birdy
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- Alice Springs-central Oz.
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- open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
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- 7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
Im liftn this from a highjacked thread, coz i recon it should be.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stability is a design standard at the time of construction. Stability is an engineering trade-off for maneuverability.
So, Ronny ol mate, you wana lock horns ere do you?
Show me the worlds best gyronut in a Magni that can follow me in me ferel, [and im not near the best in any machine] THEN ill listen to your ' headstrong' statements.
One is proper stable, the other is neutraly stable.
2 different designs with 2 different capabilities.
BOTH as safe as the other.
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#32 Yesterday, 10:43 PM
GyroRon
Ican'tbelieveitsnotbutter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Mill South Carolina
Posts: 10,411
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birdy, sorry but your gyro is a single seater and the Magni is a two seater. A single seater will always win over a two seater due to the lighter weight and shorter blades and shorter height of the rotorhead parts.
People believe your one of the worlds best gyro pilots. I agree, I think from watching your videos that your very good. I don't think I am one of the best, but I think I can certainly hang in there with you. I would bet that if I were in a 912 powered, " ultrawhite " dominator single place, that I would be right on your ass no matter what manuver you do..... Problem is were simply too far apart to ever get a chance to prove it to each other.
You fly your gyro for work purposes and fly it many hours a day, every day..... It wouldn't matter if it were extremely stable or unstable, you will get used to flying it and once you get really used to the way it flys, anything else will not fly as good. This is no different from a guy who owns a certain type of motorcycle and rides the bike anywhere and everywhere, putting thousands of miles per month on it.... he could try a different bike out, but would almost certainly not like something or another about the bike because it doesn't feel like the other he normally rides. That is life! I figure this is why your beliefs are so strong that a Stable gyro can't be flown like a unstable one.
And Birdy, one of the reasons for my disagreement with Ken here is that in alot of cases, gyro designs are what they are, for purposes that have to do almost completely with looks, transportation, storage, " sex appeal ", and very little with what it will fly like. Gyros like the RAF 2000 were not designed unstable for the purpose of having more manuverablity..... they were designed for the reasons listed above and as far as stability goes, RAF has always and still does, states that their gyro design as sold stock IS STABLE.... And we know that to be completely false.
I will agree, a Cessna 172 is more stable than a Extra 300. And I will agree that the designers of both planes designed in the level of stabilty they wanted to achieve. The 172 is meant as a easy flying stable plane for training and general flying. The Extra is a aerobatic plane made for wild manuvers and meant for hands on flight at all times. The 172 is meant for stable flight into IFR conditions, the Extra is not.... The list could go on, but needless to say, both planes were very professionally designed and designed as they are for specific purpose and reason. I do not know of a single gyro design that has been designed to be less stable for any purpose. In other words, I don't recall a single gyro designer or manufactor / Kit maker claiming that their gyro was designed for this or that purpose and that is why it is less stable than it's counterparts.
I am not a big helicopter buff, and especially not a helicopter expert at all..... but I can not remember any helicopters that are significantly less stable than other simular helicopters, whether that was by accident, default, or on purpose. Correct me if I am wrong.
__________________
May the Force be with you
Starwars fans... here ya Go! https://youtube.com/watch?v=yH8b5ruc_...elated&search=
My treat.... just beware, not work friendly
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/25625
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/21094/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by GyroRon : Yesterday at 10:52 PM.
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#33 Yesterday, 11:28 PM
barnstorm2
Platinum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 5,936
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birdy,
Ron beat me to the observation that a 2 place gyro flys like a truck compared to even the most heavy dog of a single place.
However, that is apples and oranges comparison and when dealing with newbies we need to keep things apples and apples.
If we take a single place CLT machine that is unstable and pit it against a stable CLT machine the difference in 'manoverability' will be only apparent that the very edges of the envelope and mostly just in how much pressure is needed to swing the stick around.
HOWEVER ( and this is the important point here )
If we have an unstable HTL machine (especially a VERY HTL machine like the RAF or F'ed-AirCommands) against a stable HTL machine things are very different because of the extra work and skill required to keep from doing a PPO.
In this case a large number of pilots trying to keep up with the stable machine will PPO their unstable machine and die. That is a high price to pay for a nearly indistinguishable increase in the ease of stick throw.
