The good-bad-and the ugly for the PRA

gyroblackwell

designer, builder, flyer
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
442
Location
Hobe Sound, FL., and Plainville, CT.
Aircraft
flightstar ultralight, Soma U/L GyroCopter, Cessena 152
Total Flight Time
500 hrs.
I have thought about this for some time now, and feel the need ask for help from my fellow PRA members. Gary Goldsberry will be stepping down from the PRA board as president in the next couple of years.
The PRA organization is in a real pickle right now. Member numbers have been dropping, while everything else has been going up.

I am asking you all a simple question?

Does it matter to you if the PRA organization dies?

Do you feel that the PRA belongs to you?

What would you do to help your PRA stay alive?

We all find it very easy to suggest things to improve the PRA, but few will follow through and actually DO something.

We need to take a hard look at the entire organization, and decide (each one of us) if we are going to help save the PRA or watch it die.

I will be asking the BOD to change a current requirement that a board member be on the board for at least 3 years before being able to run for President.

I want to see the PRA grow, and the members be happy with the organization that they pay to belong too.

Gary has served us well. the future of the PRA is up to us all!

Respectfully.
 
"Gary Goldsberry will be stepping down from the PRA board as president in the next couple of years."

I thought he was stepping down this year? Which is correct?

"Member numbers have been dropping, while everything else has been going up." "Gary has served us well."

If an organization is sinking, doesn't a long-time president have to share some of the blame? This fantastic Forum has been given to us, yet the leadership of the PRA fails to see the advantages or need to use it for communicating with the members.

Hopefully new leadership can facilitate a turnaround. I'd suggest selling the airport and pumping the money back into recruitment and the magazine, that is if we actually own the airport. Enough of the member's money has been blown on it. The airport basically serves those members who live near it, which is a handful. It has sucked the financial life out of the organization. A convention can be held at any of several thousand airports without buying one, paying for repaving, etc.
 
I've seen this situation develop before in other organizations. Gary has worked very hard, he's very knowledgeable, and his heart's in the right place. Unfortunately, a few specific BOD decisions and the special priviledges for life members have made PRA look as if only long-timers and insiders have any voice in the organization.

At this point in the saga of the airport, we might as well pay it off and keep it. It will only increase in value, and perhaps could be a revenue source if managed professionally.
 
I doubt a small airport can ever be a good revenue source. Most bigger airports make it only because they get huge government grants, IMO. You'd need a couple FBOs selling fuel, a car rental agency or 2, a restaurant and scads of leased hangars and aircraft oriented businesses renting spaces. How is Mentone going to generate meaningful income?

Plus, I don't think that the true ownership of the airport has been established to the liking of a lot of the members. Aren't Gary's and Glenn's names still the only ones on the deed to the airport? For a small, far-flung organization like ours to have purchased an airport is ridiculous. Is it just a coincidence that it happens to be in the backyard of many of the former and/or present BOD members?
 
Screw-In

I'm a PRA member, and all I've personally benefited by form of Magazine, and a few stickers ONLY, that I'm aware of. There may be some other benefits that are unseen but there non-the-less.

I'm assuming the majority of the PRA members feel this way as well. I have no direct benefit of the airport and could care less. Therefore, I agree with Ken. If these are our only benefits, then what interest would we have in keeping the PRA alive?

I think all the PRA needs is a political spokesperson who is skilled in dealing with the public members and is thier only task. This forum is an excellent medium for that. It is clear, communication is of priority. The BOD I'm sure has out best interest at heart, but unable to communicate effectively with the public members.

Screw-Out
 
Screw-In

I'm so impressed with this forum, that I pay extra to keep it going. If Todd P. came out with a magazine, a few stickers, t-shirts (done), and hats, who would even bother with the PRA?

PRA stands for Popular Rotorcraft Association. This forum gets more action in a day, than three years of PRA meetings. Which forum is really "Popular?"

Does anyone ask Todd P. does with the money he collects from us? No, who cares. It's a contribution to keeps this place alive. If he get's rich, who cares, this is his brainchild after Norm decided shut down. He should get the benefits of it.

I don't care what the PRA does with my money. I paid, I got a magazine, I'm happy. You don't need a BOD, you need a purpose. The airport isn't a purpose that benefits all of us.

