TAG crash

Status
Not open for further replies.

Hosko

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
123
Location
Narrabri
Aircraft
RU-X8 Rotor Ute
Total Flight Time
1000
Tyger;n1142096 said:
Wow, how tall would a working combine even be? Twenty feet?
The description of the incident was the pilot was performing a low level pass on the right hand side of the combine & to bank around in front of the cab , the blades made contact with the reel on the comb 😔.
 

Hosko

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
123
Location
Narrabri
Aircraft
RU-X8 Rotor Ute
Total Flight Time
1000
GyrOZprey;n1142040 said:
Anyone who wants to find out ...the REAL FACTS as known to date ...can contact me! .... the blatant ignorant misrepresentation being tossed around in this thread just make me puke!:rant:

Anyone who flies on commercial air craft with Titanium components from Boeing,Airbus,RollsRoyce engines ... is flying happily, safely on THE SAME TITANIUM from the SAME factory ...as TAG Aviation gyros are using! ...the worlds premier titanium factory IS located IN CHINA ... TAG uses the BEST QUALITY!

The TAG gyros have COMPONENTS MADE IN CHINA ...carefully selected & sourced! .....THE GYROS ( & KITS )ARE MADE IN AUSTRALIA ...BY AUSTRALIANS!

There is a video of the stress testing in design stages of those original fold mast plates ...showing what extreme forces ( to5G & better) ... the structure could handle .... I await the manufacturer to send it to SHOW ...you ignoramuses!

A set of the NEW upgraded plates were sent in DECEMBER TO ALL customer's with fold -mast option gyros ... so they could return to flight without waiting for the lengthy ASRA investigation process to run its course ...to lift the SD! (on the original plates)....... A set of these heavier plates have now been sent to a testing facility to stress test to see what extreme forces it takes to break them!

Both accident gyro's had the original plates fitted!

ASRA investigators noted in BOTH Orange & WA accidents that the rotor systems were put into "EXTREME FORCES" (WAAAAY beyond design limits!)...AKA likely "went negative" & high speed rotor flap ....the "explosion sound" ...observed by a witness to the WA accident ...was the rotor-bark of a HS FLAP ...when going neg-G!!!!

Weather conditions ..... reported by police & observers.... severely gusty ... approaching storm front ,
( imagine a scenario .....hurrying to get back to home airport, scared pilot who had lost confidence - up front ...getting beaten about the sky ... instead of slowing to safe speed for flying in gusty conditions ... may have gunned the 135-147HP modified 912 to hurry home! ... & get hit by a BIG gust of wind! ????!)

The new upgrade heavier mast plates ... still sitting in the hangar ... NOT installed! :der:ADM ...flying a gyro configuration that had an ASRA safety directive still in force!

We are all sick at the tragic loss of lives in these two accidents .....there are many factors being examined ...many of these involve pilot ADM-type & weather/wind conditions factors!


DO NOT SPECULATE ABOUT THE DESIGN ....OR MATERIALS ...when you know "JACK-$HIT"!!!!!

This uninformed armchair
quarterbacking is RIDICULOUS & harmful to ALL of us! ...the gyro community has show how wonderfully supportive they can be with love & supportive condolences to the hurting survivors of our aviation tragedies ...we ALL have questions ...that can ONLY be answered in time ...through the PROPER INVESTIGATIVE CHANNELS ...LET ASRA DO THEIR JOB ... & we will all be better off...& eventually have accurate answers!

:rip::censored::whip: ... carry on your "meaningless pontification's of a poor fool strutting & fretting his hour upon the stage ! ...& then is heard NO MORE!!!"(with apologies to Shakespeare!) .....I'm OUT of here! :sorry::painkiller::closed_2:
Wrong ! Fitting the upgraded mast plates to a folding mast TE gyro doesn't lift SD grounding those machines.
An extremely irresponsible statement.
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
1,636
Location
Wyoming
Aircraft
Cessna 152, 172, 172RG, 177, 206 -- Piper 180 -- RV-7A -- Calidus -- RAF2000 -- Sport Copter II and
Total Flight Time
1000+
'I’ve tried to be fair and diplomatic in my posts here. I am not your enemy. Let's please work together on this.”
EdL, I was speaking to Chris (who had called me an "ignoramus" and "fool", etc.). I think I've been fair to her and TAG.

