Training for Emergencies

All_In

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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
What's "modern" about the newer generation of gyroplanes amounts to three things:

1) sleek, sexy looking fuselage (which has no discernible impact on reliability)

2) avionics with GPS, fancy displays, and so on (which may enhance pilot awareness but not aircraft reliability)

3) Rotax engines instead of Macs, Subarus, etc. (which can provide meaningful reliability improvement)

What is not changed is:

a) the same old teetering rotor design that has been around since Eisenhower was in the White House, with all its shortcomings

b) design, test, manufacture, maintenance, fleet monitoring, and support that is not up to the level required of Standard Airworthiness aircraft

c) inherent inefficiency in an air driven rotary wing instead of a fixed wing

(d) VMC only capability

IMHO, (3) is nice to have, but absent progress on at least (b), if not also (a), (c) and (d), I won't be picking one of the modern designs for transportation.

I am still open to aircraft for fun (obviously, or I wouldn't fly balloons and gliders).
I agree with you.
(a) I did not know about this or it was causing accidents. Can you teach me more...

(b) Europe's biggest difference is they are all factory-built and suspect support is more like our certified aircraft. You can mitigate that with Abid's and many other factory-build assist or paying an experience A&P to install and maintain it as we had to do with the ARGON as they had no builder assist. Then fly Raul who has built several out to do the final inspection, rigging, test fly her, and training of both Henry Bolger and me so he can continue my training in the ARGO he has now been checked out in.

(c) They are draggy/slow.
In the USA to travel from coast to coast, it may take 2 or 3 days in a FW. This is the biggest difference between Europe and why gyroplane will never be used in the same percentage because of our long-distance travels and you can buy a faster 6 place FW and take the entire family from our local used fleet of FW's for less or the same price as a modern gyroplane.
But in a FW I fly to catch the tailwind at 10K or higher where the destination is the adventure, more like a bus trip. With a gyro the lower and slower sightseeing is one adventure and the destination is a second. More like a motorcycle.
Few can afford both FW and gyro so in the US it will be mainly FW's transportation of the entire family compared to Europe as it is cheaper and faster to travel to 2 or more states away.

(d) Has to VCM (visual meteorological conditions) most FW pilots even if instrument-rated fly only in good weather unless for business needs.
I enjoy flying on clear sky full moon nights and plan my pleasure trips accordingly.
 
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Mayfield

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I worked for a company that really tried to "develop" a modern gyroplane and gyrodyne family of aircraft. The company spent many millions of dollars. The technology simply did not scale well. Not having a tail rotor, tail rotor gearbox, main transmission, etc. did not appreciably reduce weight or complexity.
The last, in depth, serious, scientific studies of autorotative flight occurred in the period from the late 1920s to the late 1950s. The Pitcairns, Kellets, McCullochs, A&S, Fairey and others were commercial failures. Groen and Carter tried to reignite the autorotative aircraft torch. They also failed.
A fixed wing aircraft manufacturer, in a push back on Autogiro advertisements, reportedly said " the Autogiro flies half as fast with twice the horsepower." This hasn't changed much in the 90 years since then.
The plethora of "modern" gyroplanes available today appear to be acceptable sport aircraft. I have great respect for the developers of these machines but they are niche aircraft that in many ways are essentially Bensens with attractive bodies and more modern engines.
This is not meant as a denigration of these machines. Jet skis, dirt bikes, quads, etc. are toys and serve well in that role.
I have flown the J-2, the 18A, Bensen, Brock, my own design gyro, RAFs, modified RAFs, Sparrow Hawks, GBA Hawk 1, 2, 4 and 6. All were fun to fly. None were serious, commercially successful, aircraft.
There is nothing wrong with toys. I still want as many as possible.
 
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C. Beaty

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Eurotubs are low slung and racy; perhaps to the general public, that implies technical competence.
Ugly consumer goods don’t sell.
 

chrisk

Gyroplane CFI
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Round Rock TX
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Magni M24, Turbo Mooney 231
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I know of a 600 plus hour gyroplane pilot who took off mid field at near maximum takeoff weight and mushed it in.

“According to the pilot, the gyroplane was loaded 6 pounds below its maximum allowable gross weight when he taxied it for an intersection takeoff. From that takeoff point, about 2,300 ft. of runway remained available for the takeoff rather than the 5,505 ft. available full-length. At 45 knots, the pilot lifted the nose, and accelerated "in ground effect" for his planned climb speed of 55 knots, but the gyroplane would not accelerate past 48 knots. He further stated, "with the throttle fully advanced, and there was no indication of any engine malfunction."

