the check is in the mail...

BEN S

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Wow, an interesting opinion on world history to be sure.

Wow, an interesting opinion on world history to be sure.

I would have to say that there are SO many gaps and misunderstandings in the authors analysis of U.S. History that a meaningful debate of the events would be near impossible. Tadtionally the U.S. has been and will continue to be the most generous nation on earth. How many trillions of dollars in aid and blood of young American serviceman have been spent in the noble pursuit of lending a hand to other nations? The author appears to have been highly educated in our liberal colledges with their distorted agenda of teaching grown men to apologize for events that happened LONG before they were born. I do not perscribe to this attitude. Your a German/Japanese/Native American/anyone else...I don't give [email protected]#T what my ancestors may or may not have done to your ancestors, get over it, I don't owe you aything!
If this is truly how you view the U.S. and it's people Raton then take some advice from a bloodthirsty raging barbarian....perhaps you ought not to continue to raise the ire of some of the board members(not me), you wouldn't want them to bomb/rape/pillage your lovely little island inhabited by the ancestors of British detritus! :usa:
I suggest that you watch the opening scene of the movie Patton. Americans love to fight! The fact that we remain at the top of the world heap militarily can't be a coincidence!
Ben S
 

raton

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"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic and a killer." — D.H. Lawrence

"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic and a killer." — D.H. Lawrence

I would have to say that there are SO many gaps and misunderstandings in the authors analysis of U.S. History that a meaningful debate of the events would be near impossible. Tadtionally the U.S. has been and will continue to be the most generous nation on earth. How many trillions of dollars in aid and blood of young American serviceman have been spent in the noble pursuit of lending a hand to other nations? The author appears to have been highly educated in our liberal colledges with their distorted agenda of teaching grown men to apologize for events that happened LONG before they were born. I do not perscribe to this attitude. Your a German/Japanese/Native American/anyone else...I don't give [email protected]#T what my ancestors may or may not have done to your ancestors, get over it, I don't owe you aything!
If this is truly how you view the U.S. and it's people Raton then take some advice from a bloodthirsty raging barbarian....perhaps you ought not to continue to raise the ire of some of the board members(not me), you wouldn't want them to bomb/rape/pillage your lovely little island inhabited by the ancestors of British detritus! :usa:
I suggest that you watch the opening scene of the movie Patton. Americans love to fight! The fact that we remain at the top of the world heap militarily can't be a coincidence!
Ben S



General George S. Patton probably had the best description of war and its purpose. “No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.” He also said this, which is not so much out of place here: “Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting of battle. … Americans play to win at all times. I wouldn't give a hoot in hell for a man who lost and laughed. That's why Americans have never lost nor ever lose a war.” (got clobbered in Vietnam)

"Increasingly, Americans are a people without history, with only memory, which means a people poorly prepared for what is inevitable about life -- tragedy, sadness, moral ambiguity -- and therefore a people reluctant to engage difficult ethical issues."
-- Elliot Gorn, "Professing History: Distinguishing Between Memory and Past," Chronicle of Higher Education (April 28, 2000).

In August 2002, President George Bush began to drum up a war fever in America with a view to toppling Iraqi Dictator Saddam Hussein, alleged to be the possessor of weapons of mass destruction. Bush did so without providing the evidence, the costs, the "why now" explanation, or long-term implications of such a war.

And by October 2002, The United States Congress not only granted the president a virtual declaration of war for an historically unprecedented "pre-emptive war," but did so without raising any questions about the whys, the evidence, the costs, or long term implications for the nation -- and for the world -- of such an unprovoked invasion.

Only a democratic society accustomed to war -- and predisposed to the use of war and violence -- would accept war so quickly, without asking any questions or demanding any answers from its leaders about the war.
And only the opposition of the French, Germans, Russians, and Chinese finally forced some Americans to raise questions about what was actually being planned. This, coupled with the anti-war demonstrations on February 15th, 2003 by millions of people in 350 cities around the globe, delayed President Bush from actually launching this war against Iraq by mid-February 2003.
Nothing, however, seemed to stop the bush administration's drive for war. Nor did the failure of American diplomatic efforts to get authorization from the United Nations' security council seem to bother the members of the congress, virtually all of whom remained silent or in support of war. The incessant polls showed that a majority of the american population continued to support a preemptive war even as -- or perhaps because of -- increasingly angry objections were voiced by important longterm allies and antiwar demonstrators all over the world.

The reality untaught in American schools and textbooks is that war -- whether on a large or small scale -- and domestic violence have been pervasive in American life and culture from this country's earliest days almost 400 years ago. Violence, in varying forms, according to the leading historian of the subject, Richard Maxwell Brown, "has accompanied virtually every stage and aspect of our national experience," and is "part of our unacknowledged (underground) value structure." Indeed, "repeated episodes of violence going far back into our colonial past, have imprinted upon our citizens a propensity to violence."

Thus, America demonstrated a national predilection for war and domestic violence long before the 9/11 attacks, but its leaders and intellectuals through most of the last century cultivated the national self-image, a myth, of America as a moral, "peace-loving" nation which the American population seems unquestioningly to have embraced.

Despite the national, peace-loving self-image, American patriotism has usually been expressed in military and even militaristic terms. No less than seven presidents owed their election chiefly to their military careers (George Washington, 1789, Andrew Jackson,1828, William Henry Harrison, 1840, Zachary Taylor,1848, Ulysses S. Grant,1868, Theodore Roosevelt,1898, and Dwight David Eisenhower, 1952) while others, Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy, for example, capitalized upon their military records to become presidents, and countless others at both federal and state levels made a great deal of their war or military records.

Starting with President Woodrow Wilson early in the 20th century, national leaders began to use moralistic rhetoric when they took the nation to war. They assured Americans that the nation's singular mission in the world required the nation to go to war, but that when it went to war, America only did what was morally right.

Secretary of State John Hay, in 1898, lauded the Spanish-American War as a "splendid little war." Commentators have touted World War II as the good war and those who fought in it, "The Best American Generation," and President George Bush, as he was about to launch a War against Iraq on January 29, 1991, asserted: "We are Americans; we have a unique responsibility to do the hard work of freedom. And when we do, freedom works."

This is not to suggest that all American wars have been fought for base motives, cloaked by self-serving moralistic rhetoric, but rather that Americans have little genuine understanding of the major role played by war throughout the American experience.
Historians, however, are well aware that war taught Americans how to fight, helped unite the diverse American population, and helped stimulate the national economy, among other significant things. But this is not the message that they have presented to the American people, concerned perhaps they might undermine Americans' self-image.
Just how frequent war has been, and how central wars have been to the evolution of the United States, only becomes clear when you start to make a list.

American wars begin with the first Indian attack in 1622 in Jamestown, Virginia, followed by the Pequot War in New England in 1635-36, and King Philips' War, in 1675-76, which resulted in the destruction of almost half the towns in Massachusetts. Other wars and skirmishes with Native American Indians would follow until 1900.