With Abid, I responded to his initial snarkyness with a "glass houses" caveat. He ignored that, and proceeded to off-gas about me.
You might include him in your admonishment for courtesy.


You may consider rethinking how you do that.
Just a friendly, fair, and diplomatic suggestion. Totally up to you.
Roger, wilco.

The middle part did actually have some relevant opinions.
Thanks for that Ed.

_______
I'd like folks not to imagine that I'm maligning 2-piece masts in general. How could I? I fly a folding mast gyro (Sport Copter upgraded RAF).
I'm not even maligning any particular material here. The TAG 2-piece mast issue seems a design flaw.
Thicker straps aren't the solution with those pairs of "tear-on-the-dotted-line" holes.



_______
Hosko, it grieves me to hear of so many Australian gyro crashes. You guys seem to fly them hard and low. Be careful!

Wrong ! Fitting the upgraded mast plates to a folding mast TE gyro doesn't lift SD grounding those machines.
An extremely irresponsible statement.
I'd have to concur.

I own a TE with the standard one piece mast & will continue to fly it as I have confidence in it's integrity.
As with all gyro masts, we should regularly and carefully inspect them for any cracking.
Safe flying,

Kolibri
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,418
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
EdL;n1142094 said:
“'I’ve tried to be fair and diplomatic in my posts here. I am not your enemy. Let's please work together on this.”

Yet look at how your post starts, esp regarding Abid. And commenting on Chris’ “near-hysterical denunciation of fellow gyro pilots” provides the other layer of the Oreo.

....
/Ed
Ahh ... I don't worry about it Edl. There are a handful of folks in aviation circles who have got a problem with me and to a point it seems like its personal to them. I can count them on fingers of one hand. That is not a bad record in 14 years of being in manufacturing and selling light aircraft business. Some don't like me because I was born somewhere else and because my born religion is something that some have problem with. Not that I am very religious at all but religion is an accident of geography in my opinion. I don't really care about it.
As it happens, these Pakistani American sister girl singers sum up my feelings about the subject. They say it better than I do. Kolibri and like can enjoy it sung to them
https://youtu.be/76jARSWqcdM
 

EdL

Comm Rotor Gyro, ASEL
Joined
Feb 11, 2018
Messages
144
Location
Lakeway, TX
Aircraft
Magni M-16, Piper Warrior
Total Flight Time
1300
LOL. Abid, I must say I enjoyed the heck out of meeting you and seeing your operation. You have my utmost respect and I sincerely felt bad not buying an AR-1 at a “personal level” - I’m quite sure it’s an excellent machine. I think you know I struggled for a good bit choosing between your AR-1 and the Magni and my familiarity with the Magni won out for me, with no disrespect for you or your aircraft intended.

/Ed
 

Doug Riley

Platinum Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2004
Messages
6,399
Was the stress-testing done in a fatigue tester, or did it use steady-state loading? In either case, were all the loads considered? Things like the torsional loading of prerotation, possible hard flapping loads from poor takeoff technique and 2/rev loads attributable to the semi-rigid rotor?

Titanium, thankfully, has a more or less fixed endurance (fatigue) limit, as does steel. But this limit is roughly half of its one-time strength A part that passes a steady-load test can break at lower loads if they take the form of vibrations.

Compare the typical bolted Erector-set-style folding or two-piece masts on amateur-designed gyros with the curvaceous, tapered and bonded "strap packs" on professionally-designed helo rotorblades. The latter are configured to avoid the stress concentrations that simply are inherent in lap joints held together with big bolts through drilled holes.
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
1,636
Location
Wyoming
Aircraft
Cessna 152, 172, 172RG, 177, 206 -- Piper 180 -- RV-7A -- Calidus -- RAF2000 -- Sport Copter II and
Total Flight Time
1000+
Some don't like me because I was born somewhere else and because my born religion is something that some have problem with.
What does that have to do with a gyro's design, engineering, or materials?