Todd's forum is.

Screw-Out
 
PRA . . .one of my favorite subjects! :D
It is there, it will die if the actual BOD allows it to happen.
Gary Gosldsberry is one person and can do so much, now he could be the leader and increase his influence on the rise of this Organization.
If G.G steps down the PRA is at greater risk of folding? Why?
Is the Airport deal the main point of disagreement and the reason for diminishing numbers?
I will say one more time, we have numbers enough to be a great thing and if we can come up with some attractions, lots or people will join.
Lets be daring, modern, adventurous for once?
It has been 4 years of asking and proposing and not one project presented in the Forums got the BOD's ears, I have no knowledge of anything been discussed or proposed to change the momentum or direction.
As far as I am concerned this forum is the visible PRA.
thanks
Heron
 
I will try to answer the questions.

The PRA is sinking because board members from previous board terms could not keep themselves from accusing each other of fowl play, and could not contain they're resentment of one-another to see the bigger picture. (all of the PRA members)

For all of you who think the Airport is a waste of the PRA money..... concider this....
IF the airport did not exist - where would we all gather each year for the chance to learn what is new- and enjoy over-seas members?

Do you really think ROC could handle this?, or Texas? or Bensen Days?

If 9-11 had instead been 4-11 .... do you think we would have even had a convention? All our public airports would have dropped us like a hot potatoe.

I realize some of the members don't care about the convention because they never attend ..... too bad for them.... they are missing a really fun and eventful time. I live in lower FL. .... but I will make the trip up to Mentone because I know it will be worth the time and money.

Yes the forum is a wonderful tool for all of us, and I too thank Todd for putting it together. But do you think the forum would be as big as it is without some big flying events to talk about? or magazine articles to talk about? concersations that took place at the convention always make there way onto this forum.

I hope to see a CFI move to the Airport and use it as a training base.

Soon a gyro manufacturing firm might move to the airport and use it as a building site for gyros. A Sales site for gyros. It only takes on such person or company to start the flame that can make the PRA airport a center of excellence for the Gyro communitee.

Lots of you will say "well that will never happen" always seems to be that way. I am telling you that it is just a matter of time before this does happen.

If we did not have the airport, We would still have to pay for an office location, office manager, and magazine/magazine editor. so where do you think we would be SAVING money.

The payment for the airport proporty is the same as would be for any base of opporations. The added benifit to all of us is a place we can meet that cannot kick us off the property because someone decides that gyros are unsafe!

The Airport will be paid off soon. At that time the office use becomes free so-to-speak. Now the funds to start growing the PRA will start showing up.

The BOD and the members need to keep this in mind, and start planning for that day. It is just around the corner.

People on this forum that want to see the PRA die are those that have long since dropped out of the organization or those that have never joined. This forum has given them an avenue to do as much verbal damage to the PRA as possible without having to deal with any of the "back flash" that can occur if you are on a BOD, or attending a public gathering where your actions are immediately checked and cross checked. And if you accuse someone or a group of people you had better be able to back it up right then and there.

I think that future Board members will use this forum more as time goes by. But these board members will need to be strong willed and thick skinned.

To sum it all up ..... We own an airport (no matter what the paranoid ones want to think) We need to make use of it. To make it pay us back in the form of Sport gyro aircraft, training exemptions,more flyin locations, sport pilot gyro, new better gyro designs, and to grow the gyro community !

We will soon be able to have 12 issues of the magazine plus a manufactures addition ..... once we get over the mortgage hump, and once members start giving to fellow members instead of just asking "what do I get"

If we don't start trying to change our PRA now.... there will not be a PRA to change when we all realize what we have lost.

Can the forum continue if the PRA goes away? ..... sure..... but in a matter of a year we will have fewer things to talk about, no one will know what is new and who built what. No show case of gyros, and no magazine to get us through the winter and keep us interested in the sport.

So it's up to us.

I think Gary will be leaving this year. I think the Board will be needing some new young blood to keep it alive.

I hope you will stand beside me in keeping the PRA alive, and forcing it's elected board to make the right choices needed to make things turn around.

Respectfully.
 
I will try to answer the questions.