I feel this is demonstrative of a low time gyroplane pilot mistake.

This reminds me of one of the more entertaining things an instructor experiences. I fly in Texas. During the summer with 100+ degree afternoons, a gyro at gross is slow to get off the ground. And in particular, gyros are not very forgiving of a take off with a high angle of attack when heavy and at high density altitude.

I've had more than one student where they kept the nose a bit high for take off on a very hot day. After they use 2000 feet of runway and still can't get more than 1 foot above the ground, I take the controls. Some of the students were a little shaken that they couldn't get the gyro to climb out. It makes for a good learning experience, and hopefully one they will not forget. --I do wish all of my students could experience this at least once.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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I worked for a company that really tried to "develop" a modern gyroplane and gyrodyne family of aircraft. The company spent many millions of dollars. The technology simply did not scale well. Not having a tail rotor, tail rotor gearbox, main transmission, etc. did not appreciably reduce weight or complexity.
The last, in depth, serious, scientific studies of autorotative flight occurred in the period from the late 1920s to the late 1950s. The Pitcairns, Kellets, McCullochs, A&S, Fairey and others were commercial failures. Groen and Carter tried to reignite the autorotative aircraft torch. They also failed.
A fixed wing aircraft manufacturer, in a push back on Autogiro advertisements, reportedly said " the Autogiro flies half as fast with twice the horsepower." This hasn't changed much in the 90 years since then.
The plethora of "modern" gyroplanes available today appear to be acceptable sport aircraft. I have great respect for the developers of these machines but they are niche aircraft that in many ways are essentially Bensens with attractive bodies and more modern engines.
This is not meant as a denigration of these machines. Jet skis, dirt bikes, quads, etc. are toys and serve well in that role.
I have flown the J-2, the 18A, Bensen, Brock, my own design gyro, RAFs, modified RAFs, Sparrow Hawks, GBA Hawk 1, 2, 4 and 6. All were fun to fly. None were serious, commercially successful, aircraft.
There is nothing wrong with toys. I still want as many as possible.


I don't know which company you are referring to that spent millions of $$. They weren't very smart.
You start with what works and not re-invent the wheel completely. That means you start with a marketable sport gyroplane first.
Pitcarin had it going on, just stopped because the war effort and military forced him to give patents to develop helicopters. J2 and 18A were really in recreational area 2 seaters. Heavy and suffered in takeoff performance in summer is all I have heard with 3 blade pitch adjustable complexity.

The quote from the airplane manufacturer ... well what else do you expect an airplane manufacturer to say about rotorcraft? What did he say about helicopters. They certainly weren't much better in that department.
I am sorry but the machines you have listed as have flown fly way different than say a Magni, AutoGyro, ELA, SilverLight and the rest.
A C150 will fly at 90 knots burning 5 to 5.5 gallons per hour and one of these new gyroplanes will fly at 90 knots burning 6.2 gallons per hour. Not a huge darn difference. If one is looking to go very fast like over 170 mph, gyroplane or rotorcraft isn't the game to play anyway

There is a place for a gyroplane in sport and in work. The gyroplane for work will not be a sport gyroplane. It needs some changes and they depend on what the work is intended to be. Taking a Cavalon and making it a Cavalon Pro and saying its for commercial usage doesn't make it so. The problem with Groen brothers and Carter Copter is/was that they have wet dreams of selling it to the military. They are smoking crack. That is a very long shot. They never developed anything (specially Carter Copter) that could actually sell or even be produced for other than military market. Carter Copter and Groen both never went into production because their wet dreams of selling to DoD never amounted to anything and will not amount to anything even today.
 
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anthom

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Texas
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AR1, Aviomania Genesis Sport
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Barring catastrophic mechanical failure I wonder if the difference between an emergency and a tragedy, the difference between a happy- and a sad outcome, is training? How many hours will it take me to get my Licence? As many as it takes. Don't stint on your training. Don't even think about rushing it.

Be humble, talk to other pilots and if you have a positive story to add about Emergencies, please add it to this thread.

That is the essence of flying safely.

Knowing about all the quirks of one's machine thoroughly helps a lot. Training helps to anticipate the possible outcomes and the types of corrective actions that can be taken in any possible situation. I've also had my share of sad outcomes that I can attribute to carelessness, lack of knowledge and training in gyroplanes.

