The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Aussie_Paul

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This is some info from the UK site<br><br>NOTAMUnregistered User(11/6/03 10:15 pm)Reply       Stabilizer,  Superfluous device attached to gyroplanes <br><br>Fergus KavanaghRegistered User(11/7/03 7:57 pm)Reply       Shit-stirrer;  Superfluous anonymous gutless trouble-maker.Bugger off <br><br>realistUnregistered User(11/13/03 10:46 pm)Reply       Go and die  Thought these forums existed to inform and educate. Don't agree with the 'clever' way we are told that HS's are superwhatever, but to tell somone to bugger off seems a bit harsh. Everyone has their opinion......... not everyone chooses to express it eloquently, but surely we can debate anyway. <br><br><br>GLENUnregistered User(11/13/03 11:14 pm)<br>Reply       Stabilizer  I agree, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but to put that hstabs are superfluous, and the not put their reason why, is asking for trouble. as far as I am concerned if they are not able to back up their reasoning, they should not put their comments on the site, and should mind their own business, <br><br>pjbUnregistered User(11/13/03 11:22 pm)Reply       Ok then, lets debate.  Question: why do you think that h/stabs are superfluous?Aussie Paul. <br><br>realistUnregistered User(11/14/03 10:19 pm)Reply       H-stabs  He......... assuming he is male has probably flown his gyro for many years without a HS. He is still alive and thinks his machine flies just fine as it is. He may have been told by 'experts' that they just add weight. There may also be a bit of macho posturing. Whatever shapes his opinion we should encourage debate. My first gyro flew fine without one. The designer said they were a waste of time..... until years later one was fitted to satisfy foreign authorities. The very experienced test pilot was amazed at the change it made. Now the designer fits as standard. You only have to search the net to hear of similar findings. The most famous gyro pilot in the world insists they are not needed, yet everyone of his machines sports one. Surely the evidence is overwhelming ? RAF say they are dangerous, yet time after time sceptical CFI's try a HS equipped machine and never look back. <br><br>AndreUnregistered User(11/14/03 11:57 pm)Reply       not neccessary, most desirable.  The pilot very experienced is able to fly the most volitile machine with his skill. When he has made himself familiar with the beast the control becomes automatic, intuitive.He says it is ok with no tailplane stabiliser. He is maybe unaware that he is always performing the balancing act extreme.This situation for him is ok until the unusual, not before encountered, situation does occur when the balancing is beyond his capability and the control is lost.The learning is more difficult in this machine and more perilous for the possible mistake.The flying is for to be a joy, not the walking on the tight-rope! The stabiliser is for the security of always being able to fly tomorrow however great your skill.Andre <br><br><br>NOTAMUnregistered User(11/15/03 1:24 am)Reply       OK...  I will retract superfluous, and proclaim "not mandatory".Look at the gyro background here, I don't see a stabilizer and it looks airborne to me. I read in the UK, they will not even allow you to fit one on models that were approved without one! I have never flown with a stabilizer, but will soon be flying a gyro with one.What is "bugger off"? some kind of europeon insect repellant? <br><br><br>Fergus KavanaghRegistered User(11/15/03 7:41 pm)Reply       Do you understand 'troll' ?  Much as I approve of debate on safety issues, Idont like trolls.Smartass one-line openers are a normal troll tactic.Hence the 'harsh' response.Sorry, I'm not buying it.Bye now. <br><br><br>I will post my response in another reply as this was getting too long for the system<br><br>Aussie Paul. <br><br><br><br><br>
 

