Thrust Numbers

WHY

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HI Murray

One of the great pioneers in gyro's, Mr. Jay Carter Sr. related a story to me about his early experiences in experimenting with a open frame tractor style gyro.

Seems like he was unable to get the early model to fly because it seemed under powered, so he put a bigger engine on it and it seems to even be worse. As it turnes out he was to discover that by building a small reasonable fairing from the engine back to the cockpit area that would get the prop blast off of him then things worked fine.

It seems that his body was acting as a reverse thuster, the more power applied the less thrust!!!!!!!

Tony
 

WHY

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BTW that is one clever design.

Tony
 

ccluck

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Murray's design sure answered my question : are there tractor tricycle gear gyros? Seems like this is a great potential combination, tractor stability without that weird taildragger ground handling behavior to deal with.

So what are the prospects, Murray ? Do you expect this to pan out based on your flight tests so far ? What's next on the development program ?
 

gyromike

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I think if I did a tractor, it would have wings and look eerily like the 701 in Udi's post.
Those things are so ugly, they're cute!

I want one. :)
 

Murray Barker

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Will try to answer all your questions.

The design is basically mine although it started out as a copy of a balsa wood model gyro a friend of mine has, but that wouldnt work for a lot of reasons.

The original prop was a 68 Inch in flight adjustable IVO and with that I got 250LBS of thrust,it all went downhill from there...

The "reverse thrust" effect is fact. At full power the thrust in tractor configeration is all over the place, but in pusher it was in a nice defined area.

When I get some time I will start to build some fairings over the engine and behind the seat to the tail.

It weighs 352 LBS,a bit heavy but thats with electric start,prerotator, large battery etc.
 

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WHY

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HI Murray

looking forwrd to that fairing, i'm sure it will be a work or art , as the workmanship on that machine is first class, also looks like your assistant setting on the floor there is giving some last minute advice.

Tony
 

Murray Barker

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Thats my best mate Leo.

If you wonder who loves you more out of your wife or your dog try this little test.

Lock them both in the trunk of your car for an hour then open the door,I bet I know which one is glad to see you and wants to lick your face.
 
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scottessex

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Doug Riley

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Yes, I think it's the extra labor and skills involved.

It's POSSIBLE to build an open-frame tractor gyro in a Bensen-like config; putting it crudely, you move the engine forward to the (former) pilot area and sit the pilot behind the mast, where the engine was. A couple examples of this were the Ikenga and the Jeri-copter (both covered in the PRA mag 20-ish years ago). The Ikenga, at least, flew.

The disadvantages of this setup, however, are horrendous. The noise, exhaust heat and 100 mph slipstream blast of the engine all bathe the pilot in joy. Your feet will poke into the prop in a frontal crash. Even worse, that slipstream blast hitting open frame elements and exposed pilot creates a huge drag penalty -- at 50 mph at wide-open throttle, about four times higher than the drag of the same pilot and frame elements in the pusher config.

So rational designers build an enclosed, streamlined fuselage behind the tractor prop. This involves either a fiberglass "boat," good aircraft sheet-metal work a la Cessna, welded tube and rag, or perhaps aluminum angle/tube and rag. All involve quite a bit more skill and time to build than a Bensen erector-set rig, though you end up with something that many see as more elegant and valuable.

For some of us, the wide-open, flying lawnchair sensation is most of the fun of a gyro anyway. I'd love to have a Little Wing, though, if I had three or six Bensens' worth of time on my hands to build it.
 

phantom

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I seem to remember a tube frame tractor gyro that was like a bensen but with two tails, a seat behind the mast and the engine out front in a nice streamlined cowling, I think it was from tennessee,this would have been about 1973 to 75 but I don't know if it ever flew but it sure looked different than the gyros of the day.

Norm
 

okikuma

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Norm,

Perhaps you are thinking of the Ikenga 530Z

Wayne
 

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jany77

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tractor gyro

tractor gyro

this is very interesting,the original little wing first flew without fabric cover with mac engine,also there is French tractor I believe flying with 503 ,the video can be found on youtube,another example would be Russian barsik which succesfuly fly with simonini victor engine ,so all these gyroplanes fly on 50 hp +- ,I don't know about mac I personaly don't believe it has 72 hp with regular 100 ll gas
 

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Jean Claude

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By placing the propeller at the front, we can choose a larger diameter. So the performance is better. Unobstructed, the engine can dispense with its cooling fan. Several more HP then become freely available for propulsion. Also, Completely eliminate the suction drag at the rear of the fairing is easy. Many HP are no needed during cruise level. Because of all this, not much additional wind on the windshield.
The propeller is also much quieter since it works in undisturbed air. In addition, pebbles lifted from the track by the wheels can no longer reach, and she is more likely to caught up various objects accidentally fallen in flight (mobile phone, car keys, helmet visor, etc.), with consequences sometimes dramatic.
In the event of a frontal impact, the engine is a shield for the driver, instead of a projectile traitor. Just my theoretical opinion on the tractive propeller.
 

Brent Drake

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I know I'm tired of flying small gyro's with just enough HP to fly. With a climb rate of less than 100 ft min. When building, if it's only a few hundred more to get a bigger engine, just do it.
 

Jean Claude

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Theoretical advantage of tractor

 

Jazzenjohn

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I've seen several posts that discuss the theoretical advantages of tractors over pushers, but real world flying examples like the Wallis gyros, the Hinchman racer and especially the Carlinator all have very high performance that aren't outperformed by tractors much, if at all.

It's interesting that the 2 gyros competing for most of the records are so far apart in design. The short propped pusher Wallis's and the comparably long propped tractor Little Wing.

I still believe the most efficient gyro ever built is the Carlinator. It flies the most weight with the least HP at the fastest speeds with the lowest fuel burn of any gyro.
 
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