There were four major imperial wars between 1689 and 1763 involving England and its North American colonies and the French (and their Native American Indian allies), Spanish, and Dutch empires. During roughly the same years, 1641 to 1759, there were 18 settler outbreaks, five rising to the level of major insurrections (such as Bacon's Rebellion in Virginia, 1676-1677, Leisler's Rebellion in New York, 1689-1692, and Coode's Rebellion in Maryland, 1689-1692), and 40 riots.

Americans gained their independence from England and boundaries out to the Mississippi River, as a consequence of the Revolutionary War.
The second war against England, 1812-1815, reinforced our independence, while 40 wars with the Native American Indians between the 1622 and 1900 resulted in millions upon millions of acres of land being added to the national domain.

In 1848, the entire southwest, including California, Arizona, New Mexico, and parts of Utah and Wyoming, was obtained through war with Mexico. The Civil War between 1861 and 1865 was simply the bloodiest war in American history.
America's overseas empire began with the Spanish-American War and Philippine Insurrection (1898-1902) by which the U.S. gained control of the Philippines, Cuba and Puerto Rico.

Then, there were World Wars I and II, the Korean Police Action (1949 - 1952), and the longest -- and most expensive war -- in American history, the Vietnam War between 1959 and 1975.

Meanwhile, between 1789 and 1945, there were at least 200 presidentially directed military actions all over the globe. Among other places, these military actions involved the shelling of Indochina in 1849 and the U.S. military occupation of virtually every Caribbean and Central-American country between 1904 and 1934. Indeed, in his effort to justify U.S. military intervention in Cuba against Fidel Castro, on September 17, 1962, Secretary of State Dean Rusk presented a list to a U.S. Senate Hearing of all of these 200 plus "precedents" (now called "low intensity conflicts") from 1789 to 1960.
During the Cold War between 1945 and 1989, the U.S. waged war, directly or through surrogates, openly and covertly, from military bases all over the world.

After the Cold War ended in 1989, other important military actions have been undertaken, such as the Gulf War (January and February 1991 in Iraq), in the former Yugoslavia (in 1999), and the 2001 war against the Taliban government and international terrorists in Afghanistan and the Philippines in 2003. To this roster, we must add the 2003 war against Iraq, to be followed, perhaps, by one with North Korea, which has lately brandished its nuclear weapons and missiles.

American historians have avidly studied war, especially the Civil War and World War II, but their focus has almost always been on war causation, battles, generalship, battlefield tactics and strategy, and so on. Overlooked, for the most part, are the general and specific effects of war upon American cultural life; the possible connections between war and civilian violence is still largely unexplored territory. Has war directly or indirectly encouraged an American predisposition toward aggressiveness and the use of violence or was it the reverse?

This question has never been satisfactorily investigated by American historians or other scholars. Yet, the overwhelming majority of historians have always known that America was -- and is -- a violent country. But they have said very little about it, depriving the population of a realistic understanding about this important aspect of their national culture. This omission is most clearly observable in U.S. history textbooks used in high schools, colleges and universities, on the one hand, and popular histories derived from these texts, on the other, which have never devoted serious attention to the topic of the violence in America, let alone sought to explain it.

Consequently, there seems little genuine understanding about the centrality of violence in American life and history.
The overwhelming majority of American historians have not studied, written about, or discussed America's "high violence" environment, not because of a lack of hard information or knowledge about the frequent and widespread use of violence, but because of an unwillingness to confront the reality that violence and American culture are inextricably intertwined.

Many prominent historians recognized this years ago.
In the introduction to his 1970 collection of primary documents, "American Violence: A Documentary History," two-time Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Richard Hofstadter wrote: "What is impressive to one who begins to learn about American violence is its extraordinary frequency, its sheer commonplaceness in our history, its persistence into very recent and contemporary times, and its rather abrupt contrast with our pretensions to singular national virtue." Indeed, Hofstadter wrote the "legacy" of the violent 1960s would be a commitment by historians systematically to study American violence.

But most American historians have studiously avoided the topic or somehow clouded the issue. In 1993, in his magisterial study, "The History of Crime and Punishment in America," for example, Stanford University Historian Lawrence Friedman devoted a chapter to the many forms of American violence. Then, in a very revealing chapter conclusion, Friedman wrote: "American violence must come from somewhere deep in the American personality ... [it] cannot be accidental; nor can it be genetic. The specific facts of American life made it what it is ... crime has been perhaps a part of the price of liberty ... [but] American violence is still a historical puzzle." Precisely what is it that historians are unwilling to discuss? Basically, there are three forms of American violence: mob violence, interpersonal violence, and war.
What is the extent of mob violence?

Indiana University Historian Paul Gilje, in his 1997 book, "Rioting in America," stated there were at least 4,000 riots between the early 1600s and 1992. Gilje asserted that "without an understanding of the impact of rioting we cannot fully comprehend the history of the American people."
This is a position that director Martin Scorsese just made his own in the film, "Gangs of New York," which focuses on the July 1863 Draft Act Riots in New York City as the historical pivot around which America's urban experience revolved. However, occasional gory movie depictions of violent riots, or Civil War battles, as in "Gods and Generals," provide little real understanding of a nation's history.

M.I.T. Historian Robert Fogelson, in his 1971 book, "Violence as Protest: a Study of Riots and Ghettos," concluded that "for three and a half centuries Americans have resorted to violence in order to reach goals otherwise unattainable ... indeed, it is hardly an exaggeration to say that the native white majority has rioted in some way and at some time against every minority group in America and yet Americans regard rioting not only as illegitimate but, even more significant, as aberrant."
Part of the fascination with group violence is the spectacle of mob rampages. But for historians there is more; group violence is viewed as a "response" to changing economic, political, social, cultural, demographic or religious conditions. Thus, however violent the episodes were, historians could see larger "reasons" for these group behaviors; somehow, these actions reflected a "cause." (This might be likened to the way many American historians still view the southern secession movement and Civil War. Seeking to maintain their institution of human slavery, southerners started the bloodiest war in American history which almost destroyed the union. But because they claimed to be fighting for their "freedom," historians have treated their action as a legitimate cause, whereas in other nations such action is ordinarily viewed as treason).

Now, to the nitty-gritty: How many victims did riots and collective violence claim over the 400-year American historical experience?
This can never accurately be known, considering it includes official and unofficial violence against Native American Indians, African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Asians and untold riots, vigilante actions and lynchings, among other things.

But a conservative guesstimate of, perhaps, about 2,000,000 deaths and serious injuries between 1607 and 2001 (or about 5,063 each and every year for 395 years) seems a reasonable -- and quite conservative -- number for analytical purposes, until more precise statistics are available.

