Training for Emergencies

Tyger

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I agree it'd be a lot different in a Cub.... or in anything with wings and ailerons ☺️
 

chrisk

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I am a bit surprised by what you say about a student and instructor stepping on opposite pedals. Surely if the instructor has to take control from the student he says "My aircraft", at which point the student should basically immediately go hands and feet off, no?
Happens all the time. A student comes in for a landing and puts the wrong rudder input in just before touchdown. The instructor fixes it.
 

Tyger

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I'll take your word for it but... as you say, the instructor fixes it by taking the aircraft, and a well-briefed student should immediately understand that hearing "my aircraft" means hands and feet all off.
Anyway, that's how it worked when I was training, and I actually don't recall wrong rudder inputs ever happening just before touchdown... ☺️
 

All_In

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...

Some people feel there is not much reason to practice emergency landings because the modern gyroplane engines are so reliable that it is unlikely for it to fail in flight.

As someone who has made successful emergency landings I can assure people engines do stop at inconvenient times and knowing which way the wind blows and having appropriate landing areas picked out before the engine goes quiet is an important part of learning to fly.
...
Has anyone ever actually told you there is no reason to practice emergency landings? I never heard anyone express no need to practice emergency landings in certified aircraft over the 40+ years I've been in aviation.
Hard to believe anyone in gyro ever would = what a fool.

At my piper dealership, we made them pay for extra training practicing them until they were automatic, and that was for certified aircraft engines. Basically, I made them learn the way I train for emergency landings. I used to explain why they have to pay more with us with a joke = I'm only protecting my 21 rental aircraft not you students!

I started asking what emergency water landing procedures you use in gyro's a year in advance specifically so I could practice them until automatic.
That thread did not turn out well.

I got Border Aeronautics the contract to pick up crashed FW aircraft for the insurance companies specifically to learn what damage occurred on what surfaces etc.
Only two were fatal to the humans one was a Mexican Najvo tiring to land in fog with prisoners at Tijuana but crashed on our side as TJ international is only 2 miles from the border. Hit wires on our side and ten souls lost.
Many were almost fatal to the aircraft.

With a certified or Rotax 900 series engine it is all about the PROBALLIY of a correctly installed and maintained engine going out in the TIME PERIOD you are putting yourself at risk. For the snake river trip is was 1.75 hours of its 2000 TBO. That equals 0.000875 and not much risk. But you have to practice emergency landing more than anyone else if you want to even take that short risk of flying over anything without a landing zone. I was with Micheal Burton who has practiced more than anyone else so there was little risk vs the huge reward of the adventure of a lifetime.
 
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Vance

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Has anyone ever actually told you there is no reason to practice emergency landings? I never heard anyone express no need to practice emergency landings in certified aircraft over the 40+ years I've been in aviation.
Hard to believe anyone in gyro ever would = what a fool.
Phil Bennett is a flight instructor in the UK who has written that he feels that practicing for engine outs is over emphasized in training in the UK because Rotax engines in the gyroplanes in the UK are so reliable.

From what Phil Bennett has posted; it appears to me he feels I must be doing something wrong because I have had a different experience with an engine problem approximately every 100 hours in three different Cavalons over 600 hours of flying; all powered by a Rotax 914.
 

Vance

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With a certified or Rotax 900 series engine it is all about the PROBALLIY of a correctly installed and maintained engine going out in the TIME PERIOD you are putting yourself at risk. For the snake river trip is was 1.75 hours of its 2000 TBO. That equals 0.000875 and not much risk. But you have to practice emergency landing more than anyone else if you want to even take that short risk of flying over anything without a landing zone. I was with Micheal Burton who has practiced more than anyone else so there was little risk vs the huge reward of the adventure of a lifetime.
If you have a compelling reason to fly to Catalina in low time experimental, amateur built 915 powered Argon as a low time gyroplane pilot with a passenger you should just do it.

It will probably turn out just fine.

I feel a good life vest, some sort of personal emergency locater and a pyrotechnic singling device would be useful safety equipment just in case things didn’t work out.

It appears to me the FAA over water safety equipment is not required in an experimental amateur build aircraft when flying beyond gliding distance to the shore.
 

All_In

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If you have a compelling reason to fly to Catalina in low time experimental, amateur built 915 powered Argon as a low time gyroplane pilot with a passenger you should just do it.

It will probably turn out just fine.

I feel a good life vest, some sort of personal emergency locater and a pyrotechnic singling device would be useful safety equipment just in case things didn’t work out.

