SportCopter II - UPDATE

martin-av8r

Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
178
Location
quebec canada
Aircraft
dominator
very nice for the customer with the money and the future of gyro with this big quality SCII dream machine
 

Dmorris

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2005
Messages
802
Location
Somerset Kentucky
Aircraft
I currently own an IFR Carbon Cub FX3. This is my 3rd Carbon Cub. Owned a Xenon, 2 TAF 2000's.
Total Flight Time
Thousands and adding every week!
Surely you are not comparing your CC to a rotorcraft. Apples and bananas. So your point is.....?
No real point I agree it is comparing Apples and Bananas. I did own 2 RAF 2000's with 2.2's and both were underpowered. I did not consider my Xenon with a 914 or the 912 RST Xenons underpowered.
 

SportCopter

Active Member
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
142
Location
Scappoose
Aircraft
Vortex M912, SportCopterII, Vortex 582
Does SportCopter have anything in the works of comparable form to compete with the European 912/914 powered gyros coming into the country?

.
Yes, we do. We will have an LSA approved side by side as well as a tandem model that will be comparable to the European Gyros. We have been keeping it under wraps at this time. However, some info was leaked out a little over a year ago.

The SCII has been a huge first step towards the development of these new models. This is a very popular machine with incredible performance and some of the SCII developments will be adapted onto these new models. If there are any features that you would like to see on a machine, please let us know, as We are open to any and all suggestions (This was how the SCII was developed for Law Enforcement and Foreign police use).

For further details please feel free to contact our office.

We can also add you to our list to receive any updates. We will email updates as they become closer to being finished, prior to the information being posted publicly.

Thank you very much for your interest.
 

fara

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
3,341
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
3600+ .. New to gyroplanes
I can't answer for SportCopter but I will give an opinion. They won't accommodate a direct drive prop, (require a re-drive), they won't make 230hp (80-115 turbo charged standard), they are very expensive for the HP that they do make, they won't accommodate a constant speed prop, they don't have a 2000hr TBO and virtually all the Euro machines that use them are under powered.

Well that is factually incorrect on some counts.

1) they are very expensive for the HP that they do make
Not correct. They are about the same or less than comparable powered Lycomings (new)

2) they won't accommodate a constant speed prop
Not correct. They have optional constant speed prop mechanisms

3) they don't have a 2000hr TBO
Not correct. They have a 2000 hours TBO


Opinion:
virtually all the Euro machines that use them are under powered

Well Gyroplanes are ever hungry for power. But a Rotax 914 powered Apollo 1-up at standard sea level conditions climbed a good 1350 FPM or 2-up around 900. The ground roll for takeoff of non-jump gyroplanes will never match an Apollo Fox or Carbon Cub or a high powered larger wing trike. That's just a fact and it has to be accepted. It is what it is.
 
Last edited:

Monarchist

MTO Sport Owner
Joined
Apr 20, 2007
Messages
1,066
Location
Austin, TX
Aircraft
MTO Sport, R22/R44, Cirrus SR22-G3 Turbo, Bonanza B35-N (dead engine), Aurora Butterfly
Total Flight Time
800
SportCopter, if you're looking for suggestions...

To my knowledge, no one has created a machine that is essentially an MTO/Magni-type machine with a removable enclosure. Basically, a Calidus but with a removable top.

Build something like that with a 912/914 option, sell it at a comparable price point to the Euro machines, and watch the sales come in.

-John
 

JMoCrane

Newbie
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
48
Location
Boulder Creek, CA
Total Flight Time
2 in FW and 1 in trike
I heard a rumor a while back about Sportcopter adding a dealer/training facility in the SF bay area. Any truth to this and if so, by when?
Thanks
 

Fly Army

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
1,956
Location
Utah/summer Florida/winter
Aircraft
From un-powered Paragliders off the side of a mountain to the Boeing 777.
Total Flight Time
18,000 ish , I guess
SportCopter, if you're looking for suggestions...

To my knowledge, no one has created a machine that is essentially an MTO/Magni-type machine with a removable enclosure. Basically, a Calidus but with a removable top.

Build something like that with a 912/914 option, sell it at a comparable price point to the Euro machines, and watch the sales come in.

-John
The ArrowCopter has that option as well as the Trixie.
 

Attachments

Fly Army

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
1,956
Location
Utah/summer Florida/winter
Aircraft
From un-powered Paragliders off the side of a mountain to the Boeing 777.
Total Flight Time
18,000 ish , I guess
The forum only allows one pic at a time it seems, here's a pic of the Arrowcopter in convertible mode :
 

Attachments

birdy

Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
7,052
Location
Alice Springs-central Oz.
Aircraft
open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
Total Flight Time
7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
None of the Rotax engines create enough extra power for the application they are generally being used for, IMHO,
Well, thats just a stupid matchup then init?
I took the ej22 off the RAF and mounted a 914.
Talk about chalk n cheese.
Ona hot day the ej struggled with just me sitn init.
The problem with the 914 was fitn a passenger in the cab thatd make it work hard.
 