At least 753,000 Native American Indians were the intended victims of warfare and genocide between 1622 and 1900 in what is now the United States of America, according to one scholar. The number for African-Americans might equal or exceed the estimate for the Indians, 750,000.
The total number of deaths for all other forms of collective violence seems well under 20,000. The greatest American riot, the New York City Draft Act riots of July 1863, resulted in between 105 and 150 deaths, while the major 1960s riots (Watts, Los Angeles, Newark, N.J., and Detroit, Mich., accounted for a total of 103 deaths, and the 1992 Los Angeles riot claimed 60 lives. The estimate of deaths from the 326 vigilante episodes is between 750 and 1,000. Approximately 5,000 individuals were known to have been lynched between 1882 and 1968, and about 2,000 more killed in labor-management violence.
Horrendous as this sounds -- and it is horrendous -- this 2,000,000 figure pales when compared to the major form of American violence which historians have routinely ignored until very recently. Historians of violence have largely ignored individual interpersonal violence, which, in sharp contrast to group violence, is very frequent, sometimes very personal -- and far deadlier than group violence.

In 1997, two distinguished legal scholars, Franklin Zimring and Gordon Hawkins, compared crime rates in the G-7 countries (Canada, England, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and the United States) between the 1960s and 1990s in their book, "Crime Is Not The Problem: Lethal Violence In America Is." Bluntly, they stated their conclusion: "What is striking about the quantity of lethal violence in the United States is that it is a third-world phenomenon occurring in a first-world nation."
Instances of personal violence include but are not limited to barroom brawls, quarrels between acquaintances, business associates, lovers or sexual rivals, family members, or during the commission of a robbery, mugging, or other crime.

How does the carnage in this category contrast with the 2,000,000 victims of group violence between 1607 and 2001?
During the 20th century alone, well over 10 million Americans were victims of violent crimes -- and 10 percent of them -- or 1,089,616 -- were murdered between 1900 and 1997. The "total" number of "officially reported" homicides, aggravated assaults, robberies and rapes between 1937 and 1970 was 9,816,646, but these were undercounts!

Every year during the 20th century at least 10 percent of the crimes committed have been violent crimes -- homicides, aggravated assaults, forcible rapes and robberies. Between 1900 and 1997, there were 1,089,616 homicides. How were they murdered? 375,350 by firearms and the rest were due to other means, including beating, strangling, stabbing and cutting, drowning, poisoning, burning and axing.


Between 1900 and 1971, 596,984 Americans were murdered. Between 1971 and 1997, there were another 592,616 killed in similar ways.
More Americans were killed by other Americans during the 20th century than died in the Spanish-American war (11,000 "deaths in service"), World War I (116,000 "deaths in service"), World War II (406,000 "deaths in service"), the Korean police action (55,000 "deaths in service"), and the Vietnam War (109,000 "deaths in service") combined. ("Deaths in Service" statistics are greater than combat deaths and were used here to make the contrast between war and civilian interpersonal violence rates even clearer.)
So, what accounts for the American ability to overlook collective violence, interpersonal violence, and war?

The explanation lies, first, with historians' abdication of responsibility systematically to deal with the issue of violence in America ... and, second, with the American population's refusal directly to confront any very ugly reality -- which came first I do not know. This is what historians refer to as " mutual causation."

There are, of course, several factors that have enabled Americans to overlook their violent past. Many of these were actually defined by Richard Hofstadter in his 1970 introduction to "American Violence: A Documentary History." First, Americans have been told by historians that they are a "latter-day chosen people" with a providential exemption from the woes that plagued all other human societies. Historians of the 1950s had not denied that America's past was replete with violence; they just preferred during the Cold War to emphasize a more positive vision of America. Historians refer to this as the "myth of innocence" or the "myth of the new world Eden."
In an open, free, democratic society, graced with an abundance of natural resources, and without the residue of repressive European institutions, virtually any white person who worked hard had the opportunity to achieve the "American Dream" of material success and respectability.

Violence, especially political violence when it erupted, was dismissed out of hand as somehow "un-American," an unfortunate by-product of temporary racial, ethnic, religious and industrial conflicts.

Second, American violence had not been a major issue for federal, state or local officials because it was rarely directed against them; it was rarely revolutionary violence. Rather, American violence has almost always been citizen-against-citizen, white against black, white against Indian, Protestant against Catholic or Mormon, Catholic against Protestant, white against Asian or Hispanic.

The lack of a violent revolutionary tradition in America is the principal reason why Americans have never been disarmed, while in every European nation the reverse is true.

So, for the most part, Americans, laymen and historians alike, have been able to practice what some historians have termed "selective" recollection or "historical amnesia" about the violence in their past and present. Since the 1960s, historians' works, cumulatively, have demonstrated a causal connection between American culture and the American predisposition to use violence. We might now be experiencing yet another by-product of this national penchant for violence -- a willingness to engage in a major war without asking very many hard questions. It's the American Way.
Ira M. Leonard has been a professor of history at Southern Connecticut State University for over 30 years. This article is adapted from a speech presented to the Connecticut Academy of Arts and Sciences in January 2003.
__________________________

The rising of the ire is only for those that cannot live in the future without looking at the past, your statement( “you wouldn't want them to bomb/rape/pillage your lovely little island inhabited by the ancestors of British detritus”) speak for itself, by the way the same British detritus colonized your country too…!

raton
 

animal

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Raton,all I can say is to have wrote all that, you have entirely to much free time on your hands, go build a Gyro or a Helicopter.
 

OzyRuss

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[30 yrs,+] geeez...i'm old.
Bloody hell.............me brains gone into meltdown here, hell of a read......

thought i was here to share gyro stuff...........:typing:....this is all too much for this brown duck..........phew

But............somewhere else here, can recall replying to a matter of mass gun killings in USA, they are happining too often, kids shooting the hell out of classmates etc.........you pack their lunchbox, and toss in a 357 just in case.

The topic is red hot, and why govt does not bite the bullit, and CONTROL firearms has me buggered. Arming your family with firearms to protect themselves is not the way..........your situation is dead set nightmare stuff.

Even the bleedin TV is all bash and kill stuff..........that's right even the kids programs...........ol road runner etc etc etc.........all pushing the same theme...........violence, in one way shape or form.

shutup russ..........Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
 

BEN S

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Raton..

Raton..