Aussie_Paul

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

8)pjbUnregistered User(11/25/03 9:43 pm)Reply      H/stabs  Notam, you will notice also that the gyro on the background to this forum is also CLT.The most important item in gyroplane pitch stability is the have CLT. When you have CLT there is not as much need for a stab. The stab just helps in the rougher air.<br><br>The further thrust line is above the VCoG by more than 2", a stab becomes more and more important.The Raf 2000 has a 10" thrust to VCoG offset, and is extremely dangerous, particularly to inexperienced gyro pilots who have a logbook of many fixed wing hours.An "effective" stab is essential on a Raf if you want to fly in anything but perfect weather. Once you have quite a few hundred hours, then you have probably developed enough skills to survive in the rough air.Even with a stab the Raf can be PPOed if the airspeed is low, the power high, and the rotor become any more than slightly unloaded. Case in point would be a nil power vertical descent and then giving full power. The stab, with very little airflow, will not have the power to stop a PPO.<br><br>My Hybrid with CLT with an "effective" stab is just a wonderful gyro to fly. So stable as to be able to be flown like a fixed wing aircraft, the only difference being the lovely crisp control that you have in a gyro with a direct control rotor system. A truly pitch stable gyro flys the same as a fixed wing aircraft with the sensitivity of a helicopter. This arrangement is a wonderful aircraft to fly.Now back to the dangerous and extremely poorly designed Raf. <br><br>If I lived in the UK I would be flying my Raf with an effective stab regardless of the law. I certainly would not go out of my way to antagonize the law, but I would fly with my stab. If I were prosecuted I would challenge the law, as being life threatening, with a gyro that the law has "approved" with dangerous design faults. With the information and testing results from around the world on this subject, the prosecutors would not have a leg to stand on.<br><br><br>When two seat dual trainers came around 1987, and were illegal here in Oz, I trained illegally. I had to. People were dying with the new high power to weight ratio two stroke gyros without training. While I was breaking the “stupid” law I was in the process of getting the law changed. I became the National President of the Australian Sports Rotorcraft Assn, and in Febuary 1990, with the help of others got the “stupid” law changed. <br><br>I was never prosecuted even though the officials knew what was going on. They would have been thrown out of court with the evidence that was available showing that lack of training was almost 100% of all gyro fatalities. I am not advocating blatant everyday law breaking, just proven "stupid" laws.<br><br><br>You unfortunate Raf owners out there in the UK, fly with a stab and enjoy your flying. Recreational flying is supposed to be "FUN".<br><br>Aussie Paul. 8)
 

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Hiya Paul -- <br><br>Gee, not enough trouble in OZ, or the USA, you have to go to England so that you can post around the clock?... the sun never sets, it's always Day VFR, in Paul's empire (I'm smiling as I type this, OK?)<br><br>1. This confirms to me that it is good that this forum expects people to be registered, and identified. It's too easy for a jerk to hide behind that veil of anonymity - QED.<br><br>2. In the UK the would-be Experimental aviator hasn't the flexibility that one has elsewhere in the Anglosphere, or in France. Without going into the mechanics of the Permit to Fly process, it's damn near as bad as certification. And yes, in the UK you cannot add a stab to an RAF without engineering data. At some point the PFA will wake up and overreact. I think the problems with the PFA are the basic tendency of Britons to form clubs, and a degree of the little-man-with-a-little-power-thinking-he's-big syndrome. Most of them are great guys, but what a bureaucracy, for something that isn't even part of the government! To totally restructure an aircraft, as you and Jim Mayfield have done separately to the RAF, would cause widespread apoplexy. <br><br>3. Your statement of the stability issues with the RAF is right on target. Not just the RAF though... basically any Bensen-derived (Keel-and-mast, pusher) gyro with more power and/or higher thrustline. <br><br>4. The issue is not a stab per se. The issue is stability. As you point out, there are modes in which even an effective stab can't correct for a fundamentally pitch-unstable design. And many guys seem to chant a "stab" mantra without understanding what makes a stab effective. <br><br>5. By the way, the Bensen B-8M has, if it is built according to the plans/manual, centreline thrust. It's NOT a couple inches above the VCM. It says so in so many words, "the thrustline runs through the center of gravity". <br><br>Just thought I'd help you throw petrol on British trolls tonight. <br><br>cheers<br><br>-=K=-
 

Scooter

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

It's been well over a year and a half since I sent a set of stabs with all the data I had plus Menzie gave them data, to the UK to be tested for approval or disapproval.  Last I heard, about six months ago, they were doing some sort of load test, nothing since.  One wonders what makes the English tick.   My gosh; testing a stab on a RAF is not rocket science.  Put it on, fly the bitch for 20 or so hours in different weather conditions, and perform the static and dynamic test, it either works or it doesn't work.<br><br>I'm not so sure I can do any more business overseas anyway.  The shipping costs are beyond reason.  I recently shipped the Ultimate stab and wheel pant to Russia.  The box actually weighed 40lbs, shipping was $985USD.  With the unusual shape I thought it might go on weight alone.  Nope, they (UPS) measured it and determined it was oversize and sent me a bill for $2,210.00.   They square it up to the most possible largest size, measure the Lenght times Width times girth devided by 177, then that gives them some artifical weight, which they charge you for.  I'm not sure about the 177, but it's some out of the blue number.   I think they charged me for 185lbs.   Luckily I was able to talk them out of it.  I don't think people are going to buy if the shipping is over twice the cost of the item.  It was almost $500 to ship the Bad Stab (22lbs) to the UK, luckily they didn't measure it.  If anyone knows a much less expensive method of shipping overseas, please tell me.  Thanks, Larry<br><br>Oh, I didn't mention all the paper work involved, three pages with three copies of each.  What a bunch of bull.<br>
 

