To be fair.....

LARRYEBOYER

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Jim, How are you! Good to see your posts. Any flying machine can have improvements, What gets in the way is money. Real expensive if it doesn't work and R & D ain't cheap, either. The RAF with a good stab is a good flying platform. The RAF with the dropped engine and a stepped keel with the stab in the prop wash is a real winner.Though boring to fly!!!.Take off, level off, set your rpm and cruise, dial in the electric trim,set back and cross your arms.
No more stick jockying. Point and go.I'll bet your tractor flies like that!
 

Steve Osborne

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Larry, that reminds me. I spent 6 hrs in Diamond DA-20 FW this year and it reminded me how much fun my RAF is to fly. It sure was boring in the FW.
 

Racer

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I have also done well in business by not putting down my competitors, I unintentionally got more work referred to me BY my competitors when they were too busy because they Knew I would not talk bad about them. Funny how that worked out, But the motto I live by is "What goes around comes around" I found I did best when I worried more about me customers than my competition.
 

Aussie_Paul

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Can't win.....

Can't win.....

....Dennis, Harry and others, I am sorry you took it that way. It was a genuine effort on my part to pat RAF on the back for the good things they have done for the gyroplane industry.

Firebird will succeed or fail on its own merit.

I also don't believe in knocking competition. I have owned several businesses with competition and would rather work together with competition, as I did helping the Oz SH agent with his noise problems.

I have just gone back and re read my opening post. There was much more patting on the back for RAF than anyone else has done. Geez.

There are facts and there is innuendo.

I am sorry if I upset some of you. My appologies. Yes I mentioned my plans with Firebird etc. Sorry again.

Aussie Paul. :)
 

gyromike

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Larry,

Have you performed the ASTM stability tests on your modified RAF yet?

I'm curious to see well your mod worked.
 

Friendly

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[ Competition will put pressure on those that can't meet acceptable standards. Looks like there is a test that will/is agreed upon regarding stability. If it doesn't pass it will be something that WILL finally HAVE TO change.[/QUOTE]

Probably one of the best moves the gyro industry can do for ITSELF.
 

LARRYEBOYER

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Mike. Gregg Gremminger posted on the forum and wrote articles about stability in the PRA magazine. I tried to apply his principals and the RAF passed to my estimation. I also applied during the testing of the mods I did to my own standards of what made sence to me. Example. I climbed at full power at best climb and pulled power. The other RAF I had would pitch up.The mod RAF would just nose over and start a descent at about the same airspeed. I did the straight and level at 4500 rpm. I turned it to the right or left at about a 30 degree bank and it started a descent but the airspeed remained about the same. When I did a 360, I had to hold back stick to maintain altitude, otherwise the nose would drop and the aircraft would descend. Everyone that has flown the Mod tell me it seems like they are flying a airplane. I (being a fixed wing private single engine land)would have to agree. Aussie Paul's associatees have applied the Austrailian standards of fixed wing stability to the mod and said the design exceeded their stability standards. I cannot say the RAF without a stab does or doesn't meet the standards. I have always flown the RAF with a stab and have never encountered any of the negative flying characteristics that many non-RAF pilots have reported so maybe I am a poor one to ask about stability. When I said the RAF with a Larry Martin ultimate stab flew very stable, I was told it was only a bandaid fix and that I only felt it was stable. Soooooo.... I only think my RAF MOD is a stable gyro. I fly it in wind, rain , sun ,heat, and it just flys great.
I was going flying last week and as I was going past my hanger one of the sail plane pilots said" Are you going up?" I said yeah, is there a problem? Barry said "the winds aloft were 35 knots at 280 under 3000 with turbulence. I smiled and said" wind is your friend!" He laughed and said" call me with a turbulence report". The wind was gusting down the runway at 12-20. I took off and climbed above 500 ft and felt a slight buffetting of the cabin and got some free altitude from the gust. I kept climbing and my ground speed went down to 4o plus knots but my indicated was almost 80. The gyro just handles that stuff with ease.I flew for about an hour but just stayed in the local area because with that wind, I wasn't going to go very far very fast if I headed west. I have lots of confidence in my RAF's ability to handle stuff most pilots want to avoid.So Mike , I don't know what other tests to do.I am not trying to sell anyone on the stepped keel, drop the engine idea. I don't have a prototype to push or an agenda to hide the fact that I ruined a perfectly good gyro by cutting up the keel and rearranging the engine.The RAF I fly is sweet. Just point it in the direction you want to go , trim it up, and set back and enjoy the ride.
 
