Training may likely be the issue why so many Euro Gyro Accidents

loftus

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One of the things that make gyros more tricky is defining the flight envelopes of gyros in particular, and from one model to the next. In FW most accidents begin and progress from a stall to a spin etc, so strong awareness of stall speed and the feel of an impending stall are large parts of staying out of trouble. Much more difficult to define I think in a gyro what these 'minimums' are. Personally as someone who got back into flying in general and picked up gyros later in life, I try to fly well within the limits of the aircraft, just because I am a bit of a scaredy cat. None of those tricks I see at airshows for me. Looking at the accident in Utah, I have my own conviction that the powerful powerplant, plus the large cross section of the canopy type fuselage contributed to the sudden loss of control, defining the limits imposed by these two things is not easy. In FW, power is almost always your friend, and accidents in Bonanzas etc are probably more as a result of complexity rather than power itself. In a gyro power can often be your downfall if not managed correctly either way.
 
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Smack

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I think the problem can be broken down into five components, listed in order of ease of solution.

REGULATION. How many hours does your country stipulate as the minimum training? 20? Something is wrong then. Try 40, with a realistic target of 60 for the Average Joe, before you solo.

TRAINING. What is the quality of your country's training? Is it up to date? Best Practice? Peer-reviewed? ADM emphasized as much as the pilot inputs?

USAGE. Does your country permit gyros for commercial activities? Ag. Ops. ? Well, make sure you are getting training over and above that required for recreational bimbling [q.v. the scumbag South African company who was sending young men on Ag. Ops in gyros after twenty hours training - to cut financial corners. 3 lives lost...]

ENVIRONMENTAL. Does your training focus on environmental factors peculiar to your own country or location? (flying a gyro in South Africa or Australia will be very different to flying in the UK or Sweden). Hot/High/Humid? Unusual winds? Wide-open wildernesses with nothing (but the occasional and fatal wire)?

CULTURAL. Basically, are you constitutionally-permitted to kill yourself doing the thing you love, with no-one caring so much? If so, pay even more attention to the above topics...
This 'cookie-cutter' approach with "regulation" is wrong as it does not take individual ability in to account.
Some 'get it' much sooner than others and some never 'get it' at all.
Just spouting off some number (20?40?60?) of government-knows-best hours is stupid.
Really? Turn the Average Joe loose to solo when he reaches the 'magic' number of hours regardless of his demonstrated ability?

Training should be based on the individual's mastery of the machine/maneuvers, NOT some arbitrary, regulation-determined number of hours.
Put your trust to determine such in a good CFI, not the government.
Brian
 

XXavier

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This 'cookie-cutter' approach with "regulation" is wrong as it does not take individual ability in to account.
Some 'get it' much sooner than others and some never 'get it' at all.
Just spouting off some number (20?40?60?) of government-knows-best hours is stupid.
Really? Turn the Average Joe loose to solo when he reaches the 'magic' number of hours regardless of his demonstrated ability?

Training should be based on the individual's mastery of the machine/maneuvers, NOT some arbitrary, regulation-determined number of hours.
Put your trust to determine such in a good CFI, not the government.
Brian


But there's an 'official minimum'... There are other relevant minima, that vary across countries. For instance, the required medical. For ultralights, and in Spain, it's the class 2 certificate. In France, a car driver's medical is enough. A big difference...
 

Smack

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So, Javier, does the government think that Spanish pilots are less healthy than French pilots?
Is there any data to suggest such?
If not, this is just another example of arbitrary government regulation.
Yes, we should all be healthy, but I'm VERY, VERY sure that you do not go get that class 2 check-up before every flight; thus, YOU (the individual) has the GREATEST responsibility to assure that you are healthy enough to pilot an aircraft on each occasion that you do so.
"Individual responsibility/ability" is the core message.
 