IMHO, instructors should be training their students to deal with such emergency actions on a regular basis. Especially simulated engine failures. Putting an aircraft down safely means one can fly again another day.

Many years ago, I had a tandem Air Command with an EJ22 engine and belt re-drive. I had swapped out the engine and had not fastened the redrive bolts properly. During the test flight I heard a thump and then felt vibrations in the prop. I landed immediately. Of the four redrive bolts, three had come fully loose and one had actually departed the housing and struck the prop.

Sometimes a positive outcome can also depend on luck. But I wouldn't count on that.

The below picture is of an actual engine out landing with a student from 350 ft AGL. It was a very positive outcome.

Engine out.jpg
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
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Colorado front range
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stopped caring at 1000
I agree with you.
(a) I did not know about this or it was causing accidents. Can you teach me more...
The two blade, fixed collective, teetering rotor has two advantages: it is simple, making it relatively cheap and easy to build for amateurs, and it fits nicely into a hangar without taking up much width. It also has major disadvantages, including high sensitivity to low-g, and the susceptibility to "flap" or divergence if the necessary rotor management steps are not faithfully and consistently employed. Unfortunately, it is also essentially mandated by the definition of light sport design, discouraging anyone from producing a better system; presumably, this was done to ensure that the virtue of simplicity was maintaned, but also ensuring that the vices are carried along. Articulated systems avoid the low-g peril, offer far smoother operation, and allow pre-spin well beyond flight rpm so that no rotor management is required.
 

BEN S

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The time for the Fairey Rotodyne is now.
Due to reduced maintenance/operating costs.
The Rotordyne was not a commercial failure it was a political one.

Watch the Mustard deep dive, they cover it pretty Brits funding made them combine with existing Heli manufacturers who put the money toward helis.
It was not the noise of the tip jets that killed it.
And they had lots of orders for the ship.
 
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fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
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The two blade, fixed collective, teetering rotor has two advantages: it is simple, making it relatively cheap and easy to build for amateurs, and it fits nicely into a hangar without taking up much width. It also has major disadvantages, including high sensitivity to low-g, and the susceptibility to "flap" or divergence if the necessary rotor management steps are not faithfully and consistently employed. Unfortunately, it is also essentially mandated by the definition of light sport design, discouraging anyone from producing a better system; presumably, this was done to ensure that the virtue of simplicity was maintaned, but also ensuring that the vices are carried along. Articulated systems avoid the low-g peril, offer far smoother operation, and allow pre-spin well beyond flight rpm so that no rotor management is required.

yes and when you get there just go to a helicopter and that has already happened and that is why both 18A and J2 failed commercially. Repeat the same mistake and we will get the same results.

The negatives you write are easily avoided with sone training. There are negatives to flying an airplanes. Stall/spins are to this day the largest killer in GA accidents. Nobody is going blaming the airplanes for that.
helicopters are the proverbial thousand parts trying to fly in formation while trying to come apart. The smaller the heli the more it’s like chewing gum while jogging and rubbing your belly all at the same time.
Flying trikes in any turbulence you better get balls of steel. Many gyro pilots would puke out and run away like a little baby flying a trike at 2 pm in summer in Florida.
negatives exist in flying any kind of aircraft. Nothing is perfect.
 
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fara

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The time for the Fairey Rotodyne is now.
Due to reduced maintenance/operating costs.
The Rotordyne was not a commercial failure it was a political one.

Watch the Mustard deep dive, they cover it pretty Brits funding made them combine with existing Heli manufacturers who put the money toward helis.
It was not the noise of the tip jets that killed it.
And they had lots of orders for the ship.
I agree with that.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
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Bell 47G-3B-1 / A&S 18A / Phoebus C, etc.
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stopped caring at 1000
yes and when you get there just go to a helicopter and that has already happened and that is why both 18A and J2 failed commercially. Repeat the same mistake and we will get the same results.
If you are asserting that the J2 or the 18A would have been commercially successful with a Bensen-style rotor system I respectfully suggest that you are badly misinformed.

My point was that the Bensen-style rotor comes with some large design compromises, and that the light sport rules essentially prohibit meaningful improvement.
 

fara

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If you are asserting that the J2 or the 18A would have been commercially successful with a Bensen-style rotor system I respectfully suggest that you are badly misinformed.

My point was that the Bensen-style rotor comes with some large design compromises, and that the light sport rules essentially prohibit meaningful improvement.

