Thoughts on the RAF 2000

eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
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I have flown my RAF for 400 hrs in the last three years and think the RAF is the best buy

for the money,my gyro has a heater,it is can be flown doors on/off,I have a nice aviation

radio/transponder/with mode C,it allows me acess to controlled airports,I fly cross country

at 85-95 MPH,its safe,fun,and rides well in strong winds/turbulence. The bad rap it has

is not from the High Thrust Line (HTL) but from the lack of a good horizontal stabalizor.

In my opinion the Boyer stab is the best available I live at a high altitude and

My Subaru engine makes 230 HP,the naysayers felt that I wouldn't be around very

long with that much HP,my high thrust line RAF and I are still here,I am also using the

stock RAF redrive unit with flawless results and I have the original belt on it.

On the down side its a little cramped inside,but not too bad,I burn a lot of fuel with my

big engine (8 gal an hour)its noisy and a little heavy on the stick,(all gyros are noisy)

I have Bose A-20 headsets to help with that. If you do get a RAF make sure it has a

really good H-stab, and that you have obtained proper training before attempting to

fly. Gyro's are easy to fly, but like all things, its only that way if you have had proper

training.Gyro,s fly like nothing else in the air,they will bite you really fast without the

right training. But after you have been taught and in a few solo hours you will realize

the really big fun factor built into them.


Best regards,eddie.....
 

madwinger

OldFartium Member
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Mike484

AR-1 🇺🇸
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Houston, Texas
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Be very careful when asking for advice on an RAF. There are a lot of people that are very willing to give advice that do not and have never, owned one or flown one, but they read about them on the forum, this advise may or may not be worth even wasting your time with. On the other hand, advise from people that do own and fly the RAF is very valuable advice and the RAF does have some characteristic that a newbie needs to be aware of, training from a RAF experienced instructor is very important, many of the newer instructors have not flown one and are not familiar with them and they do not fly like an MTO.
 

cgmg

Senior Member
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It would help if you would tell us what type of gyro flying you want to do. Are you looking for a cross country machine, something to just fly around the neighborhood, do you want to fly and feel the wind on your shoulders, how often will you want to take a passenger up, and what is your previous flight experience?

I have about 175 hours in an RAF, and if you'll let me know what you are looking for your first gyro to do, I'll give you some pointers.

Right now I will tell you I personally don't recommend anyone buy an RAF as their first gyro.

The very best thing you could do right now is fly in several different types of gyros before you buy anything.

If you want to discuss flying an RAF more with me, please send me a PM with your phone number, and I'll be happy to give you my first-hand opinion.
 

GyroPro

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Thank for the quick replies

Thank for the quick replies

Thank you for the replies. I am looking for a gyro that is a 2 seater, enclosed, with a current annual, N number, horzontal stablizer, electric starter, pre-rotator, toe brakes, and in good mechanical shape. I will be looking for a CFI with RAF experience. I am looking in the 15k to 20k price range. I would rather learn in what I will be purchasing in the future, but am taking flights in multiple gyros to learn more about each. But being new to Gyros, I am trying to get as much input from experienced RAF owners as possible before making any decisions on my purchase and choice. Safe flying is my top priority. Thank again from any help in this endeavor.
 
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WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
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If the "redlands" in your bio is the one in San Bernadino County, CA, then you are in fairly close proximity to the site of the "Ken Brock Freedom Fly-in" held around El Mirage in late September. That would be a good opportunity to check out many different models and gather opinions. Might even be some RAFs there.
 

ms80831

PRA member since 1973
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Being new to gyros, can I get some insight to the positives and negatives of the RAF 2000 gyro series. I am taking a strong look at this one.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/mobile/morePhotos?listingID=1775879&searchType=category&category=Rotary Wing
A little reading may be in order. I suggest you start here.

Hi PTKay . I enjoy your input . Thanks.
I came across this report on the NSTB site .Maybe the FAA knows a bit more than we give them credit for.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTED FROM: From NSTB report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20020712X01113&key=1
=====
............The FAA's Rotorcraft Flying Handbook contains a discussion of pilot-induced oscillation (PIO), and power pushover situations.
The handbook notes that gyroplanes experience a slight delay between control input and the reaction of the aircraft. This
delay may cause an inexperienced pilot to apply more control input than required, resulting in a greater aircraft response
than was desired. Once the error has been recognized, opposite control input is applied to correct the flight attitude. Because
of the nature of the delay in aircraft response, it is possible for the corrections to be out of synchronization with the movements
of the aircraft and aggravate the undesired changes in attitude. The result is pilot-induced oscillations that can grow rapidly in
magnitude. A power pushover, as described in the FAA handbook, may result if rotor force is rapidly removed, producing a
tendency to pitch forward abruptly. This is often referred to as a forward tumble, buntover, or power pushover. Removing the
rotor force is often referred to as unloading the rotor, and can occur if pilot-induced oscillations become excessive. A power
pushover can occur on some gyroplanes that have the propeller thrust line above the center of gravity and do not have an
adequate horizontal stabilizer. In this case, when the rotor is unloaded, the propeller thrust magnifies the pitching moment
around the center of gravity. This nose pitching action could become self-sustaining and irreversible.
-------------------------------------------------------------

The next time someone questions RAF stability maybe we should all just lead them to this FAA statement.