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dragonflyerthom

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Mr Cool Larry B.

Just another day in the Air eh. I'm coming after ya Larry. I will do my mod soon. I think I will have the easiest yet and it will be like a rock as far as the keel will be concerned. Ha

Great post Larry.
 

Cobra Doc

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To be fair...

To be fair...

I couldn't resist. I just had to peek in. Yup, it's pretty much what I thought.
My wife is from Tennessee. In the part of Tennessee she is from, the all have the same opening that means trouble. When she is talking to someone and she utters the dreaded opening line, I suddenly find a reason to be elsewhere.
That line is "I don't mean no harm, but..."
AP, to be fair, I don't mean no harm, but, you did good patting RAF on the back. Right up to the point when you smacked them in the head with a bat. I hate to say it, but I saw it coming in the thread title.
RAF has done a good job of marketing the 2000 and gyros in general. It's up to the paying public and my (and LarryB's) industry to get their attention.
 

gyromike

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Thanks, Larry.

I don't recall you posting any results before, or maybe you did and I just missed it.

If your mod passes the ASTM stability tests, then it meets the accepted standard.
And if it's inexpensive to do, even better.
 

Hognose

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Gyro - 2.5! FW, hundreds not thousands. Helo, 0 (some day!)
Some credit for RAF -

- Enclosed gyro
- two seats
- 4 stroke power
- Heater
- Styling (never underestimate that)
- trim
- folding mast
- Good marketing and promotion (at least until Dan Haseloh died).
- Strong training emphasis in their marketing message

RAF has attracted many people to the sport. It took on the lead role that Air Command did during Dennis's ownership. Many people may go on to fly other aircraft (as Paul Bruty, Stan Foster, and I have done) but I'll always be grateful to Chuck Feil, Dofin Fritts, and RAF for my first gyro ride.

I want to dwell only on the positives at this moment, so I'll stop there.

In reference to various comments on bad-mouthing competitors, if you find yourself doing that, you should read an old (and still in print, and fast-reading) book. How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie. There is a story of a truck salesman there which is eerily similar to Stan's. Just goes to show you that there's nothing new in customer service. Treat people right, and you'll come out right. (I still run into former customers from my FBO, which we had to close, and am very glad that I can face them with a clear conscience. They miss the FBO more than I do).

cheers

-=K=-
 

mcbirdman

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Larry,

If it costs money to do something that makes a huge difference and especially if it increases safety quite a bit but still costs less than the original price I cannot see how anyone wouldn't take the time to make the change. Everyone wants to go flying and have fun - not go flying and come home a nervous wreck and worn out from having to work hard. People want an aircraft that they can count on because as humans we are vulnerable to mistakes in judgement and we shouldn't have to worry that a machine is trying working to take you down - instead it should want to keep flying.

I don't know if it flys anywhere as easy as a tractor but I know I can't set my trim with a button. It has to be twisted in mechanically.

Anyway, I am glad to see the work done regarding keel stepping and keel lengthening. Even if it costs more..... It has to be worth it. If everyone had them I wonder how much that would help the community. It would be safer as you know but it might send a message that it isn't a question or preference anymore...... it is a safety factor. Have fun.
 

chuter

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It looked like it had been constructed using a can opener and roofing tar. So Quality of construction is as important as design..

Hey Steve, slack up on us guys with less than perfect craftsman skills. It can be ugly and still fly well and be safe.:yo:
 

Harry_S.

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You're spot on there, Steve.

I've seen 2 or 3 RAF's that I wouldn't even sit in, let alone would I fly in.

At Bensen Days, some 6 yrs. back, I saw a young teenager using a hacksaw to cut a bolt holding the bracket, holding the bracket that held the ignition coil. As he was cutting the bolt, the saw blade was cutting into the engiine cradle.

There was a man standing next to him with some hardware in his hand...I assumed it was his father...watching the lad. I moved to the side a bit and the man looked at me, I said that blade is cutting into the cradle, He nodded and went back to watching the boy. I shook my head and walked off.

The general appearance of that machine would have turned your stomach.