Therefore, in an unstable HTL machine you have to do a great deal MORE work to avoid killing yourself and the closer you get to the edge of the envelope the more this work and skill is necessary. Meanwhile the stable gyroplane pilot can put this reduced workload into flying his machine.
Therefore to say "Stability is an engineering trade-off for maneuverability in gyroplanes" is indeed (as Ron stated) an incorrect statement (or at the very best very misleading) because an unstable gyroplane has a reduced safe flight envelope and is therefore LESS MANOUVERABLE.
I think it was said simply and best by Phil "the maneuverability gain by instability is so far against the edge of the flight envelope, you'll likely never see it."
And I would add to that " and if you go there in a HTL gyroplane your likelihood of coming back alive to talk about it is also greatly reduced for the under a thousand-hour pilot."
Birdy, I know what you are saying and I agree with your posts on these topics but in this case you are splitting hairs in an example only relevant to the high-time extremely specific form of flying that you do. Rons statement is absolutely correct in the context of 99.9% of the flying that is done in gyroplanes.
By splitting hairs like this you are making the newbees think (like Ken obviously has) that there is more debate about the physics of gyroplane stability then there is in respect to gyroplane design and that is a disservice to our sport that we can no longer afford to perpetrate.
__________________
"The exhilaration of flying is too keen, the pleasure too great, for it to be neglected as a sport"— Orville Wright
Ban ocean bottom trawling! www.prachapter34.com N234TB
Tim OConnor, Private Pilot Rotorcraft, Ultralight Gyro Pilot.
PRA Member #38872, Chapters Sunstate, 34 & 40, EAA and TSPA
New To Gyros? Read more here:https://www.prachapter34.com/toppage4.htm - https://www.prachapter34.com/libary.htm
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#34 Today, 12:02 AM
Brent Drake
gyro flyer
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: shelbyville, Indiana
Posts: 743
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken, If I read you comment correctly. You said taht the design, and stability issue is up to the FAA. I think I have it right when the FAA has very few people in its organization that has alot of gyroplane knowledge. Thus here we are lucky and have Greg Gremminger. He is writing or has written the proper stability issues an submitted them to the FAA. Thus we here on the forum has the inside track on what stability is and what the FAA will be accepting hopfully in the near future.
Guy's, chime in and let me know if I made any unclear or false statements.
__________________
"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical right-wing minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous Fox-News mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." [email protected]
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#35 Today, 12:33 AM
barnstorm2
Platinum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 5,936
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite correct Brent.
When it comes to the FAA 'Airworthiness Certificate" it does not really mean your Experimental aircraft is 'airworthy'.
If you put the correct placards on it and build 51% of it you can get an airworthiness cert for a BRICK.
The NTSB report on a crashed gyro that was "missing the tail rotor" is another classic example of the lack of gyroplane aerodynamics knowledge inherent in "the system".
.
__________________
"The exhilaration of flying is too keen, the pleasure too great, for it to be neglected as a sport"— Orville Wright
Ban ocean bottom trawling! www.prachapter34.com N234TB
Tim OConnor, Private Pilot Rotorcraft, Ultralight Gyro Pilot.
PRA Member #38872, Chapters Sunstate, 34 & 40, EAA and TSPA
New To Gyros? Read more here:https://www.prachapter34.com/toppage4.htm - https://www.prachapter34.com/libary.htm
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#36 Today, 07:03 AM
Fl90
Gold Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lake Placid, Fl
Posts: 800
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of a lengthy post:
A HS slows the pitch on a gyro, no matter where the thrust line is. So, if you use anything other than the rotor to change direction, the gyro with the HS will be slower than the gyro without, no matter where the thrust line is.
Period.
Phil.
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#37 Today, 07:26 AM
Heron
Platinum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pompano Beach - Florida
Posts: 3,350
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Can the pilot interfere in this "slowness" ?
If yes than it is no, not slower. Just different input.
Heron
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#38 Today, 07:40 AM
GyroRon
Ican'tbelieveitsnotbutter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Mill South Carolina
Posts: 10,411
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fl90
Instead of a lengthy post:
A HS slows the pitch on a gyro, no matter where the thrust line is. So, if you use anything other than the rotor to change direction, the gyro with the HS will be slower than the gyro without, no matter where the thrust line is.