It appears to me the FAA over water safety equipment is not required in an experimental amateur build aircraft when flying beyond gliding distance to the shore.
I think that is good advice.
Except I do not know why you retain your fantasy that I would fly without hundreds of practice emergency landings or ever think to fly such a low time 915 without a landing zone I could glide to until the fleet has more time to find all the bugs.
Your fantasy is scary and has nothing to do with my current questions to learn the best emergency landing procedures or the months of practice it will require before the fleet has more hours and I will have trained more than anyone else to prepare for that crossing. Told Ron we will fly to Catalina when we bring the Argon back from flying all contiguous 48 states. That will take months with almost all landings at engine idle = emergency landings has I do in FW to this day if flying all pilots. Ron will be a pilot too.
 
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Vance

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I think that is good advice.
Except I do not know why you retain your fantasy that I would fly without hundreds of practice emergency landings or ever think to fly such a low time 915 without a landing zone I could glide to until the fleet has more time to find all the bugs.
Your fantasy is scary and has nothing to do with my current questions to learn the best emergency landing procedures or the months of practice it will require before the fleet has more hours and I will have trained more than anyone else to prepare for that crossing. Told Ron we will fly to Catalina when we bring the Argon back from flying all contiguous 48 states. That will take months with almost all landings at engine idle = emergency landings has I do in FW to this day if flying all pilots. Ron will be a pilot too.
With months of practice you will still be a low time gyroplane pilot flying recently amateur built 915 powered Argon with a passenger over water beyond gliding distance to the shore.

The Rotax 914 was introduced in 1996 and the bugs that caused my engine outs are still not resolved. In my opinion to expect the 915 to be different is not reasonable.

The Cavalon was introduced in 2011 and the vapor lock challenge has still not been resolved.

In my opinion to imagine that an Argon is better engineered and better developed than a Cavalon is not reasonable.

I am comfortable flying and instructing in a 914 powered Cavalon and feel it is a good aircraft.

I try to minimize my time over terrain that makes an emergency landing problematic. One of the advantages of a gyroplane is its emergency landing capability.

As the pilot in command of a gyroplane; you can do what you want John.

You do not need my acquiescence to you’re the fantasies.
 

fara

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The Cavalon can overheat under the cowl in high desert heat. If you used ethanol based fuel above 6000 feet MSL then vapor lock in summer is almost guaranteed.
 

All_In

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How many hours are required to transition from a low-time gyroplane pilot to an experienced gyroplane pilot?
 

DavePA11

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I have found it takes me around 30-40 hours in a new aircraft flying it regularly to really feel comfortable flying it in mixed weather conditions. I assume others have different times more or less.

Some aircraft are harder for me, but have limited experience with different aircraft. The Aviat Husky has been the most difficult, but think that is because it’s the heaviest aircraft I have owned? It’s also after flying 800 hours so I thought it would be easier. Gyrocopter Sportcopter M912 was the easiest for me to learn and be comfortable flying, but maybe due to being the most responsive aircraft? But the gyros have the most to keep on top off compared to other aircraft such as remembering to disengage the pre-rotator on take off, assuring safe operation of rotor on the ground, using avionics without trim system, preventing flap on bumpy off airport surfaces, taxing and takeoff on slanted surfaces, etc. IDK. Each aircraft has its own unique characteristics and takes different time to learn. Think it’s up to the pilot, aircraft, and location flying…

I have flown Cessna 150, 152,172, gliders, Champs, Citabrias, Decathalons, J-3, PA-11, trikes, ultralights, AR-1, MTO, Apollo, M24, SC M912, and Aviat Husky. I found the reversed controls in the trikes odd, and least favorite to fly. Gyros have been the most fun, but the gliders, trikes, ultralights and M912 were not practical for actually flying to places which is an important criteria for me… Off topic again…

Interested in other opinions.
 

C. Beaty

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A gyro, with its wings going 500 mph while the rest of it goes 50 mph, is not the most efficient means of point to point transportation but it’s hard to beat for chasing feral hogs around Florida bayheads* where most of the flying is at treetop height. If the engine quits, no big deal; just an inconvenient walk.
A toy, not transportation.
*A Florida bayhead has nothing to do with saltwater, it’s normally a swampy depression in an otherwise flat terrain that’s overgrown with bay trees, vines and whatnot.
 
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Doug Riley

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Tyger:

Agreed as to those holes in the water! But they're fun toys...

Even motorcycles are mixed bag, as between toy and transpo. Heck, here in VT, old TR-4's and similar classic sports cars are lovingly stored through the winter (=11 months) and driven only on warm, dry summer days, of which we have two a year. Toy? Pretty much. Reliable transpo? Heck no.
 

Tyger

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Doug:
Agreed; I used to mess about in boats a lot... till I got my gyro. :giggle:
It was always lot of fun to sail up/across the river, say for lunch in Catskill (assuming wind and tide were favorable, ofc*) but it's sure a lot simpler and easier just to take a car across the Rip Van Winkle Bridge.**
I'm always reading aviation articles that say something like, "If you really need to get somewhere by a certain time, don't plan to fly there."
As far as motorcycles, I know a lot of guys who love 'em, but you won't ever catch me riding one!