Cheers :)

PS I agree with your post above. When I go to stir up some air, I want fly my machine, I'm not content to just be along for the ride. That's why I like helos, it requires an operating pilot.
 

dragonflyerthom

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You have a good point there Steve. Another thing that isn't talked about on these machines is the setup. Who set it up and trimmed it out? Did they do a good job? I saw real fast that if it isn't set up properly then you will be all over the sky. No one has ever talked about this as far as I know. So here is another concern withe the RAF. You can't just build one and then jump in it and fly it. It has to be dialed in and be right or it will be squirrrrrrley.

McB being a modeler you know something about the setup of models. Until they are setup they aren't stable.
 
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mcbirdman

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That is true they need to be setup if they aren't stable by design. Such as when they need to have the stab set with negative pitch. That will only make it balance out at certain speeds and makes it unstable unless you are at the Sweet spot where it all works. The Little Wing does not have to try have this negative angle of incedence and should be out of the box stable without trying to overcome all the aerodynamic problems HTL has as long as the hang test has been performed.

Yea Steve I am going to assume that you are talking about mine. It is the first project gyro I have built. Lots to learn in terms of metal and welding and covering. The frame is overbuilt as much as I have previously admitted overpainting which is approximently how full of BS you are about your comments. You are only ASSUMING the worst for something built strong as a tank and forgiving as I am for you being desperate to try to make yourself look safer I suppose. Before it was covered it was at the Texas convention and the only bad feedback I had on it was to change the ends on the rear supports. I did, but I also remember someone pointing out the FAA official talking things over with another in discussion with safety issues, stability and the later forthcoming standards and using my machine as an example of how to do it. Ron looked it over and had me add one brace to the airframe but that was it. He told me how forgiving this tough frame was with all it's triangular bracing and tough steel frame. I made all the changes as suggested by anyone and accepted it openly.

Within the next 2 times I have taken the time to bring my machine to a convention I have an RAF instructor act just like you saying he wouldn't be caught dead in this machine. Well, that is almost funny if it wasn't so ironic and telling. Here is an example of a builder who has done his best with a proven design with good handling characteristics and a scaled down version of the safest design known in history and you can't see what it can do beyond the paint job. Hmmm that same problem comes to mind when you guys stand there admiring yours....

To be perfectly honest - I am a beginner in regards to flying gyros. If I were (and might) to recover the machine to save weight OR because I have a mishap and turn it over..... I would end up recovering it to fix it anyway. I know that I am most vulnerable during this stage where we are flying it for the first time and if it will fly with it's warts that any TRULY handbuilt aircraft has..... then I won't worry about it. I would much rather be sitting on my roll cage than in a fiberglass enclosure that could get hit from the blade.

I will always remember the frustrated people that came up to me after this person put more than his two cents in and then was going to call the FAA if it flew because none of it was about safety as much as it was about paybacks because I am so verbal about the RAF that I was going to buy. Here we pulled up and from what I was told by others..... people converged like a magnet on the aircraft to get a look. I will also remember all those others who jumped right in trying to get it prepared for some ground runs helping in the way I have always thought the gyro community was built - offering help and advise. To that one - and now two persons who would rather find fault with an aircraft that was not built for show but for fun, learning, stability and safety with redundent bracing and overbuilt structure. If there truly was a problem I noticed I would step forward and be specific, not just stand around and do what you guys accused Aussie Paul of doing just a few days ago. Sure looks poor ,a represenative of RAF trying to do what you guys were quick to point out on a single first time builder. The problem was definately not about paint chips as much as the chips on you RAF guys shoulders by many other people. How is the PRA going to grow if we not only accept poor designs because we don't want to talk about it but have represenatives not offering true help when there is a problem to be addressed?
Being full aware of the larger picture....and with that bias that would easily let you ASSUME there was a problem other than what we were working on...... Heck, with all that magazine reading how would you have time to know the details of what we did? I will ASSUME your reasons for acting this way are not as much as a serious concern but a payback for the constant bombardment of comments you face just by the design of your machine. If it was a true concern any other person would have rolled up their sleeves and helped like many other people did that way. We were there for fun and sharing. Kinda hard to fix a chip like that. I can fix the paint but I know the design is right. I also want to thank those who were not standing around critising but showed a genuine willingness to help us get her in the air. It has not been a rushed through project as Steve assumes but most of you know that. Seriously, it means a lot to me the people that came up to me and showed me what members will do for each other. I have seen it on this forum betwen others but I got more than a taste of it last year. I don't know if I will bring it next year. It isn't that I ever even thought I would get any kind of award for anything but it is sure strange to me that people can ohh and Awww about a machines paintjob, the attention to detail in a finished kit - scoop up awards for their efforts and know that a machine that has taken XXXX number of times the amount of patience and effort to produce a scratchbuilt but much more safe and stable machine will not get the same recognition. It is more of a popularity contest in my opinion when paint matters more than function. That is why I can see why other tractor builders just go for form and function but end up getting noticed by their accomplishments - not the glitter. Perhaps that is the better way. He seems to know what he is doing and people have taken notice. I think people want more.

