student test pilot

bryancobb

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Flying

Flying

Just as a note to your statment.."The lateral component of those forces BANK and TURN the aircraft, if in flight." You are flying if your balancing on the mains...slow but flying none the less. And as others have said, if you havnt had your plane test flown yet....Stop. All info here is ment to HELP from everyone. You only get one chance to get it wrong. Lets do it right.
"Flying" in my understanding, requires being airborne and not touching the ground. If a gyro with two wheels on the ground, carrying 1% to 100% of the aircraft's weight is flying, then I suppose a NASCAR car is "Flying."

Neither can be banked and turned by aerodynamic forces when left and right wheels are touching terra firma.
 

Alan_Cheatham

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Since lateral cyclic has a horizontal component of thrust, and since this lateral thrust is acting AT A POINT aft of the tire-to-runway contact point, it pushes the nose in the direction OPPOSITE the direction the disc tilts.

How's that? Sound plausible?
This is the reason right here.

Taildragger tractors experience the exact same thing but even more pronounced.

.
 

bryancobb

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He Said

He Said

...Why are you moving the stick left and right while wheel-balancing?...

I think he said his CFI had him do it as another way to learn how the rotor acts on the aircraft.
 

Vance

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Thank for your opinion Bryan.

Thank for your opinion Bryan.

Vance,

I will stoop to your level and I don't know why. You don't understand $h1+ from shine-o-la about flying machines or physics or any science that applies to all flying machines. You have experience and you base your understanding only on your experiences. You may not read much and if you do you fail to absorb the material and understand it's presentation.

You lock onto one word or phrase that is said or written and get all disoriented and confused. You bring up your vivid prejudices to disbelieve what is fact. I'm sorry I even spent the time to type this but the vast majority of people on this forum know I have a very thorough understanding of physics.

My Ross-Perot style of presenting it gives you fits and I don't know why?

Any person who knows "bumpkus" about flying machines, knows that the drag of the spinning rotor disk, is applying a horizontal aft force at the mid point of the teter bolt. The propeller is applying a thrust force that is horizontal and forward. This force is BELOW the teter hinge. Those two forces create a MOMENT about the aircraft CG. That, my friend is what picks the front wheel up.

The pilot can control the magnitude of the horizontal drag force vector that is pulling rearward at the mid point of the teter bolt, by varying fore/aft cyclic.

The trick to not accidentally lifting off, is to have throttle set to less than required for Minimum Controllable Airspeed, and HOPE a gust of wind don't come into the disc from the front.

Can you understand or do your prejucices against ME slam the door to your understanding before you read my words. :)
Step away from the mirror Bryan.

I am not your friend.

Regards, Vance
 

Texasautogyro

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Well one thing is for sure. Balancing on the mains tells you many things one for sure if it does not feel right you have no business trying to be a test pilot no matter what me or any CFI says.


That said when we balanced in the MTO we discussed flying it to the end. You have worn off the tires balancing in one of your gyros this is good but. You need to bring the wrong trimmed one to someone who knows and is skilled to Check it.

Then do transition with me or someone to supervise the first flights to make sure you have It right.

Having a discussion that you are close is not quite the same as a solo sign off supervised.
 

JRB549

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Well said Desmond!

Mr. Bryan, you may have all the ratings in the world to put behind your name and all the book smarts ya want and that's great but if you think that you are not flying a GYRO while balancing on the mains you are sadly mistaken...course I only have student rating on my ticket but I like it that way......
 

Timchick

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If you've made modifications to your gyro, #1 Do a hang test, #2 have someone experienced check it out and fly it first.
 

bryancobb

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Yep

Yep

...if you think that you are not flying a GYRO while balancing on the mains you are sadly mistaken...
It's just like being very light on the skids in a helicopter before lifting off to a hover.

It's a precarious time when the slightest error by the pilot can have a terrible outcome. The rotor is at (an elevated) RPM, and (may be) supporting almost all of the aircraft weight. The cyclic has control of the machine. It requires a high degree of pilot competence. But to me, you are not flying ...yet.
 
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NoWingsAttached

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Hope you got the message, but just in case:

1. nobody steers a gyro on the ground with the cyclic.

2. Give the gyro keys to your wife/GF/significant other until you have been signed off to solo by a CFI

When it comes time to fly it, your VW powered gyro is going to be heavy and underpowered, so you are going to need to be mindful of MANY issues to come. Hope you realize that this is not the best combination for a safe gyrocopter that is easy to fly.
 

Vance

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The similarity eludes me.

The similarity eludes me.

It's just like being very light on the skids in a helicopter before lifting off to a hover.

It's a precarious time when the slightest error by the pilot can have a terrible outcome. The rotor is at RPM, and is supporting almost all of the aircraft weight. The cyclic has control of the machine. It requires a high degree of pilot competence. But to me, you are not flying ...yet.
I post this to help people who have not flown both a helicopter and a gyroplane understand that they are not the same. I apologize for getting off the thread track.