XXavier

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So, Javier, does the government think that Spanish pilots are less healthy than French pilots?
Is there any data to suggest such?
If not, this is just another example of arbitrary government regulation.
Yes, we should all be healthy, but I'm VERY, VERY sure that you do not go get that class 2 check-up before every flight; thus, YOU (the individual) has the GREATEST responsibility to assure that you are healthy enough to pilot an aircraft on each occasion that you do so.
"Individual responsibility/ability" is the core message.

Most governments care but little about the health or welfare of the governed. Instead, they endeavour to suppress liberties and to tighten regulations of all sorts. I feel the need for a revolution, but a real revolution, with terror and guillotines. There may be no other way to suppress that unbearable bureaucracy...
 

Gyro28866

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In my opinion, most individuals that are taught in a Euro-style gyro never get beyond flying the numbers.
When I transitioned into gyro's in the mid 90's. I flew with Ed Alderfer in his SxS and the Tandem Air Commands with Subaru engines.
You had to learn how to sail the rotor and using only a minimal amount of pre-rotor and mostly only the air flow to spin it up. You learned to visually see the blades turn into a flicker and then a blur to determine the rotors rpm and flight rpm. you did not go to full power until after there was more than sufficient rotor rpm. Then you add the fact of a chunky country boy in the right or rear seat. You had to fly the rotor, because on a higher density day. you might achieve 200' minute rate of climb. Sometimes we clawed for every inch of altitude we managed to squeeze out. You learned to manage the energy you felt within the rotor.
And you ain't lived until your flying under an old school set of 29' McCutchens' and in the blink of an eye and un-commanded un-expected, you are standing on your tail looking straight up almost vertical. You will go land and take a lunch break after that happens, and maybe even change the fruit of the looms.
Very few of the Euro guys could take an old school gyro and hand pat the blades and get it into the air and then go ring it out in the flight box and just go play hard. Most would flap the blades on take off; because they have never learned rotor management skills that are needed.
But, I will admit. My Tandem Dominator has made me a bit lazy!
 

loftus

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In my opinion, most individuals that are taught in a Euro-style gyro never get beyond flying the numbers.
When I transitioned into gyro's in the mid 90's. I flew with Ed Alderfer in his SxS and the Tandem Air Commands with Subaru engines.
You had to learn how to sail the rotor and using only a minimal amount of pre-rotor and mostly only the air flow to spin it up. You learned to visually see the blades turn into a flicker and then a blur to determine the rotors rpm and flight rpm. you did not go to full power until after there was more than sufficient rotor rpm. Then you add the fact of a chunky country boy in the right or rear seat. You had to fly the rotor, because on a higher density day. you might achieve 200' minute rate of climb. Sometimes we clawed for every inch of altitude we managed to squeeze out. You learned to manage the energy you felt within the rotor.
And you ain't lived until your flying under an old school set of 29' McCutchens' and in the blink of an eye and un-commanded un-expected, you are standing on your tail looking straight up almost vertical. You will go land and take a lunch break after that happens, and maybe even change the fruit of the looms.
Very few of the Euro guys could take an old school gyro and hand pat the blades and get it into the air and then go ring it out in the flight box and just go play hard. Most would flap the blades on take off; because they have never learned rotor management skills that are needed.
But, I will admit. My Tandem Dominator has made me a bit lazy!
Hats off to you guys for being so expert, but boy I don't want to get anywhere near any aircraft that is likely to put me 'in the blink of an eye and un-commanded and unexpected' 'standing on your tail lookin straight up almost vertical'.
 

TyroGyro

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Some 'get it' much sooner than others and some never 'get it' at all.
Just spouting off some number (20?40?60?) of government-knows-best hours is stupid.
Really? Turn the Average Joe loose to solo when he reaches the 'magic' number of hours regardless of his demonstrated ability?
I said "minimum."

Take note of the following statistics.

Of the Eurotub fatals

56% of dead pilots had < 100 hours gyro time, and 37% had < 50 hours gyro time...
 