Yea, I am pretty tired of trying to defend personal attacks on my abilities, tired of the unrelated attacks on me that have nothing to do with the model I choose when I am concerned about the losses of friends playing with other types. I am disheartened by the time and losses that continue while people won't make safety the priority that we need to stop the gyro community from losing numbers not only from crashes but the resulting lack of interest and comments repeated at airports trickling out to the general public.

I would take any stable machine that had to be built by hand over any unstable machine that I simply had to follow directions for to build that HAS proven unsafe characteristics without hesitation. I wonder, if you happened to ask Andy Keech what he thought about the machine you were flying Steve? Certainly Andy knows what his machine is capable of and what he was looking for in regards to proven performance. I wonder if he had gotton the chance to tell you what he thinks - if all of a sudden you would see that his machine doesn't look so good. Andy is very vocal with his feelings of stability.

Believe it or not I have seen BEAUTIFUL machines reduced to a pile of junk - what good is a beautiful machine that wants to diverge compared to one that is built with many added safety features but looks a bit rougher. You guys always say ohhh so bad on the crash and it was such a beautiful piece of machinery too ! A showpiece ! I will choose function over form any day. Anyone that has actually BUILT one or two of these should know it IS NOT what STEVE or any spiteful RAF instructor is ASSUMING. You guys are frustrated for the attention and just trying another Stab at me. Bring... I mean PUT ONE ON ! Do whatever else it takes to make it what an autogyro is capable of. The baseline has been established and in many ways we have fallen short time and again.

If I even thought that it was unsafe I wouldn't be putting this effort into it. It will fly. Too bad I have the impression that you don't want it to just so I won't be a thorn in your side. Oh yea, and all those magazine subscriptions below your tagline that at first glance look like qualifications? Well, at least it means you have you seen the photos. Do you read the articles?

If you guys knew what it took to accomplish what I did - blemishes and all.... you would know exactly how strong that machine is and wouldn't have said the things that an RAF instructor was saying as soon as we arrived. I know that you guys like to admire your paint jobs on your machines that makes them sparkle but there is alot more to it than that and I have been more than honest here on the forum that I know I put too much paint on the gyro but soooooo what? I even have taken the time to install a redundant control arm but the most important part..... the head I did not make so what is going to fall off?

Anyway Steve thanks for the snide comments. It was expected of you given your posts... You Do fly an RAF don't you? (thanks harry).
 
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mcbirdman

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Steve, you are a kit boxer. You had the advantage of following directions if you choose to read and follow them to the end. But not even on the same level as scratch building you don't even know what I did but you want to pull punches.

Up front on here for years threads:
http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=948&page=2&highlight=michigan+single+place


Somehow you guys always want to drag Little Wing into the mix which puts me in a bad position. Ron knows how he feels and approaches it with an attitude that he just stays out of it while his machines go out there and do marvoulous things in a positive way. I have seen what they do and chose to follow that path but when I argue about the safe days of gyros of yesteryear you drag Ron indirectly into it the same as you didn't listen to Aussie Paul and assumed he ONLY was trying to make a point on HIS machine which is typical for you. You can't stay on the subject of something long enough to have it be resolved and you keep showing up in other threads that have run off topic. Now you are trying to talk about my machine to go off on some other trip away from topic. That is why RAF won't have to change and that is why the community will continue to suffer indirectly because the needed significant changes needed to create a truly safe machine as we used to have that established the safety records is being touted in a machine that has required so much attention and bad results that it will continue to be sold as a kit boxer with a dangerous tendency. I don't want to undue everything Ron has done to help improve the record of safety it once was. I don't think that I should have to be quiet about what stability is and it doesn't have to be a tractor. It just seems that so far the easiest way to accomplish proven stability is to look at the past and see what worked and see where we are now. It isn't good so something needs to be changed. How you guys can fly something known to be unsafe by design and then look at something I build with many duel safety attributes and poo poo it is laughable if it wasn't such a serious problem. I think others see how ridiculous the situation is and see the truth of what is going on and will use it to determine what is acceptable and what is not. Flying is suppossed to be fun. Building an aircraft to save money and fly it at least as safely as GA should be an obtainable goal. Unfortunately all kits out there are not required to be as forgiving, and all designs come with a penalty of some sort that has to be weighed and accepted.

