U.S. Xenon Drivers: Help LSA Effort

[Doug Riley]

Those who fly Xenon gyros in the U.S. can easily help change the FAA's mind about gyros. Here's how and why:

Factory-finished Light Sport Aircraft (LSA's) may be sold under the Light Sport Aircraft regulations if they comply with certain standards and have passed certain tests. This system applies to FW planes, trikes and powered parachutes. So far, the FAA has refused to grant similar privileges to LSA gyros -- even though our industry-created standards were completed several years ago.

The FAA wants to see flight experience in aircraft that comply with the standard (or come close, anyway). Lots of flight experience. As in thousands of hours on many different models. That's where you can help.

The Xenon complies in most respects with the standards. Flight time and safety experience in Xenons therefore should be persuasive to the FAA.

If you will PM me with certain basic info about your Xenon flight hours and incidents, I will strip off all identifying data and forward the info to Greg Gremminger for submission to the FAA.

The data I'll need are: When you started flying, hours flown to date, any incidents or accidents and their severity (machine damaged, machine totaled, injuries, fatalities). Please give me your name, location and N-number -- I will NOT submit these to Greg, the FAA or anybody else. The identifying info stops with me.

Thanks for helping us try to claw our way out of the regulatory box.

 

[ms80831]

Those who fly Xenon gyros in the U.S. can easily help change the FAA's mind about gyros. Here's how and why:

Factory-finished Light Sport Aircraft (LSA's) may be sold under the Light Sport Aircraft regulations if they comply with certain standards and have passed certain tests. This system applies to FW planes, trikes and powered parachutes. So far, the FAA has refused to grant similar privileges to LSA gyros -- even though our industry-created standards were completed several years ago.

The FAA wants to see flight experience in aircraft that comply with the standard (or come close, anyway). Lots of flight experience. As in thousands of hours on many different models. That's where you can help.

The Xenon complies in most respects with the standards. Flight time and safety experience in Xenons therefore should be persuasive to the FAA.

If you will PM me with certain basic info about your Xenon flight hours and incidents, I will strip off all identifying data and forward the info to Greg Gremminger for submission to the FAA.

The data I'll need are: When you started flying, hours flown to date, any incidents or accidents and their severity (machine damaged, machine totaled, injuries, fatalities). Please give me your name, location and N-number -- I will NOT submit these to Greg, the FAA or anybody else. The identifying info stops with me.

Thanks for helping us try to claw our way out of the regulatory box.

---------------------------
DOUG

I will start. I have nothing to hide. N719MB. Total 218 flight hours . Purchased used on 12/2009 . I have put on 92 hours so far this year.

I have flown across the Florida everglades, down the Keys from Largo to Key West, and in the Rocky Mountains over 10,000 feet. No accidents, No incidents. (I have flown both the 8.2 meter and 8.8 meter Aircopter blades.)

Many trips have been very near full gross weight in hot and high density altitude conditions. If the FAA wants to verify this, refer them to the forum's Flying Video's section.



Mark Shook

 

[Doug Riley]

Thank you, Mark. Others who want to protect their privacy are welcome to use the PM route.

 

[Dmorris]

I'm with Mark...

I'm with Mark...

N814DM

Took delivery January 2008
Total Time to date: 187 hours
No accidents or incidents

 

[ventana7]

Doug,

As I noted in my other post on this subject we have taken a step backwards.

The original LSA rule specified that E-LSA gyros would be allowed and then went on to describe them. If your read the transcripsts of the discussions they further said S-LSA gyros might be allowed at a future date if the E-LSA fleet had good accident statistics.

So the intent of all the LSA discussions back before 2003-4 was that they would allow E-LSA gyros. The law when it came out intended to allow E-LSA gyros.

Now however in response to the petitions they have in effect said - design gyros that meet the consensus standards and we will then decided if we will allow E-LSA gyros.

So post petition we are in much worse shape than before we submitted them.

Rob

 

[ventana7]

Doug,

I am sure Xenon, Magni and others would be happy to supply accident statistics but I wonder if there is a better approach.

Follow my logic here-
The SP/LSA law as it came out in 03 or 04 whenever it was finished clearly had a legal mistake in it.

They said you can have E-LSA gyros but not yet S-LSA gyros. That part is abundantly clear.

It is only in another part of the law that requires serial no. 1 be an S-LSA before making E-LSA's. That part of the law applies to all aircraft.

Gyros are such a small part of aviation and the only one not allowed S-LSA that when they wrote that sentence about the SLSA parent no one said "wait we just made a catch 22 that only affects gyros"
and further makes it impossible for them to comply with the law.

My thought when we wrote the petitions was that we should have ONLY addressed the legal wording and basically taken the approach that they made a typo of sorts and it needed to be corrected.

But we submitted the petitions as Sue Gardner suggested re-addresing all the reasons why we should have E-LSA gyros- safety, training, etc, etc.