The PRA is sinking because board members from previous board terms could not keep themselves from accusing each other of fowl play, and could not contain they're resentment of one-another to see the bigger picture. (all of the PRA members)

For all of you who think the Airport is a waste of the PRA money..... concider this....
IF the airport did not exist - where would we all gather each year for the chance to learn what is new- and enjoy over-seas members?

Do you really think ROC could handle this?, or Texas? or Bensen Days?

If 9-11 had instead been 4-11 .... do you think we would have even had a convention? All our public airports would have dropped us like a hot potatoe.

I realize some of the members don't care about the convention because they never attend ..... too bad for them.... they are missing a really fun and eventful time. I live in lower FL. .... but I will make the trip up to Mentone because I know it will be worth the time and money.

Yes the forum is a wonderful tool for all of us, and I too thank Todd for putting it together. But do you think the forum would be as big as it is without some big flying events to talk about? or magazine articles to talk about? conversations that took place at the convention always make there way onto this forum.

I hope to see a CFI move to the Airport and use it as a training base.

Soon a gyro manufacturing firm might move to the airport and use it as a building site for gyros. A Sales site for gyros. It only takes on such person or company to start the flame that can make the PRA airport a center of excellence for the Gyro communitee.

Lots of you will say "well that will never happen" always seems to be that way. I am telling you that it is just a matter of time before this does happen.

If we did not have the airport, We would still have to pay for an office location, office manager, and magazine/magazine editor. so where do you think we would be SAVING money.

The payment for the airport proporty is the same as would be for any base of opporations. The added benifit to all of us is a place we can meet that cannot kick us off the property because someone decides that gyros are unsafe!

The Airport will be paid off soon. At that time the office use becomes free so-to-speak. Now the funds to start growing the PRA will start showing up.

The BOD and the members need to keep this in mind, and start planning for that day. It is just around the corner.

People on this forum that want to see the PRA die are those that have long since dropped out of the organization or those that have never joined. This forum has given them an avenue to do as much verbal damage to the PRA as possible without having to deal with any of the "back flash" that can occur if you are on a BOD, or attending a public gathering where your actions are immediately checked and cross checked. And if you accuse someone or a group of people you had better be able to back it up right then and there.

I think that future Board members will use this forum more as time goes by. But these board members will need to be strong willed and thick skinned.

To sum it all up ..... We own an airport (no matter what the paranoid ones want to think) We need to make use of it. To make it pay us back in the form of Sport gyro aircraft, training exemptions,more flyin locations, sport pilot gyro, new better gyro designs, and to grow the gyro community !

We will soon be able to have 12 issues of the magazine plus a manufactures addition ..... once we get over the mortgage hump, and once members start giving to fellow members instead of just asking "what do I get"

If we don't start trying to change our PRA now.... there will not be a PRA to change when we all realize what we have lost.

Can the forum continue if the PRA goes away? ..... sure..... but in a matter of a year we will have fewer things to talk about, no one will know what is new and who built what. No show case of gyros, and no magazine to get us through the winter and keep us interested in the sport.

So it's up to us.

I think Gary will be leaving this year. I think the Board will be needing some new young blood to keep it alive.

I hope you will stand beside me in keeping the PRA alive, and forcing it's elected board to make the right choices needed to make things turn around.

Respectfully.
 
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"Gary Gosldsberry is one person and can do so much, now he could be the leader and increase his influence on the rise of this Organization."

With all the years he's been president and leader, I'd suggest he's already had enough time to do it and has basically failed to do it. I don't know how to say it any other way. The PRA has been sinking for a very long time under his leadership. Having one's heart in the right place and "working" for the PRA does not guarantee good and effective leadership so that the organization prospers. I don't think that I have the skills to run an organization, so this is not a personal attack on anyone. It is what it is.
 
"If we did not have the airport, We would still have to pay for an office location, office manager, and magazine/magazine editor. so where do you think we would be SAVING money."

Have the editor and office manager been paid lately? I heard that people who are not paid don't show up for weeks at a time.

"The added benifit to all of us is a place we can meet that cannot kick us off the property because someone decides that gyros are unsafe!"

I've flown gyros probably into at least 25 different airports, including Class B, if not more. I've never been kicked off. Maybe it's the cowboys and illegal fliers that have this concern and need to straighten out their acts.