Why don't you do another vote along the lines of choices between flying in a stable machine with a rollcage and beefy frame overbuilt and heavy with a thick covercoat or flying one of your children in a beautiful fiberglass egg with a stability problem that can only be minimized and probably not so likely to have a problem if the pilot has a lot of hours.

A logical person would look at the history, the design and consider all the dual safety advantages obtained with certain designs. Another person will just go for a futuristic design or something that looks cool. What I am telling you is that -

Looks are decieving. You often get much more than you are looking at - whether you want it or not.


According to what everyone tried to tell me and the directions I could gleam from the internet, and airplane builders..... there is Nitrate dope to seal it, then more nitrate and then butarate dope and then silver dope to protect it from UV and then yellow and then it didn't cover the yellow after some coats so I found out I needed a white base coat so I did that and then put some yellow on it...... So, other than putting on way too much weight on it and learning to cover it..... What makes it so bad? It is just an assumption on your part and it was aimed at discrediting me for all the many times more work it took to build this than you took assembling yours. Making all the brackets and tabs take time and the more you work with the metal the more you can appreciate the strength of the componants.

Since we aren't just bolting together CAD designed and CNC'd parts it is very easy to have a homebuilt look - just like the original machines. We aren't a production company producing kits that just bolt together. It would seem you have less of an excuse for a poor finish than us who had to build it all up before we could even assemble it, let alone paint it.

Thom, to be more clear - With the tail in the back, no incedence, the hang test complete and the centered stick - what setup? The stick is centered by springs and there isn't really anything like pulleys or cables to adjust..... It should fly fine - by DESIGN.

This looks good to me and IS airworthy, stable and safe.
 

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Harry_S.

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James;

Those pics show a fine looking aircraft but, not meaning to be facetious, it looks to me as it should have some stiff wings on it.

Now, don't puff up and blow up on me for what I saw, or, what my impression was when I saw the photos.

Now, if I ever have the opportunity to fly a similar gyro, I may be impressed with it's flyability, but, because I was first introduced to the gyro with the BENSEN...I think gyros should have the prop in the back. Just my preference. Make sense?!


Cheers :)
 

mcbirdman

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Steve, it is very simple. Are you kidding me? Oh... dugh that was YOUR machine? You are disingenuous.

You do not know what it means to scratch build. The frame was done by Tig if you know what that is. Not everyone is great at everything. I know that a paint job affects the look only and not the quality of what is inside. No wonder the last part of my long and apparently wasted post was not understood by you. To be truthful still, I believe you are smarter than you act and you know exactly what you are doing by playing ignorent of both the work I have done and your attempt to diminish my work. You know it doesn't make your machine any different in any way even with this diversionary tactic. The problem is still yours. You bought it, own it and are responsible for it. What you fail to realize is that I don't think people like you should have something like pilot error pinned on you for making what would otherwise be a minor mistake in a stable machine. I am fighting for change and you are just fighting. I don't even have a machine that acts that way. I care about my fellow pilots, even you.

You guys spend a lot of time on painting something that has bigger issues from the get go. People stand up with specific areas of concern but what do you do? You pretend to not know it is my machine, it is in my photo sign in on every post. You are soooo smooth. You, like the other are good at saying one thing when you mean something else. When your nose is put to it you run off in another direction to divert from your comments or specifics. In my case acting all surprised about it being my a/c and expecting me or others not to realize the obvious angle of unrelated attack. Just shows your weakness or frustration to the questions at hand. Look - it is nothing new, nothing that hasn't been discussed and you guys want to take it out on a guy that didn't follow through with the RAF training and purchase and instead chose to follow what seems to be a much better concept regarding performance and design given the Safety priorities I follow. I am not the devils advocate and Chuck is not the devil. Yes I see your eagerness to protect the design you have chosen but you choose to accept everything about it which includes major shortcomings. You "married" it, it is your path, not mine. I didnt have to have it to know not to "marry" it.