Stan V

Active Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
1,271
Location
Monticello, GA
Aircraft
Piper Arrow/RAF2000
Total Flight Time
450
None of the Rotax engines create enough extra power for the application they are generally being used for, IMHO,
Well, thats just a stupid matchup then init?
I took the ej22 off the RAF and mounted a 914.
Talk about chalk n cheese.
Ona hot day the ej struggled with just me sitn init.
The problem with the 914 was fitn a passenger in the cab thatd make it work hard.
Birdy, this is all being aired on the Rotax engine power thread.
 

scott heger

Custom-made Troublemaker
Joined
Dec 14, 2003
Messages
1,635
Location
Southern California
Aircraft
SportCopter Bell 206L-1
Total Flight Time
1350
Yes, we do. We will have an LSA approved side by side as well as a tandem model that will be comparable to the European Gyros. We have been keeping it under wraps at this time. However, some info was leaked out a little over a year ago.

The SCII has been a huge first step towards the development of these new models. This is a very popular machine with incredible performance and some of the SCII developments will be adapted onto these new models. If there are any features that you would like to see on a machine, please let us know, as We are open to any and all suggestions (This was how the SCII was developed for Law Enforcement and Foreign police use).

For further details please feel free to contact our office.

We can also add you to our list to receive any updates. We will email updates as they become closer to being finished, prior to the information being posted publicly.

Thank you very much for your interest.
I think part of the reason for not giving a lot of engineering to the Rotax was initial market response. When the first SportCopter 2 place was displayed at Oshkosh a few years back, different potential buyers liked the machine very much, until they found out it did not have a standard aircraft engine in it, and then walked away. A 914 Rotax is a very expensive motor, and I believe testing revealed the Lycoming ended up putting out more power/torque for the $$$ . I may have it all wrong, but for the same money, most pilots feel more comfortable with Lycoming power. As mentioned earlier, the mission is not cross country speed, but getting (big Americans and specialized equipment)higher payloads airborne . A customer that did pay for several of the purchased ones being made now had this high payload requirement that no other gyro made has been used for. It is up to the factory to reveal this use if they choose to. They may shoot me out of the sky of I tell you now.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 

PW_Plack

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
8,550
Location
West Valley City, Utah, USA
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex 582
Total Flight Time
FW: 200 Gyro: 51
I think part of the reason for not giving a lot of engineering to the Rotax was initial market response. When the first SportCopter 2 place was displayed at Oshkosh a few years back, different potential buyers liked the machine very much, until they found out it did not have a standard aircraft engine in it, and then walked away...I may have it all wrong, but for the same money, most pilots feel more comfortable with Lycoming power.
Scott, the red prototype shown at Oshkosh in 2007 had a Subaru EJ22, not a Rotax. If you're among the very few still claiming the 914 is not a "standard aircraft engine," the world has left you behind. It's been years since I heard anyone claim that, with the exception of Continental and Lycoming sales reps. The idea that most pilots are more comfortable with Lycoming than Rotax is clearly debunked if you look in the only segment in which they compete. Rotax has sold many thousands of its 9xx-series engines. Lycoming has sold, what...maybe 20 or 30 IO-233s? Continental's O-200-D is cited as a major reason the Cessna 162 failed against its Rotax-powered rivals - too heavy, too expensive, too outdated.

The modified Lycoming IO-360 Jim's using has double the sea level takeoff horsepower of a Rotax 914, and the SCII needed (and has achieved) much better takeoff and climb performance than the eurogyros, and done it at a much higher gross weight. Rotax doesn't build anything comparable in power. If Bombardier/Rotax had continued development of their 200 HP (300 HP turbocharged) V6, that would have been really interesting vs Lycoming and Continental.
 
Last edited:

scott heger

Custom-made Troublemaker
Joined
Dec 14, 2003
Messages
1,635
Location
Southern California
Aircraft
SportCopter Bell 206L-1
Total Flight Time
1350
Scott, the red prototype shown at Oshkosh in 2007 had a Subaru EJ22, not a Rotax. If you're among the very few still claiming the 914 is not a "standard aircraft engine," the world has left you behind. It's been years since I heard anyone claim that, with the exception of Continental and Lycoming sales reps. The idea that most pilots are more comfortable with Lycoming than Rotax is clearly debunked if you look in the only segment in which they compete. Rotax has sold many thousands of its 9xx-series engines. Lycoming has sold, what...maybe 20 or 30 IO-233s? Continental's O-200-D is cited as a major reason the Cessna 162 failed against its Rotax-powered rivals - too heavy, too expensive, too outdated.

