student test pilot

BEN S

Active Member
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Nov 15, 2007
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2,277
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YUMA,AZ
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Sportcopter Vortex "light"
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Vance, you once mentioned to me that you envied my ability to speak my mind unencumbered by the social stigmas of being polite.
So here goes. After Dougs incident I started to notice how the board treated people like automan or gerg when they lambasted a newbie for aspiring to stupidity. They get into arguments which lead to banning. We have precious few people left who will call a.spade a spade with little fear of repercussions. So let it be me. I am very well equipped to take the heat for being the surley voice of reason.
It's not about saying "told you so" but rather pointing out that others DIDN'T "Tell you so". We met a guy once who had wrecked three machines and still wouldn't get training....what do you do? Tell him how to get airborne? Or tell him "give it up"? Stupid is as stupid does.....
Our school motto " Initial sucess or total failure" requires getting all the knowledge needed BEFOREHAND. Flying a gyro is very similar and sometimes none of that helps and you end up just losing a friend and never really knowing why.
So I say, "don't hand him a loaded revolver"
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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15,729
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Nipomo,California
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Givens Predator
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I am sorry if your felt insulted Kelly.

I am sorry if your felt insulted Kelly.

Thanks Vance.

Sometimes it's easy to say things without knowing the whole picture. Kelly has been balancing on his VW gyro and totally worn out at least one set of tires doing it. He has flown other aircraft and can fly mine well. He does crow hops well and did ask me about his problem.

I said if all the rigging was connected an blades were on right then without testing it myself I was not sure what was happening so he could ask all of you who might know for ideas.

He is not one to go out and try to do something stupid. But he probably came across as being in a hurry. He has been learning and careful for two years now that I have known him.

So if you could stop with the insults and try to honestly give some quality ideas to set him on the right path to find a solution it would be good for everyone.
I did not intend to insult you Kelly.


Hello Desmon,

I did not intend to insult Kelly.

I feel that a gyroplane that drifts in the opposite direction the cyclic is moved while balancing on the mains may be difficult to fly. I have not flown a gyroplane that responds in this way.

I feel that a person that is balancing on the mains should be ready to fly because it often turns into a flight.

The recent tip over of the Dominator in Texas is a good example of that. He did not intend to fly but once he inadvertently became airborne decided to fly the pattern without sufficient skill and had an inelegant landing. He is not the first and likely will not be the last.

Thank you, Vance
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Nipomo,California
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I enjoy your style a lot and consider you a friend Ben.

I enjoy your style a lot and consider you a friend Ben.

I am polite because that has worked well for me; not because I can’t take the heat.

For some; better judgment comes from expanded knowledge.

For others it enhances their ability to get into trouble.

I began by imagining I am writing to someone who has judgment that may be limited by a lack of information.

I try to find out what they are actually asking and the extent of their knowledge.

I don’t know anyone who wants to wreck their machine so I imagine if they are making poor aviation decisions it is from a lack of knowledge.

In this case I have no answers other than a gyroplane that responds in this way may be difficult to fly so my experience can’t help Kelly.

I have no answer for “many people have done exactly this and aren’t dead” because there are many times in my life when I have said the same thing.

I try to help people quantify the risks and help people to understand the application risk management.

I only know how to be me Ben.

Thank you, Vance
 

Texasautogyro

Gyro Master Instructor
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1,751
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Tomball Texas
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AutoGyro MTO Sport/Cessna 172
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Vance I know you were not insulting me and agree with you. Things can happen just as you said.

I am saying this more to get some good builders advise for him to see what might be wrong before things happen.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Nipomo,California
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I misunderstood your post Desmon.

I misunderstood your post Desmon.

I thought you were writing that Kelly felt I had insulted him.

My mistake; I stand corrected.

I too feel that some of the more experienced builders may be able to help Kelly.

I would like to see a horizontal stabilizer with some more volume on Kelly’s machine.

I feel particularly for a low time pilot; pitch stability has value.

In my opinion Kelly’s efforts at getting near centerline thrust will be enhanced by a larger horizontal stabilizer mounted further back.