I appreciate the fact that this has probably been one of the most "civilized" discussions the off topic section has seen on politics. Having said that, the professors that you are paraphrasing and quoting are contradicting themselves in the same article. On the one hand they say that no studies have been done on the violence question at hand and then turn around to say that many studies show....
I think that perhaps somehow you have missed the intent of my posts. It doesn't make any difference to an American what the rest of the world thinks of us. Are we violent "you bet your sweet ass!" the average american is aware of our violent history, but europeans chastising us for it only makes the average American angry at their hypocrisy.
the spanish inqusition, the crusades,the napoleonic wars,the holocaust and all the other violent opportunities for human kind to snuff each other out happened on the other side of the pond, but collectively lets forget about our violent history and bash the U.S.
None of this has ANYTHING to do with my origional point that you not only should stand up for and protect yourself,but that you MUST defend yourself morally and practically if nothing else than to pre-empt further aggression.
Look at the ridiculous situation in the gulf of Aden...If the Mercahnt Marines hadn't adopted a policy lets pay off the pirates but instead lets kill them the "skinnies" would have found a different occupation. Now it's turning into a pissing match that we should EASILY be able to squash, but our
"great appeaser" will more than likely drag this out into a political posturing session.
If your sink has a leak you use wrench, if crimanals are attacking you use guns. Period
Thats all the time I have to devote to this thread, it's been enlightning. I hope you and your family are never the victims of violence. You seem ill equipped to deal with it. Good luck
Ben S
 

Sheldon

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Wow didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest here...

Wow didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest here...

But the thread was posted to show what happened there, and that it can easily happen here if we are not diligent...

As to your crime stats in the lands other than the US.... You say crime is down... true if you take the numbers from your heavily government influenced media, not true of you get them from a source not so influenced....

Fact the farmer was in a darkened room, how do you know which direction someone is facing in the dark... His having been the victim of multiple robbery's and assault, when someone breaks in if you are not in fear of your life, then you are being way over simplistic. "Criminals have guns" and with the Judaical system most of us are cursed with they are not afraid to not leave any witnesses behind, drugs tend to fog their thought process more often than not.

As to no mass shootings since (yet), just wait for it, as it was aptly said, "the criminals still get the guns.... but they shoot each other...."

Golly that sounds like it was here in the 30's when crime was in it's heyday, then they started shooting citizens.... N the citizens and the police started shooting back... that ended that....

It has been said "in those day's every one was polite, they smiled and said hello... no one insulted your wife or you... because almost every one had a pocket gun, and no one lived in fear"

Why is it that all these horrific killings always seem to happen someplace no one can legally have a gun.... In Israel, school shootings are just a thing of the past....
Why could it be because they arm their teachers.... Yes they are in a hostile land but you never hear of a gunman entering one of their schools or institutions and going postal.
Is this the only viable solution... for them it was but to each their own.

So are you willing to sacrifice your's and your family's life in order not harm someone which very likely has a huge list of priors, AKA assault, robbery, murder, drugs, and is violent and dangerous on the off chance that if you roll over and play dead, then I feel sorry for your next of kin....

When you defend your family from harm, You are not just protecting them from harm, but all the family's that are next on the BG's hit list...

It's not just Biblical but is in all forms of basic law.... "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" is the human way and is a necessity to survive in the hostile environment that if too often created by those that pretend to help us, but in turn do more harm than good....
 

raton

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I appreciate the fact that this has probably been one of the most "civilized" discussions the off topic section has seen on politics. Having said that, the professors that you are paraphrasing and quoting are contradicting themselves in the same article. On the one hand they say that no studies have been done on the violence question at hand and then turn around to say that many studies show....
I think that perhaps somehow you have missed the intent of my posts. It doesn't make any difference to an American what the rest of the world thinks of us. Are we violent "you bet your sweet ass!" the average american is aware of our violent history, but europeans chastising us for it only makes the average American angry at their hypocrisy.
the spanish inqusition, the crusades,the napoleonic wars,the holocaust and all the other violent opportunities for human kind to snuff each other out happened on the other side of the pond, but collectively lets forget about our violent history and bash the U.S.
None of this has ANYTHING to do with my origional point that you not only should stand up for and protect yourself,but that you MUST defend yourself morally and practically if nothing else than to pre-empt further aggression.
Look at the ridiculous situation in the gulf of Aden...If the Mercahnt Marines hadn't adopted a policy lets pay off the pirates but instead lets kill them the "skinnies" would have found a different occupation. Now it's turning into a pissing match that we should EASILY be able to squash, but our
"great appeaser" will more than likely drag this out into a political posturing session.
If your sink has a leak you use wrench, if crimanals are attacking you use guns. Period
Thats all the time I have to devote to this thread, it's been enlightning. I hope you and your family are never the victims of violence. You seem ill equipped to deal with it. Good luck
Ben S

Ben

I don’t think this is political at all , I own a tiny condo in Bedford, Indiana, a few months back was driving from Indianapolis towards Bedford guess was admiring the scenery and going a bit slow, the guy in the back of my car dint appreciate my pace, overtook me and drove parallel to my car shouting something, next is see a gun pointed to me, nearly pissed myself and abruptly stopped the car, well…I was shaking and after a while regained my composure drove to town directly to a the Police Station, made a complaint and few days after had a phone call to come to the Police Station, I went the next day and the officer in charge told me that is little he can do as the guy dint fire the gun..! He was well known in town and he would apologize, he never did. I thought…nice country. America is a violent country you need a gun to fend criminals and I see if guns are outlawed the criminals would have the upper hand, but in the same breath if I had a gun and a predisposition to violence probably will have confronted that crazy driver. I’m no chicken but learned in extern situation to use my hands, fortunately never had to use…if you know what I mean. I won’t make a comment about the pirates, that would very political.

Take care

raton
 

Sheldon

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Ben

I don’t think this is political at all , I own a tiny condo in Bedford, Indiana, a few months back was driving from Indianapolis towards Bedford guess was admiring the scenery and going a bit slow, the guy in the back of my car dint appreciate my pace, overtook me and drove parallel to my car shouting something, next is see a gun pointed to me, nearly pissed myself and abruptly stopped the car, well…I was shaking and after a while regained my composure drove to town directly to a the Police Station, made a complaint and few days after had a phone call to come to the Police Station, I went the next day and the officer in charge told me that is little he can do as the guy dint fire the gun..! He was well known in town and he would apologize, he never did. I thought…nice country. America is a violent country you need a gun to fend criminals and I see if guns are outlawed the criminals would have the upper hand, but in the same breath if I had a gun and a predisposition to violence probably will have confronted that crazy driver. I’m no chicken but learned in extern situation to use my hands, fortunately never had to use…if you know what I mean. I won’t make a comment about the pirates, that would very political.

Take care

raton
That is called brandishing and is highly illegal here in MI, so is Road Rage AKA a single digit gesture, carrying in your vehicle in that manner with out a CCW permit also illegal.... any of these will land you in jail here N I bet it is the same there if you just pushed it a bit harder. That is why I always have my cell and will 911 any bit of stupidity I see on the road...

Similar incident N me... 2 years ago on the 40 in GA. I had picked up my daughter from BASIC in SC and was in route to AIT in AL... 14:00 sun is bright, sky is clear, I have the cruse set at the speed limit -1 per GPS...