"To sum it all up ..... We own an airport (no matter what the paranoid ones want to think)"

Really? Whose 2 names only are on the deed? If we're paranoid, show us in writing that the PRA owns it. "PRA Mentone" owns it, which is basically 2 members that kept it a secret for years.

"IF the airport did not exist - where would we all gather each year for the chance to learn what is new- and enjoy over-seas members?"

Thumb through AOPA's Airport Directory. There might be one or two airports in there that we could use.

"If 9-11 had instead been 4-11 .... do you think we would have even had a convention?"

Is there going to be one this year?

"But do you think the forum would be as big as it is without some big flying events to talk about?"

There are plenty of flying events left if the one at Mentone wasn't held. If Mentone folded, I doubt that it would have any effect on any of the others being held.

"I hope to see a CFI move to the Airport and use it as a training base."

Like Duanne Hunn? I thought that was a done deal.

I don't think anyone wants to see the PRA fold. I'd like to see that albatross of an airport that has dragged the organization down financially be sold for the benefit of the PRA and the money better used for the magazine and recruitment. One fly-in a year does not justify the expense of purchasing and maintaining an airport that hardly anyone gets to use conveniently. If the airport is such a great asset, why does the convention attendance keep going down? Everyone should be flocking to it, but the fact is that they're not.
 
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Tim,

You have my respect and admiration, but I have to debate you on a couple of points. You said of PRA critics:

"This forum has given them an avenue to do as much verbal damage to the PRA as possible without having to deal with any of the 'back flash' that can occur if you are on a BOD, or attending a public gathering..."

Tim, this forum is much bigger, and much more public than any PRA BOD or life-members meeting. Who's really hiding from scutiny?

You asked, "But do you think the forum would be as big as it is without some big flying events to talk about?"

It might be even bigger. Straighten me out here if I'm wrong, but don't ROC, Bensen Days, El Mirage and every other gyro fly-in except Mentone happen without any support from PRA? It's tough to get PRA to even support local volunteers seeking to provide a PRA recruitment table at a local fly-in.

And, yes, someone would have to go out and get another training exemption. My guess is Groen Brothers would be on that in a heartbeat, followed by a few other entities.
 
gyroblackwell said:
Does it matter to you if the PRA organization dies?
Yes. I don't want it to die.

Do you feel that the PRA belongs to you?
Not really. The decision makers make me feel like my opinions have no value. If my opinions have no value, I feel no ownership.

What would you do to help your PRA stay alive?
I am willing to give much of my free time to help the PRA become better. I am sure many others on this forum will do the same. All it takes is some organization. What's missing is leadership.

We all find it very easy to suggest things to improve the PRA, but few will follow through and actually DO something.
I disagree. You'll be surprized how many people will step to the plate if you came to them and asked for help. How many people told you no?

I will be asking the BOD to change a current requirement that a board member be on the board for at least 3 years before being able to run for President.
Good idea. The PRA need a good shake-up.

Udi
 
All good points. I will wait for more replies to this thread before going on to the next matter at hand.

I myself do not try to hide. I am on this forum weekly, and invite anyone to throw questions my way.

I will wait for the day that the Airport deed is handed to the BOD of the PRA before replying to Ken's accusing words towards the present BOD.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.
 
"I will wait for the day that the Airport deed is handed to the BOD of the PRA before replying to Ken's accusing words towards the present BOD."

Where's the accusing, Tim? What did I accuse the present board of? You yourself are stating that the PRA doesn't own the airport and you're waiting for the day it's turned over to the PRA Board. Can we compel the present owners to turn it over? No. Are we positive it will be? No. Are we at their mercy? Yes. Have the members of the PRA paid for the airport and the $35,000 repaving job? Yes. Did they have any voice in the purchase or repaving? No. Has PRA Mentone yet turned it over to the PRA? No. Why not? Now's a good a time as any. It doesn't have to be paid off to change ownership.

Why are the current owners still hanging on to it, months after it was discovered that we don't own it as led to believe for many years? There never was a satisfactory explanation as to why the airport was put in Glenn's and Gary's name only. The lame excuses given were shot down a long time ago as pure baloney. Why did they keep it a secret from everyone for so long? The smell from Mentone is once again getting over-ripe. How the hell was $35,000 for a repaving justified when the organization is on a downslide and practically broke? If we're not broke, why is the magazine always being cut back?
 