Maybe we should prompt the FAA to send an advisory alert to all current RAF owners and builders quoting the above.

How many deceased RAF pilots would still be alive if officially warned by the FAA about stability issues. Most I would think.


Arnie Madsen
Bell 47 G2
http://207.58.129.233/~rotary/forum/showthread.php?t=15383
 

GyroPro

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J.R., we are going to the Freedom Flyin, I look forward to meeting you there.

Mark, thank you for sharing the info on high thrust line design buntovers and pilot induced oscillations
 

ms80831

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GyroPro

This might explain some of the reason some older gyro pilots "jump" on the RAF more than other equally unsafe designs.

To Kurt (Sir Real): There's little difference in PPO susceptibility between an original Air Command and an RAF.

An early Air Comm has either no HS or a very small one, and a thrustline offset (above CG) of about six inches WITHOUT the pod. (It would be somewhat more with the pod.) Prop thrust is about 300 lb. Gross is about 600 lb.

A stock RAF has about a 12" thrustline offset, no HS and 600-plus lb. of prop thrust. Gross is about 1200 lb.

From the PPO viewpoint, the RAF is the equivalent of a scaled-up Air Command. Again, both are quite prone to PPO, and for the same reasons.

RAF catches more flak here because, rather than fix the problem as Air Command did, RAF engaged in quite a vicious campaign of disinformation with the goal of maintaining sales of the original model. Some people absorbed the disinformation as if it were accurate technical data. Now they just won't let go of this junk science, even though the RAF company no longer sells gyros.

Happily, Air Command revised its design long ago. There have been no PPO accidents with the CLT Air Command. Too bad RAF didn't do the same thing early on.
 

ms80831

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..."Mark, thank you for sharing the info on high thrust line design buntovers and pilot induced oscillations..."
I noticed "horizontal stabilizer" in your required equipment list posted above, so I am assuming you understand its importance.

Best of luck with selecting a safe and reliable used 2 place gyro.

M
 

GyroPro

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Mark,

Thanks again for the info. I don' t know if I'll find what I am looking for with my budget, may have to save for a bit longer, but look forward to seeing some more gyros at the Freedom Fly and getting some more flight time in different models so I can make an informed personal decision. So far I have time in the Cavalon and looking forward to having time in others.

David Strausberger
Redlands, CA
 

Fly Army

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I got my commercial gyro rating in one. Honestly I think they are ugly and awkward but then again too there were people that liked the Pontiac Aztek so I guess it takes all kinds.
 

GyroPro

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Is this a known mod?

Is this a known mod?

I was watching a video today, and if you look closely on the mast there is a horizontal plane attached as well as a horizontal stabilizer on the tail. Is this a known mod or specific to this gyro. I haven't seen it before.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWLBdEZTEw0
 

cgmg

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That's called a stabilator, and I believe it was designed by Duane Hunn. It reduces the stick pressure in flight. Not sure why people feel they need it, but different strokes for different folks. Some people feel it is a good replacement for a horizontal stab, but I would strongly disagree.

When my gyro was trimmed for level flight, there was no stick pressure. Yes, if I wanted to fly at a different speed, it took pressure either forward or back to do so. But if I was going to fly faster for an extended period, I would just retrim.

You listed toe brakes as one of your requirements. RAF's don't have toe brakes, they have a brake lever. Don't know that I've ever seen toe brakes on one.
 

ms80831

PRA member since 1973
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You listed toe brakes as one of your requirements. RAF's don't have toe brakes, they have a brake lever. Don't know that I've ever seen toe brakes on one.
I used to think toe brakes was a big necessity to. That comes from all my fixed wing years. However the Xenon has a handbrake on the stick. It's really no problem at all. It took me one flight to get used to it. No big deal.
 

eddie

RAF, turbo subaru 230hp
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the stabilator is a really great trim tab.

Fly Army: some of us are average people with limited income for aviation,I

suppose if I was a BIG-IRON type of guy I would have the best gyro money

could buy like you. What make is your beautiful gyro ?

Best regards,eddie.....
 

Aussie_Paul

A reforming stirrer!!!!!
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Since 1982 Gyro 5000+ mostly instructing, and approx. 200 fixed wing in the late 1960s.
The Stabilator trim arrangement makes it so easy to hold the stick forward when on the ground, instead of having to hold against the trim springs.

Aussie Paul :)
 
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