As an aside: I was once involved in a case where a sherriff closed a river to kayaking which we thought was not his perogative. We went and kayaked the river and got ourselves arrested. The law was a tiny bit vague and the sherriff's interpetation differed from ours. One of our compatriots was in the family of a state senator who had written the law. She provided transcripts of the legaislative discussions which made it clear what the intent of the law was. There is legal precident for this-- ie if a law is unclear the intent of those that wrote can be used to interpet the law itself.

So my suggestion is we sort of do an end run around the rotorcraft directorate who hates gyros and just say to the FAA legal department - hey you already decided to allow ELSA gyros now fix the law you wrote that makes it impossible to comply with the law as you've written it.

Howver I think whatever we do we need to approach it via the manufacturers and through our congress people. They will get action where we will not.

 

[ventana7]

Oh the Irony

Oh the Irony

My company Future Flight LLC put in the Xenon petition in Sept of 2007 and received a negative reply in July of 2010-- almost 3 years waiting.

Here is the wording of the reply:

The FAA has determined that good cause exists for not publishing a summary of the petition in the Federal Register because the requested exemption would not set a precedent, and any delay in acting on this petition would be detrimental to Future Flight.

They are not making me wait to see the bad news in the Federal register as that 2 week delay would be to my detriment - after waiting 3 years-- how considerate of them. :lol:

 

[Doug Riley]

Hi, Rob:

I haven't been following all the convolutions of this tortured process in the last three years. Aside from the somewhat simpler SP license, is there any advantage of an E-LSA over an E-not-LSA?

Gyros have an atrocious rep -- still. That's true even though Bensen and Brock are long gone, RAF is mostly gone and the Air Command bunt-o-matic was fixed nearly 20 years ago. We had the Groen RAF conversion -- which many of us figured was a "fix" for the RAF problem -- smoke in horribly at Bensen Days. Decades' worth of accumulated bad impressions are dying hard.

Consequently, I (grudgingly) am willing to tolerate some amount of "show me" attitude from the FAA. Since the Xenon (and Magni) CAN show 'em, I'm inclined to go the extra half-mile and just do it. We have nothing to hide anyway.

As for E-LSA, you may have a point. I just don't know those regs well enough to comment.

I hope you Xenon drivers will continue to send in data.

 

[ms80831]

Doug

It is my understanding you can no longer give instruction or rent an E-LSA, but you can give instruction and demo rides in a S-LSA for compensation.

 

[Doug Riley]

Mark: Yes, normlly an Experimental aircraft can't be used for any money-making purpose. I am uncertain whether there's a clear regulatory path to achieving even E-LSA status for a gyro. Rob suggests there's not. Even if you achieve E-LSA for your gyro, you still couldn't use it for hire without a special dispensation from the FAA.

Again, the only advantage of E-LSA that I can see (over plain Experimental) is that the Sport Pilot license is somewhat easier to obtain.

You can use S-LSA for moneymaking, but so far the FAA isn't allowing S-LSA gyros. That's what most of the fuss is about.

 

[Alan_Cheatham]

I am uncertain whether there's a clear regulatory path to achieving even E-LSA status for a gyro. Rob suggests there's not.

Again, the only advantage of E-LSA that I can see (over plain Experimental) is that the Sport Pilot license is somewhat easier to obtain.

It's my understanding of the regs that unregistered gyros, even ones that had been factory built, were allowed to grandfather into the system as E-LSA's at the beginning of Light Sport, but this was a one time deal and there was a time limit in which this could be done. Now that the window has closed there is no process by which a newly constructed gyro, homebuilt or otherwise, can be registered as E-LSA, it's either EAB or ultralight.

I think some are confused on this issue. Currently there is not LSA Gyroplane therefore there is not S-LSA or E-LSA (except grandfathered), there are registered EAB's that can be flown on Sport Pilot privileges.

As long as the FAA allows LODAs for gyro flight training in EABs, and because a Sport Pilot can fly an EAB as long as it meets the requirements, there is little advantage to going to LSA that I see, unless you want to buy or sell one factory built.

.

 

[Doug Riley]

Alan, that sounds correct. I would think that, if someone wanted to fly a non-LSA, regular Experimental gyro on a Sport license, it would be wise to ask for operating limitations that specifically allowed it.

:focus:

Any more Xenon owners care to supply data, anonymous or otherwise?