Silver Grey Honda following a POJ PU full of junk, not tied down doing 55 in a 70 both in the right lane....
100 yards back I signal and go to the passing lane, less than 50 feet away the Honda takes the left lane (no signal) and does not speed up, slow down just keeps his position so no one can pass...
I follow him for over 5 miles waiting for him to either pass the PU or drop back he does neiter.... So I do a flash to pass...
He hits the breaks and slows down to 45, then punches it so no one can pass...
By now there is a bunch of traffic behind me and his stupid maneuver can easily get someone killed....

So after about 5 more miles I look at the wife and said 'Watch this..... I flash to pass again and yank my vehicle into the right lane, and right on cue he hits the breaks, I swing left lane and pass....

I immediately 911 him with a full description of the car, license no, individual, road rage, etc to the Georgia State Police.... They take road rage very seriously down there..

1/4 mile ahead of him I watch in the rear-view, and talked to the dispatcher, Police officer sneaks up behind the guy, I said if you want to have some fun have him flash it headlights......
He did and the guy did, and top the lights came on.... Yeah I still laugh about that.....
But I wonder, how many tickets do you think he got, how much did it cost him, and is he out of jail yet....
 

magilla

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Hmmmmph.

I am a National Guardsman, and I own a Model 1911 .45 ACP.

Laser sight, and I am DEAD ON accuurate inside of 50 feet. Laser spot = bullet hole. Walking, kneeling, moving tactically. I train with it.

I feel I am in compliance not only with the words, but with the spiritof the Second Amendment.

That said, understand that I am NOT a supporter of the NRA, which thinks that it is the RIGHT of every swinging' Richard out there to own, carry in public, and wield an M16, M60, M2, Uzi or Spas 12 automatic shotgun, whatever you can get your hands on. And affiliation with the National Guard is not a pre-requisite.

I would have no problems with the NRA if they didn't always conveniently forget the first half of the Second amendment: "In order to preserve a well regulated militia, ..."

Simply stated, if every swinging Richard above belonged to the militia (in 1903re-named the National Guard) I would have no issues if they carried.

FACT: The Second Amendment was not written for home protection against burglars...

A little history lesson here folks, if you can stand it:

The Second Amendment was written to preserve our country's freedom: primarily, to create a balance of keeping an armed populace as a check to the threat from a standing Army.

Also remember the context in which the 2nd Amendment was written:

1) Every able-bodied male between 15 and 75 was REQUIRED to serve their local/state militia.
2) The Federal government did not have the purse to equip 100% of the able-bodied male population.

(Fun fact: In the Articles of the Constitution, prior to the Bill of Rights, the size and funding of federal forces (being the Army) were restricted. The Founding Fathers had a healthy fear of a standing Army, especially after having the British Army holed up in our homes and enforcing the King's taxes. The Second Amendment was written primarily to create/allow for a standing militia (which played a large role in the defeat of the British Army) as a check and balance on having our own standing federal Army. Yep - an armed militia that was was "of the people" was the check to our own standing federal Army, which was seen as a necessary evil to protect us from invasion by other countries.)

Folks, that is the truth, no matter what propaganda either the federal government or the NRA feeds you. Look it up yourself. But be careful if you look on the internet. You will find whatever information you want to support your opinion if you are either pre-disposed to support gun control or are pro-NRA. A lot is on the internet either way, and it is easy to be misled.

Read the documents (Constitution and Bill of Rights) themselves, in their entirety, and then look up what the citizenship requirements were back in the 1770's. It may open your eyes.

Folks, we are where we are today, and it is a far cry from what the Founding Fathers intended - both in the fact that we no longer are required as a populace to SERVE, as well as we now have the federal government involved in gun control. All the way around a sad, sad situation.

As to the story above: Sad that it is used so shamelessly as a piece of propaganda for the NRA, for it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Second Amendment.

Oh yeah, lest you think that I am a liberal pansy: The robbers got what they deserved. So did the shooter. He was dumb enough to broadcast his intent to kill publicly, and then shot the intruder in the back. 3-1/2 years is not too bad a sentence for killing someone, arguably in cold blood.

Agree, disagree, whatever: I serve to defend your right to your opinion.

I just hope you can respect my position.

Flame On!!!
 

brett s

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I think it would be a wonderful thing if everyone did some military service in this country - I did 6 years active duty in the Army myself.

No, I don't think everyone needs fully automatic weapons at home - don't have any myself either.

And no, I don't carry one all the time, go around pointing guns at anyone, and haven't ever shot anybody.

Odds are pretty darn good I'll never be put in that situation, but at least I've got the option available.
 

LuftCarl

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I've read all the posts here and have to say something. I am a gun owner. I have at least one of each type: handgun, shotgun, rifle. I've been target shooting and hunting since I was five years old. I've only ever once had to point a gun at someone while in genuine fear for my life. Fortunately, the sight of the .38 pointed less than a foot from the middle of his chest was enough to scare him off even while falling down drunk. I was shaking like a leaf and almost pissed my self thinking I almost killed someone.

The point is: you can say what you want now and be as macho as you want now, but when the time actually comes, the severity and permanence of what you are about to do is crushing. I hope none of you ever have to face that.
 

raton

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That is called brandishing and is highly illegal here in MI, so is Road Rage AKA a single digit gesture, carrying in your vehicle in that manner with out a CCW permit also illegal.... any of these will land you in jail here N I bet it is the same there if you just pushed it a bit harder. That is why I always have my cell and will 911 any bit of stupidity I see on the road...

Similar incident N me... 2 years ago on the 40 in GA. I had picked up my daughter from BASIC in SC and was in route to AIT in AL... 14:00 sun is bright, sky is clear, I have the cruse set at the speed limit -1 per GPS...

Silver Grey Honda following a POJ PU full of junk, not tied down doing 55 in a 70 both in the right lane....
100 yards back I signal and go to the passing lane, less than 50 feet away the Honda takes the left lane (no signal) and does not speed up, slow down just keeps his position so no one can pass...
I follow him for over 5 miles waiting for him to either pass the PU or drop back he does neiter.... So I do a flash to pass...
He hits the breaks and slows down to 45, then punches it so no one can pass...
By now there is a bunch of traffic behind me and his stupid maneuver can easily get someone killed....

So after about 5 more miles I look at the wife and said 'Watch this..... I flash to pass again and yank my vehicle into the right lane, and right on cue he hits the breaks, I swing left lane and pass....

I immediately 911 him with a full description of the car, license no, individual, road rage, etc to the Georgia State Police.... They take road rage very seriously down there..