Period.
Phil.
Phil, I will agree with you, but in the case of EVERY gyro I have flown with a horizontal stab, the " speed " the gyro is able to move in the pitch direction has been anything but slow.
My observations of flying gyros with no stab and simular gyros with one.... the horizontal stabilizer allows for a more solid " planted " feel while flying, where the ones without a HS had a loose feel. Both had the same forces and speeds in changing directions as far as I could tell.
I have not yet flown a Magni. I have no doubt that it is what could be called Stable.... But at the same time I do not think that it is fair to say all stable gyros will fly like a Magni. The weight of the rotors, the speed they spin at, and the airfoil used on them.... the height of the teeter towers on the rotorhead, the leverages in the control system, the size of the horizontal stab, and many other factors can make a gyro fly more sluggish than another simular one with one or two or more things I listed above being different. If Birdy flew a Magni and thought it flew like a tank, that is fine, I can take his word on it. But a Dominator Tandem or newer style Aircommand tandem will fly differently and I believe his opinion would be different if he had the chance to fly one.
__________________
May the Force be with you
Starwars fans... here ya Go! https://youtube.com/watch?v=yH8b5ruc_...elated&search=
My treat.... just beware, not work friendly
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/25625
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/21094/
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#39 Today, 07:42 AM
Passin' Thru
Dances with Buzzards
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Naranjito, PR
Posts: 404
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fl90
Instead of a lengthy post:
A HS slows the pitch on a gyro, no matter where the thrust line is. So, if you use anything other than the rotor to change direction, the gyro with the HS will be slower than the gyro without, no matter where the thrust line is.
Period.
Phil.
That sums it up very nicely! I totaly agree.
Heron; No. you're just muddying the water. If you want specifics, I will explan by PM. There are some manouvers I don't feel comfortable discussing on public forum, or as we say "somethings gentlemen do not discuss in public."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stability is a design standard at the time of construction. Stability is an engineering trade-off for maneuverability.
So, Ronny ol mate, you wana lock horns ere do you?
Show me the worlds best gyronut in a Magni that can follow me in me ferel, [and im not near the best in any machine] THEN ill listen to your ' headstrong' statements.
One is proper stable, the other is neutraly stable.
2 different designs with 2 different capabilities.
BOTH as safe as the other.
__________________
Ignorance is bliss, but only till you realise you were.
The reality of experience trumps theoretical beliefs.
Complication will only benefit murphy.
birdy
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#32 Yesterday, 10:43 PM
GyroRon
Ican'tbelieveitsnotbutter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Mill South Carolina
Posts: 10,411
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birdy, sorry but your gyro is a single seater and the Magni is a two seater. A single seater will always win over a two seater due to the lighter weight and shorter blades and shorter height of the rotorhead parts.
People believe your one of the worlds best gyro pilots. I agree, I think from watching your videos that your very good. I don't think I am one of the best, but I think I can certainly hang in there with you. I would bet that if I were in a 912 powered, " ultrawhite " dominator single place, that I would be right on your ass no matter what manuver you do..... Problem is were simply too far apart to ever get a chance to prove it to each other.
You fly your gyro for work purposes and fly it many hours a day, every day..... It wouldn't matter if it were extremely stable or unstable, you will get used to flying it and once you get really used to the way it flys, anything else will not fly as good. This is no different from a guy who owns a certain type of motorcycle and rides the bike anywhere and everywhere, putting thousands of miles per month on it.... he could try a different bike out, but would almost certainly not like something or another about the bike because it doesn't feel like the other he normally rides. That is life! I figure this is why your beliefs are so strong that a Stable gyro can't be flown like a unstable one.
And Birdy, one of the reasons for my disagreement with Ken here is that in alot of cases, gyro designs are what they are, for purposes that have to do almost completely with looks, transportation, storage, " sex appeal ", and very little with what it will fly like. Gyros like the RAF 2000 were not designed unstable for the purpose of having more manuverablity..... they were designed for the reasons listed above and as far as stability goes, RAF has always and still does, states that their gyro design as sold stock IS STABLE.... And we know that to be completely false.