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Screw-In

Don't get me wrong Tim. I don't want any bad thing to happen to anybody or anything.....Meaning, I don't want the PRA to die. I just don't care.

I joined PRA when I first got into Gyros. I got a magazine, and a sticker. The only way I knew my dues were due the next year, is my magazine quit comming.

I'm a member of Chapter 13. Chapter 13 has an active email and chat. A very active President who comes on here and answers everybodys questions on anything, and a fly-in once a year.

Basically, chapter 13 has been more to me than the PRA as a whole. I don't get why everybody is making such a big deal about the PRA, they do nothing that effects the average gyro guy like me.

Screw-Out
 
All good points....

Ken, I am not sure it was ever really proved that the airport is in Gary and Glenns names. I believe it is in the name of PRA MENTONE and Gary and Glenn and at least one other is on that board. The airport issue really is a dead horse... there is no way in hell that any of those guys could " steal " the airport and get away with it. There isn't a court anywhere in the USA that would allow that to happen. I agree the airport issue always had a bad stink, but I really do not believe there is any foul play going on under our noses.


A point that has been brought up but never really expanded about the airport.... The airport did not cost much when it was purchased. I think I remember a figure of around 60-70 grand. That is dirt cheap really if you think about it. The mortage on the airport is not thousands upon thousands of dollars a month like you would expect it to be, instead it is fairly equal to what the rent would be for a small retail office space. The PRA would need a office one way or the other, so if the PRA has the choice to pay for example 1200$ per month for a airport/ office, or 1200$ a month for rent for a small office space.... which one do you think has more value??? Which is smarter way of using PRA money that would need to be spent anyway?

To address Tim... Like others have said, there would still be gyros flying, and big fly-ins and so on if the PRA folded. Bensen Days is larger than Mentone in turnout anyway isn't it???

John Stevens.... I agree with you.
 
Im with Ken the last thing that we need is the Airport -IMHO it should be SOLD. An organization such as ours has no need for such an extravagant expense. It is an expense by the way that only benefits a few for the most part of the year. As far as a yearly convention at one location -- I think that this is ridiculous as most of the members have very little if any opportunity to travel to Mentone - The convention should be on a rotational basis throughout the country with different chapters hosting it. I was at the Texas Convention -and it was well presented and attended.


Lets face it folks -- Rotorcraft specifically GYROS (which is probably over 90% of PRA) will NEVER be considered mainstream general aviation. We need to accecpt that fact and make it work to our advantage.

As far as office space is concerned --in this day and age of computers --very little is needed --even to print a well designed magazine - a single staff member operating out of their home could handle all of the day to day operations --and the Editor of the Magazine could likewise oversee the magazines publishing from their own home --

Many people feel that a permanent base of operations is need --but in reality this is not the case --if the PRA is to survive we must be willing to adapt to needs of it members .

Im president of our local chapter -PRA -15 and our membership is dwindling --I've done everything I can to increase membership all to no avail --people just dont join groups like they used to --

The Good Sam RV Club and the Ham Radio Club that I belong to are plauged by loss of members -- so this is not unique to us who fly rotorcraft.

Do I want to see the PRA die --NO --but IMHO it is outdated in its philosophy and its methodology and requirements for board members.

This is food for thought and my .02C worth--
 
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Time to make in some changes

Time to make in some changes

Let’s cut to the chase here. The PRA is dying a slow death, and so is the sport. The “PRA” Mentone Airport’s property value is rising each year at the obvious expense of the PRA organization. The PRA membership has paid a substantial sum ($65,000?)Paving the airport without any return except the one week use per year. I’m assuming 95-97 percent or more of the dues paying members will never fly at Mentone any given year. Is this a good expenditure for PRA members as a whole? Or does this benefit only a small number of mostly local pilots on a year round basis? The fact of the matter is the “convention” could be run out of any decent smooth grass strip available in any state. Moving it around and securing yearly sites should be the main goal of PRA so all pilots and interested people could regionally attend every few years.