In my experience the rotor of a gyroplane is not up to flight rpm when balancing on the mains and the rotor may be supporting as little as 20% of the weight of the gyroplane.

I continue to accelerate the rotor and build air speed as I move the cyclic forward to stay balanced on the mains. At some combination of rotor rpm and indicated air speed the gyroplane will lift off.

I have found take off can be prevented in a gyroplane by limiting the air speed or limiting the thrust.

I can also hold the nose down with the cyclic in order to lift off at higher indicated air speed.

In most gyroplanes I have flown the fixed pitch rotor is powered by the wind and in a helicopter the rotor is powered by the engine and it has a collective control.

I was taught that lift off in a helicopter is initiated with the collective and the throttle, not the cyclic.

In my experience balancing on the mains is nothing like getting light on the skids with a helicopter.

I feel a gyroplane is very different to fly than a helicopter.

I agree the chance of a dynamic rollover is there with both aircraft when there is an interface with the ground.

I was taught that in a gyroplane if the rotor is producing lift the flight has begun and the flight is not over until the rotor has stopped producing lift.

Some may define flight differently.

Thank you, Vance
 

Vance

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A post from nobody!

A post from nobody!

Hope you got the message, but just in case:

1. nobody steers a gyro on the ground with the cyclic. QUOTE]

I was taught to manage my ground track in a gyroplane with a combination of cyclic and rudder.

Perhaps you should try that Greg.

Thank you, Vance
 

birdy

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If on the ground it tries to SLIDE the aircraft across the surface and if the tires stop it from doing that, it may roll over.
Hell, i hope this dont upset you too much Brian, but your rite on the money. ;)

If your mains are still on the ground, and you stick rite, theres a change in the direction of the force of the disc.
This force [ to the rite] is behind the drag of the wheels, so the result is the disc pulls the back of the machine rite, and the nose goes left.
Never flown a gyro yet that wont do this.
The ONLY time the stick should be off center laterally while still in contact with the ground is to compensate for any xwind.
Use only the rudder for yaw.

And no, the machine aint flyn till the rotor has 100% of the weight.
Only the rotors are flyn when balancing on the mains.
 

bryancobb

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Speculation

Speculation

...1. nobody steers a gyro on the ground with the cyclic...
He didn't say that he was trying to steer it that way. He implied that his instructor had taught him that there may be yaw associated with cyclic when balancing on the mains, and to try it himself to see how much, if any, happens on any particular aircraft.

It seems to me that a gyro pilot needs to know how pronounced this effect is on their ship, so that they get accustomed to adding opposite rudder any time when wind tries to blow them off the centerline when balancing on the mains. I may be wrong but I would guess that cyclic toward the wind gust would be required? It looks like to me that if a wind gust gets UNDER the rotor disc, it may flip you over? Am I wrong. Sort-of like a fixed wing pilot positions ailerons and elevator during taxi so wind won't flip them over.

So I understand, hypothetically, on this gyro, balancing on the mains, if a gust comes 90 deg from the left side, what happens? It appears to me the gust would cause the nose to go left since the vertical fin and center of the rotor are aft of the main tire contact points. Am I right?

What SHOULD be the pilot's FIRST action? Left cyclic? or Right rudder? It seems to me there left cyclic would lessen the possibility of the gust getting under and flipping the gyro over to the right, AND bring the nose to the right and back to the centerline? It seems to me Left rudder would not help keep that from happening but it would put you back on the centerline? Am I right?
 

bryancobb

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ONLY Simiarity

ONLY Simiarity

...In my experience balancing on the mains is nothing like getting light on the skids with a helicopter...
Vance, I agree 100% with ALL of your statements ...except...

IN CONTEXT, the only similarities I was illustrating when I said this...were:

*They are both in a precarious phase of operation that requires attention, concentration, and pilot skill to avoid balling the aircraft up on the ground.

* Neither of them are yet "Flying" because the aircraft has not left the ground nor is the rotor supporting 100% of the aircraft weight.

Vance. THAT'S WHERE THE SIMILARITIES END!
 

Steve McGowan

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Ok, ill do it......
Are you crazy??? You claim to have hours with an instructor whom you claim says your "ready"...Why don't youask HIM what he thinks??
Could it be you didn't want him know what your up to?
I believe in the "Big boy pants" theory of evoloution, but why on earth would you progress the way you make it seem like you are?
This forum has seen FAR to many experienced, well trained pilots die in preventable accidents to want to partake in seeing yet another blunder.
finish your training.have a pro look over your rig.understand what you are doing BEFORE doing it. Don't die learning.
Whiskey Two Sixer....OUT!
Oh Ben,,

It's THE DRIVE UP WINDOW AT McDONALDS.....

SEND FLOWERS.......
 

Vance

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Some basic concepts.

Some basic concepts.

He didn't say that he was trying to steer it that way. He implied that his instructor had taught him that there may be yaw associated with cyclic when balancing on the mains, and to try it himself to see how much, if any, happens on any particular aircraft.