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fara

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In my opinion, most individuals that are taught in a Euro-style gyro never get beyond flying the numbers.
When I transitioned into gyro's in the mid 90's. I flew with Ed Alderfer in his SxS and the Tandem Air Commands with Subaru engines.
You had to learn how to sail the rotor and using only a minimal amount of pre-rotor and mostly only the air flow to spin it up. You learned to visually see the blades turn into a flicker and then a blur to determine the rotors rpm and flight rpm. you did not go to full power until after there was more than sufficient rotor rpm. Then you add the fact of a chunky country boy in the right or rear seat. You had to fly the rotor, because on a higher density day. you might achieve 200' minute rate of climb. Sometimes we clawed for every inch of altitude we managed to squeeze out. You learned to manage the energy you felt within the rotor.
And you ain't lived until your flying under an old school set of 29' McCutchens' and in the blink of an eye and un-commanded un-expected, you are standing on your tail looking straight up almost vertical. You will go land and take a lunch break after that happens, and maybe even change the fruit of the looms.
Very few of the Euro guys could take an old school gyro and hand pat the blades and get it into the air and then go ring it out in the flight box and just go play hard. Most would flap the blades on take off; because they have never learned rotor management skills that are needed.
But, I will admit. My Tandem Dominator has made me a bit lazy!

McCutchens 29 foot blades are divergent. At above 70 mph they absolutely try to pitch you straight up not unexpected. You can control it but their natural tendency is divergent. They did that on que every time. I even know why they do that but there was no interest in fixing the problem so I could not help. Shorter McCutchens might be more stable
 

Vance

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In my opinion, most individuals that are taught in a Euro-style gyro never get beyond flying the numbers.
When I transitioned into gyro's in the mid 90's. I flew with Ed Alderfer in his SxS and the Tandem Air Commands with Subaru engines.
You had to learn how to sail the rotor and using only a minimal amount of pre-rotor and mostly only the air flow to spin it up. You learned to visually see the blades turn into a flicker and then a blur to determine the rotors rpm and flight rpm. you did not go to full power until after there was more than sufficient rotor rpm. Then you add the fact of a chunky country boy in the right or rear seat. You had to fly the rotor, because on a higher density day. you might achieve 200' minute rate of climb. Sometimes we clawed for every inch of altitude we managed to squeeze out. You learned to manage the energy you felt within the rotor.
And you ain't lived until your flying under an old school set of 29' McCutchens' and in the blink of an eye and un-commanded un-expected, you are standing on your tail looking straight up almost vertical. You will go land and take a lunch break after that happens, and maybe even change the fruit of the looms.
Very few of the Euro guys could take an old school gyro and hand pat the blades and get it into the air and then go ring it out in the flight box and just go play hard. Most would flap the blades on take off; because they have never learned rotor management skills that are needed.
But, I will admit. My Tandem Dominator has made me a bit lazy!
I may be misunderstanding what you are writing David.

When you write by the numbers are you describing paying too much attention to the instruments?

In my experience most people are not able to fly to the FAA practical test standards just using the instruments without primarily looking outside.

No one I have giving a flight review to had their head inside.

I encourage people to look outside and calibrate their sight picture with the instruments. With enough experience they can reduce their instrument sweeps.

If a gyroplane cannot climb out faster than 200 feet a minute my advice would be to terminate the flight.

In my opinion a gyroplane that has a severe uncomanded divergence in flight is not airworthy and I would park it until I found the cause and fixed it.

I feel it is important to understand that poor aviation decision making does not always kill the pilot and passenger.

Poor aviation decision making just increases the risk of killing the pilot and passenger.

Unfortunately many people who survive poor aviation decision making lower their decision making standards because it all worked out.
 
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Resasi

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We come late to the air.

We dreamt of flight before then eventually achieving it.

It is in small part instinctual, late come to, learned; large part experience.

The longer we survive, the more we learn, and sometimes... even that was not enough!
 