1/4 mile ahead of him I watch in the rear-view, and talked to the dispatcher, Police officer sneaks up behind the guy, I said if you want to have some fun have him flash it headlights......
He did and the guy did, and top the lights came on.... Yeah I still laugh about that.....
But I wonder, how many tickets do you think he got, how much did it cost him, and is he out of jail yet....
Jesse James country… so they say, the guy in question was very well known to the small community, regular Church attendant, huge property, rich manufacturer and his wife a charity hard working lady, had to sons (town bums) and the local Sheriff was his best friend, well that is according to my attorney, America justice…

raton
 

Arnie Madsen

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I've read all the posts here and have to say something. I am a gun owner. I have at least one of each type: handgun, shotgun, rifle. I've been target shooting and hunting since I was five years old. I've only ever once had to point a gun at someone while in genuine fear for my life. Fortunately, the sight of the .38 pointed less than a foot from the middle of his chest was enough to scare him off even while falling down drunk. I was shaking like a leaf and almost pisssed my self thinking I almost killed someone.

The point is: you can say what you want now and be as macho as you want now, but when the time actually comes, the severity and permanence of what you are about to do is crushing. I hope none of you ever have to face that.

You are exactly right Carl. Thanks.

I was faced with a somewhat similar situation in 1986. No guns were involved but that is beside the point. The guy had a steel pipe and that will kill you just as quick.

My body shop had been extremely busy repairing hundreds of hail damaged cars and I would come back after supper to paint another one to keep up. One night I finished about midnight and put my feet up on the desk for 15 minutes before I headed home.

I had heard a noise and some breaking glass out in the shop and my first thought was some bumpers or something had fallen off a shelf into a customers car. I was just sick thinking I was going to find a bumper through the window of a Collecter Corvette I was working on so I did not rush out to look.

When I finally stepped out of my office into the shop , here was a (big) guy standing there with a 4 foot steel pipe in his hands. He had busted a small window in an overhead door with the pipe and had waited to make sure no alarms were triggered and then crawled thru the opening.

We both stopped in mid-stride and my first thought was (anger) .... this basturd just broke into my place. I took a foolish step toward him and he took a big step toward me holding the pipe like a baseball bat.

All of a sudden fear took over so I started backing up toward the office. When he saw me back off he turned tail and headed back to crawl out the broken window.

Of course I lose a bit of fear , (stupid thing to do) and decided I am not going to let this SOB get away with a break-in. I grabbed him by the legs and pulled him back into the shop. Of course at that point I remember he is a lot bigger and stronger than I am .... and he still has the pipe in his hands ... fear takes over ... time to piss my pants a bit.

I was really lucky. We were face to face , both hanging onto the steel pipe and I could tell there was no way I could overcome the guy. I made a fake attempt to pull the pipe toward me , he pulled back , and I tripped him backwards on the floor , me on top , and both of us with both hands on the pipe.

Trouble was even though I had the advantage of being on top , he started pushing me and the pipe away and tried to get up. Fear takes over again and I realize If I dont subdue this guy , I am in trouble.

I faked a pull on the pipe , he pulled back , and I bashed the pipe down across his face . I don't like this part but I ended up having to bash the pipe down enough times it broke all his teeth before he let go. Trouble is he let go and tried to gouge my eyes out with his fingers. (I dont like this part) but I grabbed his fingers and snapped them like a twig and then proceeded to gouged his eyes real good. Now that I have the upper hand , a bit of anger creeps back in and I spent the next few minutes taking out all my frustrations on him.

Lots of adrenalin flowing by now , he is subdued , so I grabbed him by the ankles and dragged him up to the office. Still having a sense of humour I handed him the phone and told him to call the police. Trouble is he couldnt see , and besides , his fingers were broken and couldnt dial the phone. Trying to be helpfull I dialed the number for him and held the phone down by his mouth , trouble is he had no teeth left and the police could not make out what he was saying so I completed the call myself.

I unlocked the office door , sat back down at my desk to finished the cold coffee sitting on my desk. The RCMP guy slowly came in with his gun drawn , saw the guy on the floor , and me with my feet up sipping coffee. he put his gun away and clapped his hands. We had caught a live one and everybody was happy.

I dont like violence or fighting , besides I am not very good at it. Over the next couple of days I had regrets and feelings of guilt. I started thinking this could have just been some guy looking for small change for a drink or something. I wished I had not done what I did. The cops had a hard time figuring out who he was and had to send his prints away to make an ID. Every day that went by made my guilt even worse. Probably just some homeless derelict I thought.

Four day later the Cop comes by the office , his eyes are big as saucers , turn out this guy was being held in a remand sentence for a manslaughter charge. He had overpowered his guards , escaped , stole a car and made it to my town and had run out of gas. He was breaking into my shop to get a fresh car and keep heading west. I lost all my feelings of guilt and realized how stupid I was to tangle with the guy. Made me want to pisss my pants again. He got 10 years for the murder charge and 2 years for the break in. Our injustice system let him out on parole in 3 years.

8 years after the break-in I was subpeoned to appear and testify before a "dangerous offender" hearing. This guy (Out on parole of course) was up on another manslaughter charge. He had beat up an elderly man to steal his wallet and the old guy died of heart failure.

I had center stage in the courtroom for my testimony and when one of the prosecutors tried to point out the error of me "taking the law into my own hands" I readily agreed ( I knew what he was working up to) I told him my error was tiny compared to the justice system who let the bandit out in 3 years to kill again. The prosecutor changed his tune pretty quick.

Sorry for the long post. Back to what Carl said , he is correct ....
The point is: you can say what you want now and be as macho as you want now, but when the time actually comes, the severity and permanence of what you are about to do is crushing. I hope none of you ever have to face that.
Arnie
Bell 47

ps:
Beleive it or not , the worst thing that could have happened to me was if the bandit had stolen a car from my shop. The only vehicle driveable was a collector Corvette owned by a super fussy customer. It was in to fix a tiny stone chip in the paint. The owner had made me assure him his car was safe in my hands. If I had to call him and tell him it had been stolen ..... well .... that damn near would kill me.!!!! Luck was on my side that day and I am thankfull.
 

Arnie Madsen

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I think it would be a wonderful thing if everyone did some military service in this country - I did 6 years active duty in the Army myself.

No, I don't think everyone needs fully automatic weapons at home - don't have any myself either.

And no, I don't carry one all the time, go around pointing guns at anyone, and haven't ever shot anybody.

Odds are pretty darn good I'll never be put in that situation, but at least I've got the option available.
Brett

What you say makes complete sense. I am pretty sure every man in Switzerland is a member of the voulenteer army , or has military training. Something like that.

I also think Switzerland has a low crime rate , at least as far as home break ins. Every homeowner keeps his military firearms in his home. It is a good system.

On top of that , if all the men in our countries had some military training as well as training in making split second life and death decisions when confronted , it would keep us responsible and less chance of making a mistake. Simply having firearms is only part of it , knowing when to use them is important.

Come to think of it , if all the bandits had been required to take the same training .... maybe they would chose a different career. At the very least they would know what they are up against and maybe have second thoughts if they knew a trained militia man was behind every door.