If somebody produces a gyro kit and publicly pontificates about gyro flying, I expect them to be a rated gyro pilot who does not diss the license as a mere "
piece of paper", that's all.
Call me old-fashioned. (Somebody else called Abid out on this in the forum a few years back. I was very surprised to learn of it last year, for I had presumed he was a gyro pilot.)


___________
Compare the typical bolted Erector-set-style folding or two-piece masts on amateur-designed gyros with the curvaceous, tapered and bonded "strap packs" on professionally-designed helo rotorblades. The latter are configured to avoid the stress concentrations that simply are inherent in lap joints held together with big bolts through drilled holes.
"Erector-set" -- what an apt metaphor, Doug.
I can't imagine what TAG thought they were doing with those strap bolt holes.

Regards,
Kolibri
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
1,636
Location
Wyoming
Aircraft
Cessna 152, 172, 172RG, 177, 206 -- Piper 180 -- RV-7A -- Calidus -- RAF2000 -- Sport Copter II and
Total Flight Time
1000+
Some don't like me because I was born somewhere else and because my born religion is something that some have problem with.
What does that have to do with a gyro's design, engineering, or materials?

If somebody produces a gyro kit and publicly pontificates about gyro flying, I expect them to be a rated gyro pilot who does not diss the license as a mere "
piece of paper", that's all.
Call me old-fashioned. (Somebody else called Abid out on this in the forum a few years back. I was very surprised to learn of it last year, for I had presumed he was a gyro pilot.)


___________
Compare the typical bolted Erector-set-style folding or two-piece masts on amateur-designed gyros with the curvaceous, tapered and bonded "strap packs" on professionally-designed helo rotorblades. The latter are configured to avoid the stress concentrations that simply are inherent in lap joints held together with big bolts through drilled holes.
"Erector-set" -- what an apt metaphor, Doug.
I can't imagine what TAG thought they were doing with those strap bolt holes.

Regards,
Kolibri
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
1,636
Location
Wyoming
Aircraft
Cessna 152, 172, 172RG, 177, 206 -- Piper 180 -- RV-7A -- Calidus -- RAF2000 -- Sport Copter II and
Total Flight Time
1000+
Some don't like me because I was born somewhere else and because my born religion is something that some have problem with.
fara, what does that have to do with a gyro's design, engineering, or materials?

If somebody produces a gyro kit and publicly pontificates about gyro flying, I expect them to be a rated gyro pilot who does not diss the license as a mere "
piece of paper", that's all.
Call me old-fashioned.

(Somebody else called you out on this in the forum a few years back. I was very surprised to learn of it last year, for I had naturally presumed you were a gyro pilot.)


___________
Compare the typical bolted Erector-set-style folding or two-piece masts on amateur-designed gyros with the curvaceous, tapered and bonded "strap packs" on professionally-designed helo rotorblades. The latter are configured to avoid the stress concentrations that simply are inherent in lap joints held together with big bolts through drilled holes.
"Erector-set" -- what an apt metaphor, Doug.
I can't imagine what TAG thought they were doing with those strap bolt holes.

Regards,
Kolibri
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,418
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
Kolibri;n1142278 said:
fara, what does that have to do with a gyro's design, engineering, or materials?
...
Regards,
Kolibri
Again you think everything I say on every post is about you.
Also, since you still didn't get my memo. I used your name for you to see what I think. Here it is again. Watch it
https://youtu.be/76jARSWqcdM
 

Kolibri

FW and Gyros
Joined
Oct 17, 2014
Messages
1,636
Location
Wyoming
Aircraft
Cessna 152, 172, 172RG, 177, 206 -- Piper 180 -- RV-7A -- Calidus -- RAF2000 -- Sport Copter II and
Total Flight Time
1000+
I don't think that, but you replied to EdL's post in which he had quoted me, so....
Conversely, my posts in this thread (preceding yours) were not about you or your machine.
Can we move on and get back to the subject here? Thanks. :smile: Kolibri
 

JAL

Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
745
Location
Perth
Aircraft
MT03sport/C172
Total Flight Time
250
I quickly went through this thread so if this was mentioned then sorry to repeat it.