 

[GyroDoug]

The advantage of getting the FAA to allow an ELSA Gyroplane is that people that have more money than time could buy a nearly completed factory built kit with a reasonable expectation that it would be a safely designed and well built machine. That brings a whole lot of people into our sport that currently aren't willing to build their own machines and it brings some models of gyroplanes into the US that currently aren't available as kits because the manufacturers don't trust kit builders to build their machines the way they want them built. Also once we have a proven track record with the ELSA gyros the FAA has said they would consider allowing an SLSA machine into existence. Which is what we really need to create a fleet of safe and reliable training aircraft that can be used for hire and rented out. I understand that means flight schools would have to buy new machines to train in but fixed wing flight schools have been doing that forever and it hasn't stopped them from doing business. It also would make it easier to start getting insurance on gyroplanes which is desperately needed. All of this is not without pain, but it is what will be required if we want to play with the big boys. The FAA has basically said, "Build an SLSA (built to the ASTM standards) let us inspect it and then we will let you start building ELSA kits. Once the ELSA aircraft are flying in significant numbers to show that they really are reasonably safe machines they will open the door to SLSA machines. It will take buying into the value of the ASTM standards and designing a machine accordingly, then investing in a prototype that can be called "SLSA #1" and then the doors will open to the ELSA segment. Somebody just needs to step up to the plate and make the investment. While I understand that may seem risky, just think of the potential rewards available to the first and only company to do that in the US. They would own the market for a while and have a big head start on everyone else. It is the future (at least here in the US). Doesn't anyone want to be the leader?

 

[ventana7]

Gyro Doug outlined the issues very well.
In answer to Doug Riley's question ELSA is not primarily about the SP issue it is about selling factory made gyros which makes the market about 50 times larger.

Howerver Gyro Doug I am not sure I agree with your interpetation of the petition denials. I need to reread it- but you interpeted it to say build an ELSA that meets the ASTM standards and we will inspect it and give you the OK.
I interpeted it to mean build an ELSA that meets the ASTM standards then we can talk. And then at some future point we may decide to allow ELSA gyros. (That is the step backwards I refrenced in my post).

ie they are asking manufacturers to spend more money to comply with ASTM with absolutely no guarantee that anything more will EVER happen.

In spending the 100 Million to certify a regular aircraft at least you know when you do meet all the requirements then you GET certification.
In our case it is as if they are saying meet the requirements then we will decide if we want to allow gyros at all.

Rob

 

[ventana7]

OK I reread the petition again.

The way I see it a mfr needs to:

1. Design an ac that meets all the ASTM standards including design, continued airworthinesss, maintenece etc.
2. Certify that the AC meets all those standards
3. Somehow this mfr. needs to then work with the FAA in an FAA approved testing program to see that SP's can safely fly it and have good safety statistics.-- (I did not see who or how this AC gets built- ie factory or by the SP as a 51% AB).
4. At some future point if the safety statistics merit it then E and or S LSA status may be granted.

Sounds like a long road with no guarantees whatsoever from the FAA that if you do jump through all the hoops you get the prize at the end.

 

[Taoweiji]

So there is 10 in the US and 110 in the rest of the world. Get those owners and/or the factory to help with the statistics.
Data from 120 aircraft will carry more weight than from 10 aircraft.

 

[MAK]

I agree, world aircraft stats will carry a lot of weight. Tell me what data do you need and I will get it for you for the ten Xenon's in South Africa.

 

[Resasi]

Sounds like a good plan, and one that hopefully the manufacturer would see worthwhile pursuing.

 

[JAL]

Sounds like the FAA will be getting to know the factory built gyros whether it wants to or not: This is lifted straight from a recent announcement from AutoGyro in Germany:

"The US Department of Justice has chosen the MTO Sport gyroplane as the latest aircraft to wear its uniform!

AutoGyro GmbH has been officially chosen to be the partner of the US Department of Justice within the Law Enforcement Aviation Technology Program and their gyrocopters clearly stood out from the crowd passing a strict and multilevel selection process prevailing against numerous competitors.

Amongst many other criteria, the various fields of application, flight characteristics, qualityof manufacture, aquisition and operating costs as well as the availability were all key areas where the AutGyro aircraft excelled.

Thanks to its agility, field of vision and low operating costs, the gyrocopter is the ideal alternative to helicopters.

The US authorities will take advantage of these attributes and from now on a specially equipped MTO Sport will serve the law in the cause of the Sheriffs’ Association of Texas.

At the International Association of Chiefs of Police Conference in Orlando, Florida, this MTOsport was displayed and received great interest from both U.S. and International Law Enforcement. In the future, more autogyros will enrich the air fleet of the U.S. Department of Justice.

AutoGyro GmbH Managing Director Otmar Birkner said “It is a great honor for us receiving this confidence and award and we are looking forward to cooperating with the U.S. authorities and other law enforcement agencies”

Good news for all gyro manufacturers as the FAA will now have to start taking it more seriously and will probably have to start getting educated on gyros. Hopefully they work out well then law enforcement agencies all the world will start looking at them.

The only issue is actually pilots, apparently they trialed gyros in law enforcement in germany and when they went to commit to them because the trial was successful the police union stepped in threatened legal action because the pilots refused to fly them!.

Regardless a lot information will be collected that will help support the LSA gyro. This is good for everyone because if the LSA gyro market opens up in the US it will mean new entrants and also allows plenty of support for existing manufacturers.