No. I think 18A and J2 would have been successful if they were 500 pounds lighter and there was a sport pilot like category and license that they could be flown under and they were much simpler in design like a fixed pitch rotor system with minimal maintenance and hassle.
You are right that the rules in both US and Europe restrict us to these limitations but if we think there is enough of a market we can design non fixed pitch rotor system Gyroplanes as kits in the US as nothing stops us from doing so. I just think there is not enough of a market for them for the price point they would need to be at I would at that point personally suggest a helicopter.
 
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Doug Riley

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A couple more advantages of the Bensen rotor system: It avoids ground resonance, even with aggressive prerotation, and it is so simple that its strength and longevity are easily predicted. I suspect that those qualities contributed to its adoption in the Sport category.

Whether these good qualities justify our tolerating loss of control over airframe attitude at low/zero G is debatable. But as soon as we shift the flap hinges outboard from the spindle axis, we're back to some sort of swashplate or Doblhoff/Beaty "spider" pitch-control system (a swash variant).

I'd like to see some detailed research into autorotating teetering rotors. All of NACA's wind-tunnel work with gyro rotors was with Cierva-style articulated rotors. We could use numerical data on RRPM decay rates at various low disk angles (with their effects on rotor thrust and control power), and on the exact behavior of a teetering gyro rotor when exposed to negative disk AOA. ("Things go all to hell" is not that useful.) This would help us determine objectively how "inherently dangerous" (or not) a Bensen-style gyro rotor really is. There may be ways to shrink the coffin corners, in addition to H-stabs and CLT.

Certainly there are plenty of people in the aviation technical community who think these things are widowmakers, no matter what. The FAA EMDO inspector who signed off my first homebuilt Bensen certainly thought so. He signed anyway. He commented that his job was to protect the public, not me, and he'd let me strap myself to a rocket and light the fuse, as long as I did it far out in the desert.
 

DavePA11

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yes and when you get there just go to a helicopter and that has already happened and that is why both 18A and J2 failed commercially. Repeat the same mistake and we will get the same results.

The negatives you write are easily avoided with sone training. There are negatives to flying an airplanes. Stall/spins are to this day the largest killer in GA accidents. Nobody is going blaming the airplanes for that.
helicopters are the proverbial thousand parts trying to fly in formation while trying to come apart. The smaller the heli the more it’s like chewing gum while jogging and rubbing your belly all at the same time.
Flying trikes in any turbulence you better get balls of steel. Many gyro pilots would puke out and run away like a little baby flying a trike at 2 pm in summer in Florida.
negatives exist in flying any kind of aircraft. Nothing is perfect.

Agree about the trikes and turbulence. Really can only fly trikes early morning or late evening so they are only practical for playing around in the sky near the home airport…
 

fara

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Agree about the trikes and turbulence. Really can only fly trikes early morning or late evening so they are only practical for playing around in the sky near the home airport…
No. You mean you can only fly trikes mornings and evenings. Me and Larry flew trikes any time we needed to fly and doing cross countries from Oshkosh to Tampa through all day in July. Like I said you just need to develop those balls of steel. You only got to the plastic level yet :)

Kidding aside trikes are much more physical to fly and master great technique than airplanes or gyroplanes. Its not something anyone new to aviation should start when they are 60 years old. Its a young person's sport.
 
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Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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No. You mean you can only fly trikes mornings and evenings. Me and Larry flew trikes any time we needed to fly and doing cross countries from Oshkosh to Tampa through all day in July. Like I said you just need to develop those balls of steel. You only got to the plastic level yet :)

Kidding aside trikes are much more physical to fly and master great technique than airplanes or gyroplanes. Its not something anyone new to aviation should start when they are 60 years old. Its a young person's sport.
I feel using my testicals for making aviation decisions is not best practice.

I feel that survival is not a way to quantify the quality of aviation decision making.
 

fara

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I feel using my testicals for making aviation decisions is not best practice.

I feel that survival is not a way to quantify the quality of aviation decision making.
I feel using my testicals for making aviation decisions is not best practice.

I feel that survival is not a way to quantify the quality of aviation decision making.
:). Yeah I would advise using our testicles to do ADM.
I hope you know that was a joke
 

JETLAG03

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Agree about the trikes and turbulence. Really can only fly trikes early morning or late evening so they are only practical for playing around in the sky near the home airport…
Disagree, I only have 350h on a trike but flew here, mornings, mid day, afternoons and evenings. Most of us here in France do, do not fight the controls, let her fly.;). Been described as a wrestling match with an angry gorilla.
 
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