Aussie_Paul

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Larry, you said,<br><br>"My gosh; testing a stab on a RAF is not rocket science.  Put it on, fly the bitch for 20 or so hours in different weather conditions, and perform the static and dynamic test, it either works or it doesn't work."<br><br>Quite an irrisponsible gung ho statement.<br><br>I am sure you meant that you would do some homework before you,<br>"Put it on, fly the bitch for 20 or so hours in different weather conditions, and perform the static and dynamic test, it either works or it doesn't work."<br><br>That is not the way, that sensible people with responsibility for human life, would approach the situation.<br><br>What if the loads were such that one side of the stab turned 90 degrees?  Probably death.<br><br>Larry do you consider that any stab can make the Raf meet the stick free let alone the stick fixed stability standards?<br><br>Aussie Paul.<br>
 

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Come on Paul!!! let's not pick on old Larry. His stab looks good to me! And he isn't turning his posts into commercials for them either. I got his point - his point was the UK authoritys should have been able to approve or dis approve of the stab by now. The fact that in the USA the stab is working and making a positive change is all they shouild need, but either way it shouldn't take years for this mod to be tested.<br><br>BTW you guys in Oz have some cool cars and trucks. Pontiac here in the usa has imported a Holden Monaro and re styled it and will sell it as the GTO which is a legendary muscle car from the 60's. I was reading a article in a car magazine where a reader was making comments about GM's poor offerings in the USA and that in other countrys like OZ GM has many fine products. So I did a little intenet surfing and found Holden's web site and WOW what a bunch of cool vehicles. I especially like the Rodeo pickup truck and several of the cars. You lucky dogs! Now tell me you drive a toyota or something ;D
 

Scooter

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Paul, mine do come with instructions, there are more than 50 of mine flying, plenty of referrences/documentation was provided.   My homework has been done and re-done.  If it were the first or one of the first ones, of course I wouldn't say what I said.  I didn't ask them to test my stab, some English guys came to me and ask if I would sell them one to have tested in the UK. <br><br> You said "What if the loads were such that one side of the stab turned 90 degrees?  Probably death. "  I don't know how that could happen.  <br> <br>You also said "Larry do you consider that any stab can make the Raf meet the stick free let alone the stick fixed stability standards?"   Not any, just two.<br><br>I think Ron is right, you appeared to miss my point.  You also seem to be trying to start an argument.  Why do you and someother people seem to always want to pick words apart and start stuff?  Sometimes my wording isn't perfect (most of the time) and it sure makes one think twice about saying anything when one might miss a dot or not cross a tee and people start jumping all over them.  <br><br>It's not my fault the OZ stab was rejected in the UK.  Mine probably will be too, and you know what, in a way I really don't care.  It's more trouble than it's worth.  The UK is not a good market.  The last I heard there were on thirty RAFs overthere.  But, on the other hand I sure hate to hear about people dying because their government won't let them put a stab on.  So if I sell two that might be two lives saved.<br><br>We've done all we can.  We lead them to the water, but we can't make them drink.  <br>
 

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

It's been well over a year and a half since I sent a set of stabs with all the data I had... I didn't mention all the paper work involved, three pages with three copies of each.  What a bunch of bull.<br>
<br><br>Right, and I presume there that you are dealing with the PRA, Larry... it's the UK equivalent of the EAA, but it has quasi-governmental status, and they are at least as bureaucratic as any Ministry of Duplicative Redundancy Ministry that the Brits are likely to come up with. <br><br>The whole RAF issue demonstrates that the Government Agency That Watches Over You Benevolently idea doesn't work. They approved the problem, and now they are dragging their feet on the fix, because, well, for one reason that would require an admission that they missed the problem in the first place (as did I. As did many of us).  <br><br>Sometimes a government agency hands off regulation to a more expert private group, as the UK did with experimental aviation and the US did with parachuting. And sometimes the group, taking on the role of a government agency, takes on some of the tendencies of one as well. <br><br>cheers<br><br>-=K=-
 