BEN S

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David, been there done that!!! Dave Bacon was right there with me at Spanish Forks for an elevator ride.
It was unreal.
 

GyrOZprey

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Glenn Kerr in his souped up Super Monarch with fresh Yamaha-power install also had the scary uncommanded rapid climb from his SkyWheels ...during a high-speed pass above the runway - at Brigham city ...at the end of our last ROTR meet there ...Jim & I were together in our Titanium flying ahead of him & ...just heard his disquiet over the radio! At higher-than- SW rotor design-intended airspeed ...only available with new higher-powered engines being installed .... they definitely have a speed-limit before doing the tip-twist thing & throwing the gyro into a steep uncommanded climb!
Steve Mcgowan, Glenn, David & others have all found the speed-limit of SkyWheels ...with high engine power! Fortunately they have all had good training in unstable gyro's (such as the Black!) ...and KNEW instinctively how to manage the power & pitch ... to keep rotor loaded and return to controlled flight! Kudos ...to all of you!
 

Tyger

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In our club at Anahuac, we look out for one another. We have discussed the traits of some newbies that exhibit risky behavior and tell them that this type of flying is not for them. Most heed the advice and sell their machines.
Can you give some examples of the risky behavior? It must be an interesting chat that gets them to up and sell their machines right away...
 

anthom

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Can you give some examples of the risky behavior? It must be an interesting chat that gets them to up and sell their machines right away...
Where did I write that they sell their machines "right away"? "Please, please don't assume things I did not actually say" (Your own quote from the thread "Fatal AR1 Crash"). Call me at 2817995115 if you need specific details. Also, read the FAA handbook "Risk Management". Lots of useful info there as well.
 
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chrisk

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Most governments care but little about the health or welfare of the governed. Instead, they endeavour to suppress liberties and to tighten regulations of all sorts. I feel the need for a revolution, but a real revolution, with terror and guillotines. There may be no other way to suppress that unbearable bureaucracy...
One must first understand the mind of a bureaucrat: Regulations are good, and the more convoluted, the better. Regulations employ people and make society safer/better. Licensing (and especially convoluted regulation) protects business because there is a barrier to competition. Licensing and regulations also provide good opportunities for graft, which is generally favored by the established group in power. Sometimes the graft is explicit, other times its through the hiring of consultants (who can magically navigate the convoluted rules).
 

WaspAir

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One must first understand the mind of a bureaucrat: Regulations are good, and the more convoluted, the better. Regulations employ people and make society safer/better. Licensing (and especially convoluted regulation) protects business because there is a barrier to competition. Licensing and regulations also provide good opportunities for graft, which is generally favored by the established group in power. Sometimes the graft is explicit, other times its through the hiring of consultants (who can magically navigate the convoluted rules).
My experience with the FAA has been rather different. I have encountered no graft, no business protectionism, and no intent to make things convoluted. Most of them are honestly trying to walk a difficult line between flying freedom and public safety. They don't always get it right, but the motives are not venal, corrupt, or unworthy.
 

Tyger

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Where did I write that they sell their machines "right away"? "Please, please don't assume things I did not actually say" (Your own quote from the thread "Fatal AR1 Crash"). Call me at 2817995115 if you need specific details. Also, read the FAA handbook "Risk Management". Lots of useful info there as well.
I apologise for seeming to imply something that you did not mean. You said "we... tell them that this type of flying is not for them. Most heed the advice and sell their machines." You did not say how long heeding the advice followed the giving of it; it just sounded like the one followed soon upon the other.
I do not need specific details of the risky behavior you brought up. I thought you might be able to share them generally, but I guess that is not the case.
I am familiar with all of the concepts in that handbook, and I spent 26 years in a combat-arms branch of the Army, so I do know a fair bit about risk management. But thanks for schooling me. I think I am now going to take a break from posting on this forum. Sorry for any offense given.
 
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