I have never meet Gary G. He has over the years contributed much time and effort to the PRA, which is undisputed. However, there has also been some interesting decision making that has occurred during that time. The decision to purchase the Airport was made in good faith, no doubt. It has risen in value a few hundred thousand dollars as real estate values have gone up. The wisdom of the purchase at the time can’t be disputed, but it is time (like any business) to reevaluate that purchase now. The transferring it out of the PRA assets to a separate organization is very questionable. Let’s face it; the PRA barely has enough money to meet operating expenses. Why would anyone be worried about a lawsuit and the PRA loosing assets, which was the main reason given for the transfer? Now PRA Mentone Airport is worth far more money than the PRA itself. Why don’t most of you see anything wrong with that? There is nothing to get from the PRA (asset-wise) except Pam’s old office equipment. When Gary G steps away from the PRA board, so should he do the same from PRA Mentone, and let the Airport rejoin the PRA organization. Doing anything less will be reason to raise suspicions and conjecture. Remember, it took a very long time to even come up with the documents regarding what would happen to the airport if PRA Mentone should be dissolved. A lot of smoke and mirrors have already occurred here.

I have attended the Mentone ”convention”. As a newbie at the time, it seemed just like a large fly-in, no more. It is hardly Oshkosh. Some of the expenditures have been self serving. Skip the fireworks guys and save the money, I came to see the gyros fly, period. The PRA needs money. Maybe some of it could be contributed to a safety fund or supporting the few gyro CFI’s that we have. The PRA could contribute to each CFI some money when the student gets a PPL, just a idea to help make the sport grow and get healthy. I just don’t see why it is so damn important to hold on to an airport that is used by so few. If there is still resistance to sell Mentone fine. But. …. PRA MENTONE, GIVE PRA THE MONEY BACK you used for paving and other airport related projects. Get a loan on the land value, I will even show you how. All the money used on a mortgage loan to help the PRA could not be seized in a lawsuit. That’s what this whole transfer thing was supposed to accomplish anyways. The airport has the necessary equity to do this. PRA is sick, help it out. The reluctance to do this is what smells rotten here. The foot dragging to disclose the facts regarding the Airport’s ownership and control made many rightfully nervous. It is easy to look back and criticize those actions. Everyone will forgive and forget if it gets fixed in a hurry, but not till then. I am not excited about dumping any more money into the PRA till change occurs. I am not a life member, but I can vote with my wallet. The money is not important; the support of wasteful follies like the airport is another thing that I do not choose to support until PRA is healthy again. This forum is far more important and informative to the average flying gyro pilot, or want-to-be than the PRA, which seems to be stuck in a time warp. It is becoming so detached to its membership, and the magazines are nice, but untimely. PRA should concentrate on the safety massage and recruiting to get healthy again. I hope something happens real soon. The argument that we need an airport so that we can also have a business office to run the PRA with is an unbelievably stupid argument. That is like saying PRA also needs a hotel at the Airport so we can hold a fly-in. They are not necessarilly attached issues. Last year I offered to give the PRA a business office to work out of for two years, rent free in California. This offer still stands to help out. Now how is that for a put up or shut up help. I believe it is time for some real change to occur now before nothing is left of the PRA. Well at least a very expensive airport in the middle of Indiana will still be around for the chosen few to use. Is that what serves the PRA membership the best? Of course not, BOD wake up, and get your priorites straight for the larger membership. Hey, I may even rejoin PRA sooner. Every year when I go to the Ken Brock freedom El Mirage fly-in, I donate 50 bucks to Chapter 1 to help them in their efforts to hold the event. At least that money is better spent. Remember, that "airport" is nearly free and is 10,000 feet wide by 30,000 feet long. "Airport" cost consist of putting down a chalk line for the flight line. Ok it is not exactly JFK, but the porta-potties help. Get back to the roots of the sport gentleman. A permanent airport is a expensive folly.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel, Ca N86SH
 
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"The “PRA” Mentone Airport’s property value is rising each year....."

It's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. It ain't worth diddley until somebody signs a check. There are homes and buildings asessed at millions of dollars that have sat unsold for years. Assessed value doesn't mean crap if there are no buyers. Of course how would we know when the membership isn't told anything? I wouldn't count on Mentone Airport being worth much to anybody. Is there even housing development potential in that area? It's certainly not a hotbed of general aviation. Who is it worth big bucks to? Plowed under for soybeans or corn maybe. What good is (maybe) owning a valuable property if it sucks the lifeblood out of us? Actually we don't own it, we just paid for it.
 
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