* "Ignoranti quem portum petat, nullus suus ventus est" –Seneca
** The only bridge I know that's named after a fictional person
 
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All_In

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The industry and gyroplane have been changing at least for the last ten years I've been observing the market with the majority of new gyro pilots buying modern gyroplanes.

I'm glad I did not learn from the forum that boats were toys before I sailed the world for 20 years of my life. Hahahahahahahahahahaha

I agree Dave it is about 50 hours where you start feeling automatic/comfortable flying, driving, captaining, anything. Even racing horses it's about 50 hours.
I continue training in all of those for another 50 hours. At 100 hours for me, they have all become an extension of my body, and every maneuver is now automatic muscle memory. No thinking is required to control it like it is my fingers.

I do agree that Bensen era gyro Chuck and Doug have experience flying is more toys than transportation.

However my observation is Europe the modern gyroplane is being DEVELOPED and used specifically for TRANSPORATION. In a fast FW jet, you can fly out of their country in an hour or two. Unlike the USA they have no 250K fleet of used 50-year-old fixed-wing aircraft that can fly 4 to 6 people and they can buy for 1/2 the cost of a modern-day gyroplane.
They are using them in Europe almost exclusively for transportation and with more of them than there is in the USA with many fewer accidents. Which explains why the two around the world adventures were not flown by Americans who still consider them as toys. It is much more psychological than reality based on statics of European gyroplane accidents where there are few Bensen era gyroplanes flown as a 2 stroke toy and not for transportation compared to the USA.

With Europe using them more and more as an alternative to FW and two around the world flights with many, have informed PRA they fly to Cuba and all over the Keys.
I predict in 10 years or less that you will all agree that the modern gyroplane can be used for both toy and transportation. This is exactly what appeals to me over FW.

I'm always a first adapter so of course, I'm going to use them for both a toy and transportation just as the majority of European's are proving every day and adapted before I did.
 
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WaspAir

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What's "modern" about the newer generation of gyroplanes amounts to three things:

1) sleek, sexy looking fuselage (which has no discernible impact on reliability)

2) avionics with GPS, fancy displays, and so on (which may enhance pilot awareness but not aircraft reliability)

3) Rotax engines instead of Macs, Subarus, etc. (which can provide meaningful reliability improvement)

What is not changed is:

a) the same old teetering rotor design that has been around since Eisenhower was in the White House, with all its shortcomings

b) design, test, manufacture, maintenance, fleet monitoring, and support that is not up to the level required of Standard Airworthiness aircraft

c) inherent inefficiency in an air driven rotary wing instead of a fixed wing

(d) VMC only capability

IMHO, (3) is nice to have, but absent progress on at least (b), if not also (a), (c) and (d), I won't be picking one of the modern designs for transportation.

I am still open to aircraft for fun (obviously, or I wouldn't fly balloons and gliders).
 

Doug Riley

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THERE ya go. I'm a self-confessed "last adapter." Ned Ludd is my patron saint.

Sorry, gotta go check my flip phone...
 

Vance

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How many hours are required to transition from a low-time gyroplane pilot to an experienced gyroplane pilot?
I don’t have a number of hours to become a proficient gyroplane pilot John.

I still learn with every flight and I have around 2,300 hours flying gyroplanes.

I still make low time pilot mistakes.

Some people never learn.

I know of a 600 plus hour gyroplane pilot who took off mid field at near maximum takeoff weight and mushed it in.

“According to the pilot, the gyroplane was loaded 6 pounds below its maximum allowable gross weight when he taxied it for an intersection takeoff. From that takeoff point, about 2,300 ft. of runway remained available for the takeoff rather than the 5,505 ft. available full-length. At 45 knots, the pilot lifted the nose, and accelerated "in ground effect" for his planned climb speed of 55 knots, but the gyroplane would not accelerate past 48 knots. He further stated, "with the throttle fully advanced, and there was no indication of any engine malfunction."

I feel this is demonstrative of a low time gyroplane pilot mistake.

It is a lot like a fixed wing pilot who doesn’t get an instrument rating and regularly flies in instrument metrological conditions. It doesn’t mean they will crash; it only increases their chance of crashing and perhaps taking someone with them.

If you have a compelling reason to fly to Catalina knowing the risks just do it. You are the pilot in command and are responsible for explaining the risks accurately and truthfully to your passenger.

Please stop pretending the elevated risks don’t exist.

Flying over water beyond gliding distance to the shore simply increases the consequences of an engine failure just as flying an experimental, amateur built anything increases the risks of having an engine failure.

If you have a successful flight to Catalina that won’t prove anything because I have successful thirty minute gyroplane flights nearly every time I fly.
 
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