Aussie_Paul

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Larry, no intent for an argument at all. I am not very good at expressing myself on this medium, but I do take incorrect information to heart when I have done the testing, and know full well that the info is incorrect.<br><br>My comments were supposed to be more to the point that the Govt officials responsible for peoples safety, especially in the UK, require more than glowing reports. That was your point I believe. My expression at fault again!!! LOL<br><br>Both our stabs should have been approved with our track records.<br><br>I would expect nothing less of posters than to do the same to me when I post incorrect information.<br><br>The only reason we looked at the UK market is because a guy I meet at Bensen days 1999 became a friend, and hated flying his Raf unless the weather was almost perfect, and like you, if we could save some lives it would be worthwhile.<br><br>No stab for a Raf on the market today will make a Raf pass the stick free and stick fixed pitch stability standards that the LSA gyro pitch stability sub committee is finalizing at this time, BUT they all do a great job of taming to a degree the dangerous stock standard Raf gyroplanes. We must not forget that all of the stabs on the market have probably been responsible for saving numerous lives as well as allowing more Raf owners to enjoy their flying a lot more. Recreational flying is supposed to be fun.<br><br>All stab makers can take joy in that.<br><br>I would think/hope that the consensus of the knowledgeable people on both the rotorcraft forums would agree that the stabs being offered couldn’t compensate for the large thrust to VCoG offset that a stock standard Raf has. They are a great band-aid measure, but they do not and cannot make a Raf pitch stable in anything but perfect conditions.<br><br>Now, having said that, I hope that if I am wrong, then they will come up and say so. I certainly do not want to go down a wrong path, and waste valuable time.<br><br>The old horse to water saying is so true Larry.<br><br>Aussie Paul.<br>
 

Scooter

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Now we are communicating like two intelligent people should.  No jabs, name calling or anything like it.  For my part that's the way I'm going to keep it.<br><br>But I take exception to your statement "No stab for a Raf on the market today will make a Raf pass the stick free and stick fixed pitch stability standards that the LSA gyro pitch stability sub committee is finalizing at this time". <br><br> I honestly know the Ultimate stab does the above.  I've flown in it, witnessed all the tests.  Had excellent feed back from customers.  Seen Menzie train in winds he would never train in before, 25 to 35 mph, for a week.  I don't think my eyes lie.<br><br>Unfortunately, there aren't very many people that will brave the wrath of some of the regular posters on this forum and Norms.  I've asked them, they all say they are not getting into the middle of it.<br><br>Here is something that Dustin Howell had to say, I'm sure he doesn't mind.  <br><br>Hey,<br>  We stuck it on today and flew the shit out of it.  Makes a world of difference.  It will fly hands off easily now.  It is heavier than the one on firecracker, but I like it that way.  I usually keep my fast forward anyway.  It seems to balance nicely.  We'll be flying more tomorrow.<br><br>Dustin<br><br>Please I'm not trying to use this forum to sell my product.  But, when people keep saying "no stab will do it" over and over, then people start to believe it.  And in my opinion it ain't so.  And I am compelled to say so.<br><br>Larry<br><br><br>
 

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Larry!........ your asking for trouble ;) - ie... big nasty debate  -!!!  Hands off does not mean it is pitch stable. Duanne and Jim can fly hands off with no stab and we all know those machines aren't stable.
 

Scooter

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Nope, don't mean to start anything.   Debates are good as long as we keep it civil  But, I just hate to hear all those can'ts and don'ts when those who are repeating it haven't even seen one of the new stabs.  I just know when something is said often enough and loud enough it becomes fact regardless of what the truth is.  <br><br> RAF advertises they have a safe machine and we know better.  Why do you think they continue to sell them?  They say it often and loud.  No one in their right mind would believe it if they knew anything at all about aerodynamics, but they do.  I could start a rumor that you were running around on your wife, get enough people to repeat it and before you know it you would be trying to find out what the other woman's name was.  Get my point?<br><br>I could walk a tight wire if I had been doing it as long as Duanne and Jim have been flying RAFs.  What they can do should mean absolutely nothing for a low time RAF pilot, in fact them flying around without a stab or CLT just sends the wrong message.   And, could have been the root cause of some of the fatalities.  Please note I said "could have" not anything else.<br> <br>Dustin said "easily NOW"  meaning not before.<br><br>Don't let you wife read this, she might start asking around.
 

