Turbine Engines

Quantum

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I've been studying the Solar T-62T-32, and first of all, where can these be found? I've searched eBay and the general net, but they do not seem to be common, as represented.

I know they are in EMU30/E and EMU36/E gensets, but none of those seem to be around either. I'd actually prefer to buy a genset because there's an intake and output silencer on the engine and I'd like to see how they did it. I really want to quieten that engine.

Second, I was reading about the Innodyne engine, and how they've vastly improved on the old mechanical fuel injection with Bosch injectors and computer control. But they're turboprops, not for helicopters, and they are out of my price range. So is there any updated alternative? Does anyone know anything about that Czech engine?

Third, what about silencing technology. I'd like to be able to take off without disturbing my neighbors so they don't call the police on me. What exactly is the source of that whine? Intake, or output? That whine is the first thing that has to go. I saw one muffler for the exhaust that was perforated stainless steel for the internal pipe, packed shredded fiberglass, and an outer metal tube, sort of like the old glass-packs from racing days. But this would still let out alot of noise. What harm would two or three baffles do? Surely wouldn't make that much backpressure, and they should much reduce noise? Anyone experimented?

And how would you support a 30" muffler in a Helicycle tail-boom? Seems like it would rattle off in no time, or stress the boom. Would need to be very light.
 

StanFoster

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Quantum: I personally think the T-62 turbine is very quiet...and oh does it sound s-w-e-e-t!! But that is my opinion....ok? The smell of the exhaust is just as nice.....


Actually...the rotor seems louder than the turbine.....


Stan
 

karlbamforth

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I've not heard a helicycle but most noise from a heli usually comes from the tailrotor.

I wouldn't worry about the neigbours, even if your engine was silent they will still notice a helicopter taking off.
 

akoschier

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T62

T62

This engine was designed in the 60 ies and was originally intended for a small helicopter which never was built. Subsequently is was used for GPU's.
Solar went belly up and Alturdyne in San Diego purchased the non-military rights and Sundstrand the Military.
Sunstrand still makes the APU version which is in most mititary helos- they sold it to the government for I believe around 90K last time I looked.
Those engines get overhauled and reconditioned at military Depots like Cherrypoint in NC- not surplussed. They will propably be surplussed once the government starts surplussing Back Hawks- you may get one as part of a Black Hawk- this will be no time soon.
Before the engines became APU's they were used in 30 and 60KW GPU's which have been/ are still being?surplussed. Occasionally you will find one in government auction or at E-bay.
Alturdyne may sell you a T62 now- I know they rebuild them- but this will not be cheap. A while back I asked them for a mechanical governor and was told to expect to pay 15K for it
Early on Garret realized this was going to be a business and they too offered an engine very similar- externally almost identical- which has some subtle design differences like a turbine rotor with no through bolt hole which has better life and a sqeeze film dampened roller bearing also for longer life.
They are now "Honeywell" and too make this engine- wont sell it to non goverment oganizations.
As you can see the supply is limited.
As for noise- noise is both created in the compressor and turbine and its very high frequency due to the 63000 RPM times number of compressor vanes/turbine blades.
This high frequency noise attenuates rapidly.
To make a flying muffling device this will have to be very low loss and fairly high tech- series of "Helmholtz resonators"- tuned to the predominant frequency.
Low loss, since the engine is a very low cycle pressure ratio machine which gets extremely fast burdened by pressure losses- this will really hurt SFC in a hurry which is already very poor.
If you want to muffle a stationary engine- put it in a fberglass walled box with a long vertical inlet pipe with fiberglass wool behind layers of chicken wire on the pipe inside to keep it put and for the exhaust use water spray.
You will not have to worry about engine cooling- turbines are self cooled.
Hope this helps.
avk
 

Quantum

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Stan, yes I hear that it is very quiet for a turbine, but when I watch all these videos at Homer, and testing of electronic governors it sure doesn't seem quiet.

I wouldn't worry about the neigbours, even if your engine was silent they will still notice a helicopter taking off.
LOL, maybe so...
Maybe I'm screwed, although I am also addressing rotor here.

akoschier, your description of T62 availability is about what I've perceived. I was hoping there is a more up-to-date version of a turboshaft, but I guess it hasn't happened.

My understanding was that Solar was owned by I-H, which then sold it to Caterpiller who owns it now; maybe this was the civilian rights. Makes sense that an industrial equipment company would want turbines, as their equipment is diesel-electric. So I have to wonder whether they have an up-to-date turbine our size? Worth looking in to.

Point well taken on a resonant muffler. If I'm gathering what you mean by 'fast-burdened by pressure losses', you're saying early flame-out? And yes this helps, thanks.
 

scott heger

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I have two matching specially made factory Solar T-62's with only factory run time on them. They were destined for APU aviation use and have records to go with them. They are rated at 100HP and have the large fuel controls , but the smaller turbine housing. Extra parts, manuals go with them. If any one is interested, let me know.
These are the only unused T-62 that I have ever seen, most are used or maybe rebuilt with plenty of time on them.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 

Quantum

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Scott, are these the A1?

I am told that the turbines from APUs are designed for intermittent use only?
 

brett s

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Not true for the Solar T62's - but they are designed to run at a constant throttle setting & load.
 

Quantum

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The T-62T-32's are designed for continuous duty (gensets), but I've read that the Solar T-62A-1A (& 2A or somesuch) variant which is used in APUs is only designed for intermittant, due to a difference in the combustion chamber.
 

brett s

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The T62-T-2B & T62-T-2A1 were used in CH-47's as APU's, had no restrictions on continuous operation - we'd run them for hours on end.