I have flown RAF, I have almost bought RAF. I read about RAF. I have flown Sparrowhawk, Parson's trainer, FW and modeling tell me that there is a serious problem. If I am wrong about any of this.... and you are saying I act like and expert tell me where I am wrong Steve. I still have the original brochure that says "finally - a safe and affordable cross country gyroplane".... Does that make it so? I really WISH it were true because it would have been a lot easier for me to be a kit boxer than a scratch builder. I knew safety mattered most and that meant doing whatever it took, even if it was harder and took longer to accomplish.

I have watched friends build machines just like yours that did look beautiful ending up looking worse than that ebay RAF machine balled up. You are decieved by design and ignore logic. Emotionally biased and factory brainwashed into their idea of a safe gyro. There is not much more I can say. One of the remaining 2 RAF friends I have is grounded to health reasons and the other, after rolling his machine is finally yeilding to family pressure to sell the RAF.

You may be having fun but the end result I keep seeing is mostly the same except for a lucky few. All of the 6 machines I knew, + the green one all looked great but what matters more? Looking production quality or having a properly designed and overbuilt forgiving machine? You bought what you did and so did I. It isn't the paint, it is much more than you will ever admit. Your assumptions were not only rude but wrong. It is easy for you to hate someone that wouldn't even want what you have. I just am not interested in such a compromise.

Lastly, since you don't seem to comprehend detailed explanations but apparently are just trying to pick on me also - You and the CFI whom acted inappropriately didn't bother to tell me of any concerns. You guys make me sick the length you will go to keep off the topic.

Tell me where I got it wrong Steve. Too many people have been hurt by not knowing what they buy. Too many hurt from a poor design the company recommends against fixing properly while they continue to sell more kits with the same antiquedated design fraught with problems and leaves it up to people like you to try to deal with. It can be improved by a bandaid but not nearly enough to make it the safe machine that you guys been claiming. It still has nasty unacceptable traits not found in newer machines and you guys get mad at us saying it is hurting the gyro community. Tell me I have it wrong or any of this isn't true Steve. I am not an expert but I am knowledgable and logical. I am tired of you guys saying this stuff isn't true when I have been watching it go on for too many years. Tell me where I am wrong Steve. It doesn't take an expert to see this stuff. Maybe you are the expert to explain how this is just a big understanding.

Don't insult my intelligance with your assumption that because I didn't cover well I can't build well or cover the areas that matter most. For me, it starts with a design worth building. All your model building and FW training and you can't see the multitude of problems? Tell me where I am wrong, I think it takes a certain kind of person to ignore all these shortcomings to invest my time in that. If you accept those risks have at it but I would suggest that you not compare my LW to your RAF. That is at opposite ends of safety, handling, performance, pilot workload and history that really makes it hard to read what you are writing about. Anything beyond this is just silly and spiteful which I think is what this is about anyway. (+ the time of the year maybe ) Go out and do what you want it isn't me going to stop you or change your decisions or direction. I am in the process of load testing the airframe and struts on the 2 place . Yea, I do know how strong my frame is and how much it can help to have a strong one. Have fun - go get some fresh air. We are BOTH in here too much.
 
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Aussie_Paul

A reforming stirrer!!!!!
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
4,441
Location
Ballarat Australia
Aircraft
None at the moment.
Total Flight Time
Since 1982 Gyro 5000+ mostly instructing, and approx. 200 fixed wing in the late 1960s.
James.....

James.....

.....I have flown a little Wing and know just how stable they are. I have only flown 2 gyros that would be in the same stability arena as your tractor.

They are the Magni and my Hybrid. My Hybrid would not have as wide a stability speed envelop due to the sloping of the RAF cabin. I really needed to do some more testing with a much larger h/stab. I will do that with Firebird. The Firebird h/stab is huge. We can gradually reduce the size if flight testing proves it necessary.

In saying all of that my preference is for the pusher side by side seating arrangement, not a tractor. Now a choice re stable tractor and stable pusher.

Now I can have my cake and eat it to. :):)

Aussie Paul. :)
 
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