Aussie_Paul

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Larry, I agree with all the reports you have. We probably have just as many. Any stab on a Raf improves the handling of the machine DRAMATICALLY!!!!!!<br><br>I was one of the first to conduct considerable testing to see if the Raf with an effective stab, whether it be yours, mine, Kens or anyone else’s, would meet the pitch stable requirements. It didn't, and aerodynamically can't, but I had to prove it for myself.<br><br>I conducted a lot of tests for the LSA gyro pitch stability sub committee. Greg Grimminger did also. No one else got off their butts to help. Everyone has opinions, and that is all they can be if they have not conducted the tests as per the LSA recommendation at that time.<br><br>Stabs make a Raf much more docile to fly, and the low hour pilot can keep ahead of it much more easily, but h/stabs cannot make a machine with a wrong way T/Line to VCoG offset of 10" pitch stable.<br><br>Dr. Stewart Houston worked out that to have the T/Line and VCoG on a Raf passing through each other the thrust line would have to be pointed down in excess of 18 degrees!!!!!!!!!!<br><br>I know Doug Riley worked out, some time ago, that working with as an effective airfoil as possible the h/stab had to be an enormous amount of square feet to compensate for the Raf offset !!!!! I am sure a search on Norm’s forum would find that info. <br><br>So unless one has an h/stab that is approx. 400% better than anyone else’s, it just ain't so.<br><br>BUT Larry, in saying all of the above, the improvement to a Raf with effective stabs is fantastic, and no Raf should be flown by a low hour pilot in other than perfect conditions.<br><br>I appreciate you thoughts re "if it is said enough it is believed". That is why it is important to get it correct. We never claimed that our stabs made a Raf pitch stable. All the testing and feedback says that it makes a hellova difference.<br><br>I have posted in another thread here today on how we have reduced the Raf t/line to VCoG offset. Now that does reduce the instability.<br><br>Aussie Paul.<br>
 

Scooter

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Hey Paul, you said "Everyone has opinions, and that is all they can be if they have not conducted the tests as per the LSA recommendation at that time."<br><br>True everyone has opinions.  However,  both of the stabs I produce were tested as per LSA recommendations at that time by Ron Menzie.   They were not officially sanctioned.  They can't be sanctioned until the recommendations become regulations. We wanted to see if they would pass.  They both passed with flying colors.   The newer stab recovers much better and handles high wind better than the Bad Stab.  But, they both passed.  I mean like I was there, I was in it.  Menzie even posted his results, and you can find them on my site.<br><br>Another thing I take exception to is hearing the sentence "a stab on a RAF is nothing but a bandaid".   Absolutely not true.  A stab on an RAF is an aerodynamic correction varying in differing degrees depending on the characterics of that particular stab.  A bandaid infers something temporary, to cover it until it heals.   Even I agree that CLT is at this time probably the best correction for the basically unstable RAF.  However, I feel that one stab being offered (not to mention which) does an extremely good job of stabilizing the RAF at a much lower price tag than going CLT.   Plus it  preserves the RAF as an RAF.  With the CLT ungrade, it is no longer a RAF, it becomes an ugly duckling.  A stable ugly duckling, but in my opinion an ugly duckling never the less.   <br>
 

Aussie_Paul

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

I think we will leave it there Larry, otherwise it will develop into an argument.<br><br>I envy your  flair and the artistic side of your work, as well as your impecable workmanship.<br><br>But at the end of the day I would rather my knowledge and understanding of gyroplane aerodynamics, small as it is.<br><br>Aussie Paul.
 

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Larry:   As I have posted...I recently purchased a partially built RAF2000. It came with a Parham stab.<br><br>I know your stabs look and fly nice.  What is your opinion of a Parham stab?  I have heard nothing but good reports...same as with your stab.<br><br>I have read so many good reports on RAF with stabs..and have talked to several who have flown with and without.  I am totally convinced I will be happy with mine.
 

Scooter

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Re: The trouble in the UK re h/stabs

Don sells a very fine stab.  You can't go wrong.  I'm into the cosmetics more than Don is.  The performance of my Bad Stab and Don's Longhorn stab should be about the same.  I used the basic air foil from one of Don's stabs when I made my first Bad Stab, so I knew I couldn't go too wrong.  I made the Bad stab a little bit bigger, Don stuck his further back.   It's probably six one way and half a dozen the other as far as performance is concerned.  Just depends on what a person likes the best.<br><br>I no longer market the Bad Stab for two place machines.<br>  <br>Of course, I'm not the least bit prejudice.  I wish you had mine, but at least you have the good sense to use one.  Just remember, a stab, any stab or CLT, is not a substitute for training.
 
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