It seems to me that a gyro pilot needs to know how pronounced this effect is on their ship, so that they get accustomed to adding opposite rudder any time when wind tries to blow them off the centerline when balancing on the mains. I may be wrong but I would guess that cyclic toward the wind gust would be required? It looks like to me that if a wind gust gets UNDER the rotor disc, it may flip you over? Am I wrong. Sort-of like a fixed wing pilot positions ailerons and elevator during taxi so wind won't flip them over.

So I understand, hypothetically, on this gyro, balancing on the mains, if a gust comes 90 deg from the left side, what happens? It appears to me the gust would cause the nose to go left since the vertical fin and center of the rotor are aft of the main tire contact points. Am I right?

What SHOULD be the pilot's FIRST action? Left cyclic? or Right rudder? It seems to me there left cyclic would lessen the possibility of the gust getting under and flipping the gyro over to the right, AND bring the nose to the right and back to the centerline? It seems to me Left rudder would not help keep that from happening but it would put you back on the centerline? Am I right?
In my opinion a low time gyroplane pilot’s first action with a significant cross wind gust should be to stop flying. Many CFIs have wind limits and cross wind component limits in their solo sign off.

I was taught a gyroplane pilot uses the cyclic and ruder in concert when balancing on the mains not either the rudder or the cyclic and not first one and then the other.

In all the gyroplanes I have flown when a significant gust comes from the left I use left cyclic and right rudder in concert because the gyroplane is trying to weathercock into the wind and it is not good to have the tires misaligned with the flight path as I am trying to go from rolling to flying.

In my opinion tires don’t slide across the runway well and significant divergence between what the flight surfaces want to do and the tires want to do is best avoided.

In order to stay balancing on the mains I move the cyclic forward as the indicated air speed and rotor rpm build. In my experience if I don’t the gyroplane may become airborne prematurely.

In my opinion none of this is complicated or counterintuitive and I learned these things very early in my gyroplane training.

I feel having the rotor thrust trying to tip the gyroplane over is best avoided.

The mains on a tricycle landing gear gyroplane are located to get the appropriate percentage of weight on the front wheel.

A gyroplane rotor head is located so that the gyroplane flies at the desired angle and the horizontal stabilizer helps with this.

In my opinion this is a part of why a hang test has value and measuring the weight on each tire is important.

I am sharing my opinion on these simple concepts so Bryan’s speculations do not confuse people trying to learn about gyroplanes.

I feel these concepts have all been explained on this forum many times before.

They are not to be confused with gyroplane instruction because I am not a gyroplane CFI.

Thank you, Vance
 
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BEN S

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Yeah Steve...but this drive in window can get you killed faster than Mickey Dees.
I don't understand the board dynamic of actually trying to ANSWER his question just so he can go forth and "try".
For those of you helping.....if this was a "Russian Roulette" forum
Its almost like you guys are giving advice about bullet selection and arguing about revolver brands....NOT telling him NOT TO DO IT!!!!
This is one cat who enjoys throwing sticks in a hornet nest, look at his first post! Student test pilot my ass.
Bud if you want to off yourself, be my guest, but please leave us alone while doing it. You owe us your anonymity out of politeness and common decency.
 

Vance

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My Approach

My Approach

I can empathies with your concern Ben.

In my experience telling people not to do something is not very effective.

I have found the response is usually something like; “other people have done this very same thing and they are not dead.”

I have found countering this with; “many people have been killed doing this” is not very effective.

I have had better results with people asking questions by helping them understand what they don’t know and the risks involved.

I looked up Kelly’s previous posts and profile and that is how I knew he was taking training from Desmon and had fixed wing experience.

I prefer trying to help rather than just telling people to go away and kill themselves quietly.

Thank you, Vance
 

Texasautogyro

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I can empathies with your concern Ben.

In my experience telling people not to do something is not very effective.

I have found the response is usually something like; “other people have done this very same thing and they are not dead.”

I have found countering this with; “many people have been killed doing this” is not very effective.

I have had better results with people asking questions by helping them understand what they don’t know and the risks involved.

I looked up Kelly’s previous posts and profile and that is how I knew he was taking training from Desmon and had fixed wing experience.

I prefer trying to help rather than just telling people to go away and kill themselves quietly.

Thank you, Vance


Thanks Vance.

Sometimes it's easy to say things without knowing the whole picture. Kelly has been balancing on his VW gyro and totally worn out at least one set of tires doing it. He has flown other aircraft and can fly mine well. He does crow hops well and did ask me about his problem.

I said if all the rigging was connected an blades were on right then without testing it myself I was not sure what was happening so he could ask all of you who might know for ideas.

He is not one to go out and try to do something stupid. But he probably came across as being in a hurry. He has been learning and careful for two years now that I have known him.

So if you could stop with the insults and try to honestly give some quality ideas to set him on the right path to find a solution it would be good for everyone.
 
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