I will agree, a Cessna 172 is more stable than a Extra 300. And I will agree that the designers of both planes designed in the level of stabilty they wanted to achieve. The 172 is meant as a easy flying stable plane for training and general flying. The Extra is a aerobatic plane made for wild manuvers and meant for hands on flight at all times. The 172 is meant for stable flight into IFR conditions, the Extra is not.... The list could go on, but needless to say, both planes were very professionally designed and designed as they are for specific purpose and reason. I do not know of a single gyro design that has been designed to be less stable for any purpose. In other words, I don't recall a single gyro designer or manufactor / Kit maker claiming that their gyro was designed for this or that purpose and that is why it is less stable than it's counterparts.
I am not a big helicopter buff, and especially not a helicopter expert at all..... but I can not remember any helicopters that are significantly less stable than other simular helicopters, whether that was by accident, default, or on purpose. Correct me if I am wrong.
__________________
May the Force be with you
Starwars fans... here ya Go! https://youtube.com/watch?v=yH8b5ruc_...elated&search=
My treat.... just beware, not work friendly
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/25625
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/21094/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by GyroRon : Yesterday at 10:52 PM.
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#33 Yesterday, 11:28 PM
barnstorm2
Platinum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 5,936
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Birdy,
Ron beat me to the observation that a 2 place gyro flys like a truck compared to even the most heavy dog of a single place.
However, that is apples and oranges comparison and when dealing with newbies we need to keep things apples and apples.
If we take a single place CLT machine that is unstable and pit it against a stable CLT machine the difference in 'manoverability' will be only apparent that the very edges of the envelope and mostly just in how much pressure is needed to swing the stick around.
HOWEVER ( and this is the important point here )
If we have an unstable HTL machine (especially a VERY HTL machine like the RAF or F'ed-AirCommands) against a stable HTL machine things are very different because of the extra work and skill required to keep from doing a PPO.
In this case a large number of pilots trying to keep up with the stable machine will PPO their unstable machine and die. That is a high price to pay for a nearly indistinguishable increase in the ease of stick throw.
Therefore, in an unstable HTL machine you have to do a great deal MORE work to avoid killing yourself and the closer you get to the edge of the envelope the more this work and skill is necessary. Meanwhile the stable gyroplane pilot can put this reduced workload into flying his machine.
Therefore to say "Stability is an engineering trade-off for maneuverability in gyroplanes" is indeed (as Ron stated) an incorrect statement (or at the very best very misleading) because an unstable gyroplane has a reduced safe flight envelope and is therefore LESS MANOUVERABLE.
I think it was said simply and best by Phil "the maneuverability gain by instability is so far against the edge of the flight envelope, you'll likely never see it."
And I would add to that " and if you go there in a HTL gyroplane your likelihood of coming back alive to talk about it is also greatly reduced for the under a thousand-hour pilot."
Birdy, I know what you are saying and I agree with your posts on these topics but in this case you are splitting hairs in an example only relevant to the high-time extremely specific form of flying that you do. Rons statement is absolutely correct in the context of 99.9% of the flying that is done in gyroplanes.
By splitting hairs like this you are making the newbees think (like Ken obviously has) that there is more debate about the physics of gyroplane stability then there is in respect to gyroplane design and that is a disservice to our sport that we can no longer afford to perpetrate.
__________________
"The exhilaration of flying is too keen, the pleasure too great, for it to be neglected as a sport"— Orville Wright
Ban ocean bottom trawling! www.prachapter34.com N234TB
Tim OConnor, Private Pilot Rotorcraft, Ultralight Gyro Pilot.
PRA Member #38872, Chapters Sunstate, 34 & 40, EAA and TSPA
New To Gyros? Read more here:https://www.prachapter34.com/toppage4.htm - https://www.prachapter34.com/libary.htm
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#34 Today, 12:02 AM
Brent Drake
gyro flyer
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: shelbyville, Indiana
Posts: 743
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken, If I read you comment correctly. You said taht the design, and stability issue is up to the FAA. I think I have it right when the FAA has very few people in its organization that has alot of gyroplane knowledge. Thus here we are lucky and have Greg Gremminger. He is writing or has written the proper stability issues an submitted them to the FAA. Thus we here on the forum has the inside track on what stability is and what the FAA will be accepting hopfully in the near future.