What if every immigrant was required to qualify for a defend the nation type of requirement to gain citizenship. It would solve a lot of problems and preserve even greater freedoms. I am probably dreaming , but it does sound like a good idea.

I hope somebody can chime in here who knows more about how Switzerland does it. I have never heard anything but good things about it.

In my younger years I was in our reserve Militia , which is just a couple notches above Boy Scouts with guns and army trucks. I think the US Reserve system is better, If we had it here I would be a member.

If I understand it right , your National guard is a part time Military career in harmony with your normal civilian career?? :):) INCLUDING HELICOPTERS:):)

Arnie
Bell 47
 
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Arnie Madsen

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Wow didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest here...

But the thread was posted to show what happened there, and that it can easily happen here if we are not diligent...

As to your crime stats in the lands other than the US.... You say crime is down... true if you take the numbers from your heavily government influenced media, not true of you get them from a source not so influenced....

....
This is a good thread Sheldon. Glad you started it. To concur with your above quote this is what has been happening here (Canada)

Handguns have always been illegal in Canada . That should stop most of the firearm crimes right? Truth is , there are hundreds of thousands of hanguns here , probably millions. Majority of them are in the hands of criminals and used on a regular basis. In other words the law has not worked. However our media would never agree.

Several years ago a Liberal government came up with another bright idea. Require every Canadian gun owner to register his firearms. Long rifles included. That will stop gun crimes right?

Truth is , only honest law abiding long gun owners registered weapons. Keep in mind anyone who did not register automatically became a criminal . That includes honest law abiding duck hunters and deer hunters who didnt want to register.!!!!!!

Over a billion dollars was spent by the govt during the registration process. The registry was faulty right from the start and never worked. I should also mention that not one single criminal registered his guns.

Since then illegal handgun crime has increased dramatically , especially Toronto and now Vancouver. The Bandits are popping off rounds every day on the news. The good news is they are mostly killing each other over turf wars. Trouble is some innocent bystanders have been hit , and mistaken identities have killed a few innocents as well.

Gun control laws , gun registration laws have not worked !!!. All it does is arm the criminal and disarm the responsible gun owner who was never a problem.

The good news is , our minority Conservative govt. is pushing through legislation to repeal the usless gun registry. You can hear the Canadian Liberals screaming clear to Texas. Apollegies to Texas for all the racket.

I have never been a conspiracy theorist type of guy , but guess what , they are correct when they claim "gun laws" are intended to eventually disarm the general population. We saw it starting here .

First , they bring a gentle law in .... you must store guns in a locked cabinet. Then they bring in another little addition .... you cannot buy or sell a gun without a permit. You cannot even give your gun to your brother without a permit.

Then they bring in the compulsory registration of all guns. Now they know what you own of course. Next thing they start to ban certain auto and semi auto rifles. They know you have them and you are cornered. But remember at first they assured everyone they only were interested in having them registered. Then they ban more gun types. The conspiracy theory guys were right for a change. Canada has proven it. Be aware of Leftists who try to protect you with new rules. I am not kidding. They are the most dangerous people in society. Responsible gun owners are not.

I think I have worn out my soap box. I am going to get off it now. Take care.

Arnie
Bell 47
 

LuftCarl

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My situation never got violent. Here's the deal.

I was just out of high school about 19 years old. I had a 1967 Firebird that had a flat recently and had the 50mph, 3000 mile, CO2 inflated spare on the left rear. My buddy Eric and I had planned to go duck hunting at the Mendota Wildlife Refuge on Saturday. They let 600 people in. The reservations line get the first 300. The non-reservation line gets the second 300. Even if you have a reservation, it just means you get to be one of the first 300. No blind is actually reserved. If you have a favorite spot, you still go out the night before and sleep in line to be ahead of the other 299, or however many you happen to beat out there.

As luck would have it, I screwed up and promised to take my girlfriend out that Friday night. Neither her nor Eric were too keen on me breaking my promises so I figured I take Dawn out and get her home early. Her parents loved that idea. They were sure we were having sex. (They were right.) So earlier in the afternoon that Friday, Eric and I loaded up his pale green Ford Econoline van with decoys, waders, calls, shotguns, shells, etc. Eric went out and got in line early. After I dropped off Dawn, I'd drive out there and meet him in line. Good deal. Everybody is happy.

I dropped her off around 10pm and got home to change clothes and get the heck out to Mendota. It is in west Fresno County out where a bunch of rivers, sloughs, and canals all pass close to each other. The waterfowl love it. So I get home and I'm racing around trying to get going quickly and my mom is reminding me of everything I need to take. I keep telling her everything is in Eric's van. I just need to get some grubbies on and take a snack. Mom asks if I have my gun. No, for the umpteenth time, it's in the van. Well that was the problem. She didn't want me driving through southwest Fresno at Midnight without a gun. That may sound far fetched, but my entire family was taught how to shoot and how deadly serious handling firearms was, so mom and dad were cool with that. Southwest Fresno is no where to be late at night, especially if you were white. That may sound racist, but the facts are the facts if you like them or not. So I took her snub-nosed .38 J-frame S&W. It's the five shot revolver.

I felt kinda stupid with this little revolver and I put it in the center console of the Firebird. I'd never had any trouble out there before, but it made mom feel better. I promptly forgot I had it. Whitesbridge Road (Highway 180) is a two lane surface street all the way out through Kerman and on out to where it curves northwest into Highway 33 just before entering Mendota. The wildlife refuge is on the south side of 180 before getting to the curve. I made it out past Kerman and on the length of road where there is nothing but farm land for 20 miles. I'm having a hard time keeping it under 50 mph with a 326 under the hood, plus Eric is waiting and I'm not going to get much sleep. I'm putting along at 50mph and a set of headlights come zooming up on me from behind.

This car could have easily swept into the other lane and blasted right on past, but they slam on the brakes and get right on my ass. They dropped back and zoomed up on me again and then proceeded to flash the highbeams at me repeatedly. I kept putting along at 50. Eventually they wake up and start to pass. Thank God. But no. They pull up alongside and pace me for miles. They stare at me, point at my sad, little tire, point up in the sky, look at me like they are wondering why I don't look up at what they are pointing to. Five big, drunk, mexicans. They were all drinking beer in the car alongside me. They threw the empty cans at my car and laughed. I slowed ever so slightly until they finally pulled ahead for a while and then sped off at high speed. Whew! Up ahead, they were on the side of the road taking a piss. I passed......and it all started over again.