Thank you, Vance
 

groundhog

Senior Member
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Aug 22, 2006
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Location
midland,on,ca
Kelly mentions not having completed a hang test . Many threads have explained why this and a larger horizontal stabilizer are critical components . I expect the relation between his mains , center of mass And his teeter bolt hold the answer.
 

groundhog

Senior Member
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Aug 22, 2006
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midland,on,ca
Might I also say that kelly was being a good student and pilot by seeking clarification on divergent results and too many jumped all over him. He is getting instruction and obviously proceeding with caution and what happens?
 

JRB549

J.R. Brown
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Elkhart, IN
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I drive a Tractor and trailer for a living. I looked for the best school I could find and hired in with a company that had the best training around. I spent 10 hour a day for two weeks in Dallas, Tx, then on the road for 35 days with a trainer covering all 5 regions of the US and a min of 8500 miles and having to come down 5 moutain ranges with a grade of atleast 6%.
Then I went to Greenbay, WI to start my final 3 weeks of the best training I had to undergo, it was the hardest and most intense. It invovled watching too many real video's of real accidents of real people dying behind the wheel of tractor- trailers.
My last day and I'm to be issued my truck and be on my own, when the teacher says I have one more video for you to watch, I asked "does anybody get killed ?" he said yes, Why? I told him that if I had to see one more video of people dying I'd give it up, I didnt want to do this for a living. His reply was that they wanted the "pucker" factor to never go away, it will keep you alive.

Now I say all this because of the "pucker factor" was also drilled into me during my GYRO training years before and it seems that too many newbies dont have it.

Either I've been a big sissy buring any training where my life is on the line, to get it right or the gyroworld has made it look way to easy to get behind the seat without the caution needed for getting killed or hurt for life. O.K. I'm done
 

JRB549

J.R. Brown
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You didnt get to ask "why anything" either you listened and learned or you got fired. My last class started with 49 adults and finished with 19, I watch grown men loose it because you were told once to do something and if you didint get it at this stage you got fired, It was'nt a public forum. Why do you think so many are so critical here when it comes to either not heeding what is being said or just doing their on thing? In this case, doing a manuver that can KILL, hurt, or at best just tear up a plane. THIS SPORT DOES NOT NEED ANYMORE ACCIDENTS! Bad enough when it's a brianfart but to ask for it is insane. So yea, if it keeps someone alive, I'll be known as a jumper.
 

Blue Chips

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Ohio
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There is no excuse for jumping, could be the jumpers should learn a little diplomacy, this forum is ALSO to promote, not yell and criticize till someone leaves, how much good will or can be done then.
There is a lot of that on this forum, does no good and is absolutely not necessary when the same cautions and dangers could be stated with out making the person feel attacked. I see several here seem to be real proud on "telling it like it is", If I were Kelly it's a big doubt I'd be back.

Ken
 

khallups

Newbie
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May 11, 2010
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92
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Elk City, Okla.
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Luscumb, champ
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I have about 50hrs. in a Luscumb, and 40 hrs in a Champ, all tail draggers.
hang test

hang test

Kelly mentions not having completed a hang test . Many threads have explained why this and a larger horizontal stabilizer are critical components . I expect the relation between his mains , center of mass And his teeter bolt hold the answer.
I found the hang test paper work that I did after I changed the fuel tanks and replaced with seat tank. I just forgot that I did do a hang test after. The following results are the same as before.

I just completed another hang test on the KB-2 with the following results. The stick is locked in neutral position.

Hanging empty the mast is 6 degrees back and the keel is 4 degrees forward.

Hanging with pilot, the mast is 3 degrees forward and the keel is 13 degrees forward.

I believe these results are well within the limits.
 

khallups

Newbie
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Elk City, Okla.
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Luscumb, champ
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I have about 50hrs. in a Luscumb, and 40 hrs in a Champ, all tail draggers.
There is no excuse for jumping, could be the jumpers should learn a little diplomacy, this forum is ALSO to promote, not yell and criticize till someone leaves, how much good will or can be done then.
There is a lot of that on this forum, does no good and is absolutely not necessary when the same cautions and dangers could be stated with out making the person feel attacked. I see several here seem to be real proud on "telling it like it is", If I were Kelly it's a big doubt I'd be back.