Other variants are used on UH-60's but I have no personal experience with them.
 

scott heger

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I know the t-62's I have carry no restrictions on run time. The Garrett J-100's are only to be used for 5 minutes I believe.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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akoschier

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T62 restrictions

T62 restrictions

Scott,
I dont know which T62 models you have-
The original -32 Solar engines had no restrictions since in those day's (1967) people were clueless about LCF and oxydation/corrosion/erosion were longer time phenomenons.
Once fracture mechanics became a science -stongly pushed by the misterious BAC Comet crashes - statistical material properties were painfully developed and engineering was able to predict failures statistically.
For ground (GPU) applications, this really did not matter that much as long as the housing enclosure was sturdy enough to prevent fragments from coming out and potentially hurting bystanders- not so for airborne APU's. Some installations do have additionally containment shrouds protecting flight critical hardware.
Late comercial Sunstrand APU's habe engine integral containment shrouds which are part of the turbine nozzle structure.
Thus later T 62 engines do have hour and cycle counters and a mandatory overhaul at -if I am not mistaken -1000 Cycles and 3000 Hours. The numbers are model dependent since some models have improved material turbine wheels and longer life bearings.
The engines made by Honeywell have other numbers and different turbine wheel designs with no hole through the turbine rotor which reduces the stresses at the stress critical rotor location which is where cracks start to grow from initial microcracks which are often part of the grain structure.
Mandatory overhaul replacement parts are the turbine wheel and the turbine roller bearing among others.
I do not have access to manuals at my current location as such I quote from memory which may be off since the last time I looked at this is a while back.
I assume this is more than you care for hearing.
avk
 

scott heger

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AVK,
When I referred to restrictions. I meant how long they can be run on a given cycle(flight), not that they can run forever without repair. You are only limitedwith the fuel you have for a flight for these T-62's. The Garrett J-100's were starter engines, and not meant to run for more than a few minutes to get the larger jet engine started.

Both of the engines I own were destined for aviation APU use and have factory double containment shrouds around the turbine section(these are very rare in t-62's). These are the 100 hp models with large fuel controls, but the smaller turbine housings used on the -2a type models, not the -32's. I will have to pull the Solar factory records I have to find the final dash numbers.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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akoschier

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T62

T62

Scott-

I assume the engines you own have hydromechanical controls and have a mechanical governor.
Do they have a bleed port on the combustor for ECS?
Containment shrouds by Solat are rare indeed.
I assume the engines were development prototypes.
What is the output gearbox and output speed?
You are selling any?
avk
 

scott heger

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avk, yes these engines were the only two ever madewith that dash number, and were special. They are production engines made for a aircraft, They have output drives on the gearbox straight back and at 90 degrees. I believe these were common gearboxes used. It is possible that these were destined for a specific aircraft that never went into production. I have a complete list of every model and quantity of T-62's that were made. These engines are on that list. Someone that is familiar with them said that they were very expensive. I believe he said they were $160,000 for the pair. They only have factory run time on them, and are still mounted on the shipping frames they came on.
The production engine log says they were delivered to the comnpany that produced the "Pregnant Guppy" modified transport aircraft(remember those?). They made a few of them, including turbine versions. I believe Airbus and Boeing used them to transport fuselages and rocket hulls.

both turbines are for sale.

Scott Heger,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
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akoschier

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T62-?

T62-?

Scott-
Do you have any pictures? What aboutthe other questions I asked (control/bleed)?
avk
 

scott heger

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I have to find the pictures. yes it has a mechanical governor. It also has a cannon plug with many pin connections into an electrical box box. don't know about the bleed port for sure, but I think it has a drain like feature of the bottom of the turbine section, but will have to take a look at it.

Scott Heger ,Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 

Jtravis1

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Be careful when looking for t62's. Do not buy the -32A. It looks almost identical to the -32 except the turbine housing is smaller. It was a "newer" design, but it was not as reliable. It spins faster as well.

There is a guy that tried to use one in a homebuilt helicopter and the whole aft section of the turbine cracked from the forces and broke off!!! Luckily no one was hurt. These are NOT airworthy as the turbine housing can not withstand the gyroscopic forces at play when airborne.

I will post a picture if I can find one...


A good deal of the noise comes off the intake. I would say approaching 50%. Turbines are loud...but the noise is high frequency and it dissipates quickly. At 100 feet they are quieter then a piston.
 
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circusboy90210

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I've not heard a helicycle but most noise from a heli usually comes from the tailrotor.

I wouldn't worry about the neigbours, even if your engine was silent they will still notice a helicopter taking off.
\

thank god your neighbors don't make your mortgage payment. :laser::tape:people need to stop worrying about what their neighbors do on their own land. used to be the richest man could live next to the poorest man & not complain about the trash in his yard. because that was democracy . live & let live. :humble::plane:
 

StanFoster

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I was at Homer Bells this summer and there were 8 Helicycles there. I can honestly say without a biased opinion....the turbine engines in them were the quietest when flying....On the ground...they are a little louder...but that sound is so nice...

The Helicycles would come in....and you would mainly hear the tail rotor....then when they went by....the sound of the swooshh of the turbine was nice. I actually wish the sound of the turbine were louder if they were flying over my house all the time! But....quieter is best. I have no doubt I will have the quietest aircraft around my airport, instead of the noisest that I was always told.

Stan
 
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