The modified Lycoming IO-360 Jim's using has double the sea level takeoff horsepower of a Rotax 914, and the SCII needed (and has achieved) much better takeoff and climb performance than the eurogyros, and done it at a much higher gross weight. Rotax doesn't build anything comparable in power. If Bombardier/Rotax had continued development of their 200 HP (300 HP turbocharged) V6, that would have been really interesting vs Lycoming and Continental.
Yes, the world has (happily) left me behind. The list price for a 914 is over 30K. I think the Lycoming they use is in the same money ballpark. For equal money , I will take the Lycoming any day. Vance's machine is far superior for getting a larger payload lifted than most gyros I have seen to date, and it is not a big HP engine to start. The new SportCopters are not cheap machines to purchase; and you are right the original had a Suburu engine in it. Potential buyers were not impressed, and walked away when they found that out. That a 914 is not a standard aircraft engine sounds like a good debate over a cold beverage the next time I see you. It is kind of like arguing that a MAC engine is a standard aircraft engine (for a drone). Many good engines and conversions keep coming down the pipeline, and that is good for experimental builders. At $30000 + for a engine, it better be damn good.

Scott Heger, Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
Last edited:

Fly Army

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
1,956
Location
Utah/summer Florida/winter
Aircraft
From un-powered Paragliders off the side of a mountain to the Boeing 777.
Total Flight Time
18,000 ish , I guess
Well having had plenty a lycoming haul my sorry butt over a lot of water and varied terrain without a single hiccup I too am a big fan of them. But the true selling point of the Rotax is the weight. You can't find a Lycoming or Continental that will make that HP at that weight. And it's from that perspective that generates their painful premium. That and the dollar to the euro conversion as well.

With the new found Chinese emphasis on creating a General Aviation culture from zero I would not be a bit surprised if we don't very soon see at least an attempt at a Rotax 912 clone from them. Much like the way in which they've taken over the scooter and sub 300cc motorcycle world. I can't say if it will be any good but it sure will be interesting that's for sure.
 

gyroboy

Newbie
Joined
Jan 4, 2014
Messages
31
Location
patterson lakes victoria australia
Well having had plenty a lycoming haul my sorry butt over a lot of water and varied terrain without a single hiccup I too am a big fan of them. But the true selling point of the Rotax is the weight. You can't find a Lycoming or Continental that will make that HP at that weight. And it's from that perspective that generates their painful premium. That and the dollar to the euro conversion as well.

With the new found Chinese emphasis on creating a General Aviation culture from zero I would not be a bit surprised if we don't very soon see at least an attempt at a Rotax 912 clone from them. Much like the way in which they've taken over the scooter and sub 300cc motorcycle world. I can't say if it will be any good but it sure will be interesting that's for sure.
Agree power to weight ratio cannot beat the Rotax, there are alternatives though as have heard on the grape wine Autogyro dabling with an MPE850 2cyl weber engine producing 155hp and better fuel economy and power to weight ratio than rotax. The cloud dancer 2 i believe has the MPE750 Turbo charged producing 135hp.
Now weber has a great pedigree involved in the development of the JUDD engine for formula 1 racing, they also have the best V4 power to weight ratio dry sump engines up to 300hp, and much cheaper than rotax, here is the link.
http://www.weber-motor.com/en/produkte/mpe-750/index.html
 

birdy

Newbie
Joined
Mar 19, 2004
Messages
7,052
Location
Alice Springs-central Oz.
Aircraft
open frame single seat & a 'wasa' RAF, among other types.
Total Flight Time
7000 odd, bout 5000 gyro
Birdy, this is all being aired on the Rotax engine power thread
Your point?

Its all about horses for courses.
If you dont think you need the best power to weight machine, you dont need a 4banger rotax.
But if you think you do, and you think they are too expensive, then think again, your neck depends onit.
You only get wot you pay for.

Sure, there are cheaper ones, lighter ones and maybe even longer TBO ones, but theres nuthn else that has the P/W, economy, and reliability ofa 4banger rotax, that will easily excead its TBO, without a hitch.

Get use to it.
 

scott heger

Custom-made Troublemaker
Joined
Dec 14, 2003
Messages
1,635
Location
Southern California
Aircraft
SportCopter Bell 206L-1
Total Flight Time
1350
It really depends on the HP you are trying to achieve. At the 100-115 HP range, the Rotax is definitely the top contender. But what if you need 200-300HP? Don't think Rotax has anything that is aircraft related. But Rotax sure build some nice small supercharged closed cooling system marine engines that make up to 300HP. Too bad no one has converted one of those yet. The whole damn jet ski new, engine included, cost about 12K. Seems a lot better than 30K for the 914.

I think for the size of the machine, Jim Vanek made the right choice. There is no other engine that delivers the power, reliability, parts availability, mechanics anywhere in the world able to maintain, and prop interchangeability than what they chose in the 200+ HP Lycoming.


Scott Heger Laguna Niguel,Ca N86SH
 
Last edited:

Steve_UK

Active Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Messages
3,662
Location
UK
Aircraft
I'm not a pilot but have been lucky enough to fly in Mi-24 Hind, Mi-2, Mi-17, Lynx HAS3, Gliders, GA
How many SCII gyros do you think they will sell?

Will it stem the imports into the USA - you've bought over 60 Autogyro/Magni in the past few years.

Magni and Autogyro plus others too are selling in Europe, the USA, South Africa, Australia and around the world -do you think the SCII will sell around the world clocking up large numbers of sales?

Is the SCII the key model for the future of Sportcopter or do the new models that SC have hinted at hold the key for future sales.

At the moment the imports are taking the market.
 
Top