Guy's, chime in and let me know if I made any unclear or false statements.
__________________
"Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical right-wing minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous Fox-News mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." [email protected]
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#35 Today, 12:33 AM
barnstorm2
Platinum Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Posts: 5,936
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quite correct Brent.
When it comes to the FAA 'Airworthiness Certificate" it does not really mean your Experimental aircraft is 'airworthy'.
If you put the correct placards on it and build 51% of it you can get an airworthiness cert for a BRICK.
The NTSB report on a crashed gyro that was "missing the tail rotor" is another classic example of the lack of gyroplane aerodynamics knowledge inherent in "the system".
.
__________________
"The exhilaration of flying is too keen, the pleasure too great, for it to be neglected as a sport"— Orville Wright
Ban ocean bottom trawling! www.prachapter34.com N234TB
Tim OConnor, Private Pilot Rotorcraft, Ultralight Gyro Pilot.
PRA Member #38872, Chapters Sunstate, 34 & 40, EAA and TSPA
New To Gyros? Read more here:https://www.prachapter34.com/toppage4.htm - https://www.prachapter34.com/libary.htm
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#36 Today, 07:03 AM
Fl90
Gold Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Lake Placid, Fl
Posts: 800
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Instead of a lengthy post:
A HS slows the pitch on a gyro, no matter where the thrust line is. So, if you use anything other than the rotor to change direction, the gyro with the HS will be slower than the gyro without, no matter where the thrust line is.
Period.
Phil.
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#37 Today, 07:26 AM
Heron
Platinum Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pompano Beach - Florida
Posts: 3,350
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can the pilot interfere in this "slowness" ?
If yes than it is no, not slower. Just different input.
Heron
__________________
Moving on! [email protected] (954)840-3869
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#38 Today, 07:40 AM
GyroRon
Ican'tbelieveitsnotbutter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Fort Mill South Carolina
Posts: 10,411
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fl90
Instead of a lengthy post:
A HS slows the pitch on a gyro, no matter where the thrust line is. So, if you use anything other than the rotor to change direction, the gyro with the HS will be slower than the gyro without, no matter where the thrust line is.
Period.
Phil.
Phil, I will agree with you, but in the case of EVERY gyro I have flown with a horizontal stab, the " speed " the gyro is able to move in the pitch direction has been anything but slow.
My observations of flying gyros with no stab and simular gyros with one.... the horizontal stabilizer allows for a more solid " planted " feel while flying, where the ones without a HS had a loose feel. Both had the same forces and speeds in changing directions as far as I could tell.
I have not yet flown a Magni. I have no doubt that it is what could be called Stable.... But at the same time I do not think that it is fair to say all stable gyros will fly like a Magni. The weight of the rotors, the speed they spin at, and the airfoil used on them.... the height of the teeter towers on the rotorhead, the leverages in the control system, the size of the horizontal stab, and many other factors can make a gyro fly more sluggish than another simular one with one or two or more things I listed above being different. If Birdy flew a Magni and thought it flew like a tank, that is fine, I can take his word on it. But a Dominator Tandem or newer style Aircommand tandem will fly differently and I believe his opinion would be different if he had the chance to fly one.
__________________
May the Force be with you
Starwars fans... here ya Go! https://youtube.com/watch?v=yH8b5ruc_...elated&search=
My treat.... just beware, not work friendly
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/25625
https://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/21094/
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#39 Today, 07:42 AM
Passin' Thru
Dances with Buzzards
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Naranjito, PR
Posts: 404
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fl90
Instead of a lengthy post:
A HS slows the pitch on a gyro, no matter where the thrust line is. So, if you use anything other than the rotor to change direction, the gyro with the HS will be slower than the gyro without, no matter where the thrust line is.
Period.
Phil.
That sums it up very nicely! I totaly agree.
Heron; No. you're just muddying the water. If you want specifics, I will explan by PM. There are some manouvers I don't feel comfortable discussing on public forum, or as we say "somethings gentlemen do not discuss in public."
I knew I'd catch flak for the roll in there, having done this late at night without setting the cyclic on a solid surface. I thought since they were both "pi55ed" in the same way, you could focus on the relevant damping, but I guess I was wrong, so I reposted less "distracting" videos.