There were witnesses that said there was a very loud explosion followed by the gyro plummeting to the ground. The rotors were found 100s feet from the gyro so it seems pretty clear the rotor separated in flight. Also this was the second time this happened with this model gyro. The first time was several months before that also resulted in a fatality. Following the first accident an AD was issued that grounded this model until an engineering fix for the mast was completed.

At the time of this accident the gyro was still subject to the AD was not legally allowed to be flown.

I just cant work out why someone would fly a machine that has known fatal defect that has not been rectified, and take his 18 year old son along as well. I cant believe that he didn't know, I am sure the manufacture would have issued an alert.
 

Hosko

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
123
Location
Narrabri
Aircraft
RU-X8 Rotor Ute
Total Flight Time
1000
On the 30th March ASRA issued another Safety Directive grounding ALL TAG gyroplanes due to a possible fault with the leading edge balance rod .
 

Steve_UK

Active Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
3,682
Location
UK
Aircraft
I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
Looking on the ATSB website today I note that ATSB have published the following short summary that I'd not noticed before


ATSB have logged this fatal accident with Ref 201900624 - they have published a short summary as follows ""During cruise, the blades were observed to detach from the gyrocopter which subsequently collided with terrain. The two occupants were fatally injured and the gyrocopter was destroyed.""
 

Hosko

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
123
Location
Narrabri
Aircraft
RU-X8 Rotor Ute
Total Flight Time
1000
No Title

Attached photo is reportedly from WA crash gyro.
It is usual practice to base a conclusion on fact , unfortunately some choose to make their own conclusion from hearsay.
There is no evidence that the weight rod was ejected in flight.
There were a couple of photos shared elsewhere that showed the ends of blades . One pic shows no damage & the other has been claimed to show damage as it was dragged from ocean . It looks more like seaweed .....the dark piece is not near where the weight rod is & the end cap still in place.
Those 2 pics are the ones I shared to ASRA board members , obviously they have been shared again.
What is needed here is a physics expert explain how the end cap was forced off & the weight rod ejected. The instant the blades have coned up under load the rod would have been locked in . It would have had to been fired out like a rifle bullet to clear the end of the blade before it started to bend back . Even if the rod had got half way out it's tip speed would have been extremely high.
Yes , I understand the centrifugal force would have been high , not sure of the weight of rod , ) certainly not 10lb as suspected on another post ......) , but I will need to see evidence that this is actually what happened. I think we owe it to the deceased to have a factual finding.
 

Attachments

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
16,321
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
I don't know what caused this accident and I am not suggesting I do.

I don't need to be a physics expert to know that more weight makes the rotor spin faster and that substantially increases the centrifugal loads.

In my opinion if the pilot in command chooses to exceed the maximum takeoff weight and something doesn't work out related to his choice it is the fault of the pilot in command.

Pretending it wasn't their fault hurts everyone involved.

I feel choosing to fly a gyroplane that has been grounded by the authorities is poor aviation decision making.

I teach my clients to respect the limitations in the POH.

If they won't respect the limitations in the POH I suggest they find a different hobby that is more forgiving.
 
Last edited:

loftus

Active Member
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
1,000
Location
Ponce Inlet, Florida
Aircraft
Aircam
Total Flight Time
500 hours
Hosko;n1144306 said:
These are my 2 photos of blades from 9 NEWS.
One of the reports I heard was that the blades were virtually unmarked & looked airworthy.
Looking at these pictures it appears that the end caps were essentially intact with weight rods in place - am I correct in this assessment Hosko? The photo of the blade end in cross section you posted is of a blade purposely cut correct, or is it a blade end with the cap removed. If it is blade end with the cap removed, was the blade found like this? Just trying to understand what I am seeing.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top