The second time I tried the slowing trick, they slowed too. Eventually they started cutting me off and hitting the brakes. They finally cut me off bad enough I had to stop. I tried backing up, but they matched my move. This game had escalated. When it became obvious that trying to get away was a futile effort, I stopped and waited for their next move. I was scared ****less, sweating, heart racing, wonder what the hell I was going to do. This big, fat guy got out of the front passenger seat and came back with his beer in his hand. I quickly made sure the doors were locked and the windows rolled up tight. He tried to open my door. I was in shear panic! This dude was huge, and so were his four buddies. He is saying **** in spanish I don't understand and laughing looking back at his buddies. He tries the door again. I was afraid he'd break my window. In english, he says, "Come out, man. We just want to talk." Yeah, sure. I can't out run these guys in my car because of the tire. I can't take five dudes each of which weighed twice what I did at the time, even drunk. There is absolutely no other traffic on the road and cell phones hadn't been invented yet. I was SKREWED!

I knew if I just sat there they would eventually break the window and drag my ass out. This is when I remembered the .38. Keeping eye contact with my antagonist, I slipped the 38 out of the console and popped the snap on the holster. Passing it under my legs, I dropped the holster and got it in my left hand. I'm left handed. With my right hand, I reached across and unlocked my door such that this drunk pig could see. I pulled the hammer back with my left thumb as my heart rate tripled and I began shaking. I'm thinking, "I might have to really shoot this guy." There are five of them and I've got five shots. I'm wondering if I shoot this guy, am I going to have to shoot the other four? F&*K!! Am I going to have to kill five people tonight!

The dude sees me unlock the door and immediately reaches for it. He yanks the door open and stumbles forward to grab me. I lift my left arm straight out and up, finger on the trigger and shaking uncontrollably and scream, "You're gonna die!!!" He stops, sees the gun, and throws himself over backwards and falls down trying to get away. He threw his beer out into the middle of the road and scrambled back to his car screaming in spanish. They tear out of there and don't come back. Meanwhile, I have a nervous breakdown next to the almond orchard.

Thank God that dude had the sense to take off. The gun was less than a foot from his chest at the defining moment. I could not miss. He most certainly would be a dead man. This is the part that disturbed me the most. With the hammer pulled back, the trigger advances 95% of its travel. It takes very little pressure for that last little bit and the gun goes off. I was so FREAKING scared and shaking so bad, I could have just as easily shot that poor bastard on accident. Then what....I shoot the rest? Maybe the other four would have bailed on their friend and split. I don't know. Thank God I didn't have to find out.

I sat on the side of the road another twenty minutes before I felt up to driving the rest of the way out the the refuge. Eric was pissed because I was so late. I didn't care. I don't even recall how the hunt went that day. I just wanted to go home. I didn't tell my parents about that until years later. I knew it was an isolated incident and I didn't want to be banned from going out there again. But despite the fact that the other guy brought it all on, killing him would have haunted me for a long time.

This is why I say, you can talk tough now, but you don't really know until your time comes.
 
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Sheldon

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Battle Creek Mi.
Jesse James country… so they say, the guy in question was very well known to the small community, regular Church attendant, huge property, rich manufacturer and his wife a charity hard working lady, had to sons (town bums) and the local Sheriff was his best friend, well that is according to my attorney, America justice…

raton
So file charges with the state police.....

The dude sees me unlock the door and immediately reaches for it. He yanks the door open and stumbles forward to grab me. I lift my left arm straight out and up, finger on the trigger and shaking uncontrollably and scream, "You're gonna die!!!" He stops, sees the gun, and throws himself over backwards and falls down trying to get away. He threw his beer out into the middle of the road and scrambled back to his car screaming in spanish. They tear out of there and don't come back. Meanwhile, I have a nervous breakdown next to the almond orchard.

Thank God that dude had the sense to take off. The gun was less than a foot from his chest at the defining moment. I could not miss. He most certainly would be a dead man. This is the part that disturbed me the most. With the hammer pulled back, the trigger advances 95% of its travel. It takes very little pressure for that last little bit and the gun goes off. I was so FREAKING scared and shaking so bad, I could have just as easily shot that poor bastard on accident. Then what....I shoot the rest? Maybe the other four would have bailed on their friend and split. I don't know. Thank God I didn't have to find out.

I sat on the side of the road another twenty minutes before I felt up to driving the rest of the way out the the refuge. Eric was pissed because I was so late. I didn't care. I don't even recall how the hunt went that day. I just wanted to go home. I didn't tell my parents about that until years later. I knew it was an isolated incident and I didn't want to be banned from going out there again. But despite the fact that the other guy brought it all on, killing him would have haunted me for a long time.

This is why I say, you can talk tough now, but you don't really know until your time comes.
BTDT in Orlando but that is another story.....And if you had not had the .38 the only thing you likely would have have been in time for is your own funeral..... Guns save lives with out a shot ever being fired over 1,000,000 times a year, and that is according to anti gun TIME LIFE....

N here are some nice non government influenced number for you all....

MURDERS (per capita) in the world (ranking): Note stats rounded for brevity.
#24: US @ 0.043/1000 persons
#43: AU @ 0.015/1000 persons
#46: UK @ 0.014/1000 persons

Congratulations. For one of the most restrictive gun law countries, you beat us out by 19 countries. BTW, as the LEAST RESTRICTIVE gun law country, the USA comes in at #24. Colombia and South Africa take 1st and 2nd. Add to that that in the UK many murder cases are charged as manslaughter due to the difficulty of obtaining a conviction for murder.... so their number are low by over 100%

ASSAULT VICTIMS (% of total population) (world ranking):
#2: UK @ 2.8%
#3: AU @ 2.4%
#9: US @ 1.2%

So We have more murders in our country (not all firearm related mind you). But not only do you have TWICE as many people assaulted in your country. You're ranked as having the THIRD HIGHEST NUMBER OF ASSAULT VICTIMS IN THE WORLD!

ASSAULTS (per capita) WORLD RANKING: Stats rounded
#6 US @ 7.569/1000 persons
#8 UK @ 7.460/1000 persons
#10 AU @ 7.025/ 1000 persons

That sure does not look like out right gun bans work very well to me.....
 
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Sheldon

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Battle Creek Mi.
Sheldon, you do realize those stats don't help your case, right?
What I realize is that their so called gun laws basically show no significant statistical difference of less than a percentile in areas such as murder, and
Their assault cases are significantly higher for a so called peacefully co existence in assaults and murder per capata...

That these are old (2005) numbers that predate several states becoming shall issue.

That every state that has become shall issue has shown significant decreases in assault, robbery, murder, and all violent crimes.... AKA ours is going down and not up....

That our high crime areas are those that prohibit guns and CCW, which significantly add to our crime statastics...

That if gun control actually worked their rank would be a whole lot better than it is, as would the other countries that forbid gun ownership by private citiznes...

That gun control makes it safer for the citizens is a Fallacy forwarded by Soros, the UN, and governments that want subjects and not citizens.

We are not afraid to actually show our true crime rates. Had I wanted to just show how bad theirs were I would not have posted ours, which are steadily going down according to a number of studies by various Universities, local, state and federal agency's, and not up like it is in many other countries...

"More gun's, less crime" is not just a book title, it's a fact....
 
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