’. IMHO it needed at least 31’.
5. Plenty of room inside.
6. The axle was in the wrong place.
7. The tall tail attachment to the mast was flimsy and according to witnesses “wobbled” terribly with pre rotator engagement.
8. That UFO Helithruster was very very heavy.

Aussie Paul. :)

Ps. Good luck to the guys trying to bring this gyro to the market. Never an easy task. I would certainly change the name due to the "bad" reputation this excellent looking machine has acquired due to the inexperienced gyro people previously associated with it.
 

Heron

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So
It was all "normal" for those days, I think!
The first heavy gyros came out limping and crawling untill better engines were available.
The roomie UFO and its beatyfull cabin has been rubbernecking we all for too long, but other projects that promised novelties also are crawling in baby steps.
I don´t see whey the UFO design can´t be made as good as a Sparrow Hawk or Modified RAF, they will fall in the sabe category: SXS, 1.000 poundish and beefed up powerplant.
The bashing thing in this Forum have become ridiculous, nobody can have a different opinion and a gang will be formed against the daring creature . . .
From my Gyro Dark Ages to present I discarded many machines as usable, all of them in time fell of the Earth. What is the problem with that?
Every manufacturer have claims and quirks to deal with, promises not fullfiled, money trouble, woobly market and so on . . .but the main thing never happened, they getting together and having a master game plan to benefit all . . .very amateur.
I wish all the best to Anthony and the UFO, keep the name, it will be always its form that people will remember, the core can be changed.
WE need to review Forum rules and etiquete (an extra T if you must)
thanks
Heron
 

animal

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Here are my recollections of the quite modified UFO Helithruster that I flew back in approx. 2005. It was fitted with an ej-25 and a Hirth gearbox. An engine of 160hp driving a 110 hp gearbox did not impress me!!

The pre rotator was electric and the owner kept hitting the button is short bursts and was very hard on the machine. I told him the best way was to just hit the button and hold it in. It really needed a soft start. We flew without doors fitted. The machine was very slippery but have no idea of actual airspeed. It seemed to me to need heaps of airspeed and power to fly two up. After I had a little play with it including a couple of engine idling landings the owner was pleased although he really had limited experience of any sort of gyros. I was quite concerned that if I had engine failure I would have difficulty keeping it straight during flare and hold off.

What I found with this particular highly modified UFO Helithruster during the 20 minutes I flew it was,
1. Yes it was very slippery,
2. Pitch stability was good.
3. Yaw authority with engine idling and the equivalent of 15mph cross wind was terrible.

4. The rotor disc loading was way too high. I am not 100% sure but I think the rotor diameter was 29’. IMHO it needed at least 31’.

5. Plenty of room inside.
6. The axle was in the wrong place.

7. The tall tail attachment to the mast was flimsy and according to witnesses “wobbled” terribly with pre rotator engagement.

8. That UFO Helithruster was very very heavy.
Ok First off, thanks for giving me a first hand report. gear box, I have not seen this one up close yet to tell what it has. but yeah I would be concerned about putting 160 h.p. into a 110 h.p. gear box. so I have to agree that could be a concern. now a key word here is it was a Highly modified helitruster.so not knowing what all was modified can throw things off.

Prerotator, you stated the guy kept hitting the Button,so thats not the designs fault, a soft start could be added very easyily. but if you look at the Photo below you will see this one has a shaft driven PreRotator.

you state Pitch stability was good, so that is a good point, at least it is not a Bunt o matic.

you stated the one you flew had 29' rotors, this one has 33' Rotors.

you said Yaw authority with engine idling and the equivalent of 15mph cross wind was terrible.

this can easyly be enhanced with one of Anthony Buck Horn Horz. Stab with the winglet

so all in all, it sounds to me like some of the issue have been addressed.

and sounds like any other issues you pointed out can easily be cured.

Again thanks for a non bashing report and pointing out both what was good and what was bad.

a lot of time has passed since 2005 and I am sure this new model I would hope has had these issues addressd. so far the only thing that rises a concern with me is the gearbox.

as even the twin star needs to be landed with some speed or power.

so the way I look at it, is a stronger gear box, some kind of dual controls like a T bar like in the R-22 and some vertical stabs out in the slip stream and ya might have a pretty slick machine.

I agree, with no wings, a 150 yamaha would really be sweet in the machine. might be worth looking into.

I will make some suggestions and see how it is received.
 

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animal

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Yes earlier models have crashed here in NZ, the last one killing both on-board.

I lost a friend a year ago when the last one crashed, no one on here wishes to see a fellow pilot and possibly a passenger die if the latest offering doesnt live up to performance expectations or requires a certain skill level.

Why dont we hear from the guy who makes the UFO
If he reads this thread on the forum, please let him step up to the plate and tell us the flight testing programme that it has under gone to get the UFO to this point. Who the pilots are and lets here from them as to how it performs, has he himself flown hours off in the UFO?
First off let me express my sorrow for your loss.

And yes I to would like to see Jeff Reply since I just learned yesterday that he is reading.

On that same note, any issues about the Design can now be addressed more.

Would you mind telling us what happened in the crash that took your friend and what year it was.

I was told that yes there was a crash that killed the people on board,but it was determined it was not the fault of the machine design. Now keep in mind that is what I was told.

As I stated early on I am searching for the fact my self as I to do not care to put my own self at more risk or any one else for that matter.

But on that same Note I only know of one crash that killed anyone. do you know of more I have not been told of.

but now not trying to attack another design,but so far I don't see that the UFO has killed near as many as the RAF-2000 and even the Sparrow hawk has killed a few people.

Sadly no machine that leaves the ground can be made fool proof and 100% safe to fly.

But on that same Note I am sure any design can be improved on. and I feel Anthony will take suggestions to heart and look at what can be done to make it better. I hey, after all, he owns one of these machines,he will want his to be as safe as possable also. I know Anthony does not want to die or get hurt either and he will be a new Pilot him self. and I know when I get a gyro sign off,I don't want to put my self at more risk.

so if you don't mind I would personnly like to hear more details of the Crash you are refering to.

I think what it boils down to is we all want a good safe design.
 

animal

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Hello Tim,

Why does the Twin Star need to be landed with some speed or power?

Thank you, Vance
Vance, ask Tim O. he told me with the long body he likes to come in with some power as at slow speed it looses some rudder authority.

but that is just what I remember him telling me awhile back.

I am kind of suprised that with that huge Rudder on the UFO that it would have any yaw issue.
 

StanFoster

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Tim- The tail on the UFO looks very close to the SparrowHawk tail. The only difference I see is the UFO has the bottom rear corner bobbed on a 45 degree, and there are no winglets on the horizontal stabilizer. Very easy add ons! However, in my opinion, the air should come back more cleanly around the UFO cabin and should result in more authority and less wig wag that my SparrowHawk had. I saw the UFO fly at Mentone, and that particular one did not have the right engine/propeller combo at all. I would think a 2.5 Subaru would power it nicely, and you could always do the Delta cam grind and get it over 180 horses. So, I see a nice stylish and roomy two seater, that after the problems are worked out, would be another viable choice . Stan
 
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