Ken
Thanks Blue Chip for your comment.

I fully agree with you. Other people I have talked with off the forum only read the forum and are won't post anything for fear of being Criticized. Including myself. But with that said, I want to learn and will continue to learn as much as I can even with the remarks. Living out here in Western Okla, I don't have the opertunity to go to gyro clubs or even talk in person with expierenced gyro people.
I do wish this forum was more newby friendly.

Vance,
I was not insulted by you. I took it as constructive. Thanks.
 

PW_Plack

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If harsh criticism takes place in public, it may be more about the ego gratification of the critic than it is about the safety of the person criticized.
 

All_In

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I learned long ago I would rather be thought a fool than remain one! At 17 I found myself selling what I knew and needed to learn more to sell more.

It pays with rapid learning and can end with almost being expert, not asking... well then I remain a fool for a longer period of time, perhaps forever?

Personally I like to put my ideas out for criticism under the toughest crucible of expert fire I can get, when they point out problems or stupid human tricks I've made then I can find a solution. It almost always helps and never hurts anything buy my pride and in my case that really cannot hurt either.
So it's all good, jump on in conversation... little John/ALL In will protect you?
 

RotoPlane

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Gilboa, Ohio USA
There is no excuse for jumping, could be the jumpers should learn a little diplomacy, this forum is ALSO to promote, not yell and criticize till someone leaves, how much good will or can be done then.
There is a lot of that on this forum, does no good and is absolutely not necessary when the same cautions and dangers could be stated with out making the person feel attacked. I see several here seem to be real proud on "telling it like it is", If I were Kelly it's a big doubt I'd be back.

Ken
I agree Ken. To me, jumpers are nothing more than bullies.....and the reason is what Paul wrote so well...."If harsh criticism takes place in public, it may be more about the ego gratification of the critic than it is about the safety of the person criticized."

These type of nasty posts to Kelly is the reason I decided months ago not to post any more gyro related questions to this forum, unless I'm relatively sure the question is benign. Just not worth the hassle......
 

BEN S

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Nov 15, 2007
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Location
YUMA,AZ
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Sportcopter Vortex "light"
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Stroking ones ego or concern for a fellow man?

Stroking ones ego or concern for a fellow man?

I thought the title would get someones attention.
Yes, I am a student pilot and trying to do my own test flights with a VW powered KB-2.

I am not sure why it yaws opposite. Any thoughts?

I really like your explanation. In fact, I changed the fuel tanks on the side and put on a seat tank. I also raised the seat to make it nearly center line thrust. I didn't do a hang test after these modifications like I should have. I will try to do one today or tomarrow and let you know what it comes out at.[/QUOTE]

These are HIS words, not mine. Sorry if you guys think I'm somehow worried how I will look to you on a forum. I'm not. Get over it.
If you are a newbie and write things like this expect us to take you at your word. I don't wish to see another gyro pilot die. Pretty simple really, take this stuff seriously or it will bite you.

Since Doug's accident at Christmas, I have taken further training by flying to Oregon to get it. I have sold my business, said good by to my business partner, sold my truck, bought a new truck and trailer and moved into a position running sites for the US Govt....uprooted my family and started home schooling a 16 year old....since Christmas!
You think seeing your buddy die right in front of you will have this profound an effect on you? I hope you soothsayers never have to find out.

If you are a noob and I come across as harsh? And you want to go cry about it?
Tough ****!
Maybe a little tough love is exactly what some people NEED.
 

BEN S

Active Member
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YUMA,AZ
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Paul, Thomas....Really?
You guys know me...personally.....Do I seem like the type?
 

JRB549

J.R. Brown
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Elkhart, IN
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Working on a Two seater
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Ya know Ben, I feel the same way as you. It's sorta like he said "I'm playin with fire guys and I want you all to tell me how NOT to get burnt". Im amazed at those that think we should come at it as if this is everyday exceptable behavior..."he's goin in the right direction, give him a break, atleast he's tryin to do it right ....blaa blaa blaa.
 
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