Sportcopter 2-any have one built and flying? Reviews?

Kevin_Richey

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I believe some are confusing the Sport Copter SCll (which this thread was started about back in 2013) & the Sport Copter M2. The SCll is an older model big 2-place SxS w/ Lycoming engine).

The M2, Sport Copter's slightly smaller 2-place SxS, powered by the Rotax 915 still is yet to start production.
 

rtrhd

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I am not a fan of hearsay. I've scheduled a call to Jim Vanek tomorrow to learn more. In his email back to me he said there are NO SCII orders pending and the above statement is not true. I have a deposit on the M2, so I'm more than a little interested to get to the bottom of this.
I also have a large deposit on the M2. Although it is delayed by at least 6 months I am totally onboard and have nothing but good communications with Jim and Trenna. I truly believe it is going to be a great gyro. The biggest issue I see right now is because the aircraft is so well built it weighs about just under 100 pounds more than a Cavalon. The 915iS which Jim pretty much designed the aircraft around just doesn't have quite enough HP as he or any of us buyers want. He's now testing the Aeromomentum AM15 Turbo and Viking 195T. Also the Edge Performance EP912STI is an option.
I still haven't decided on my powerplant as I have concerns on the weight of the Viking 195T so I am leaning toward the Aeromomentum AM15 Turbo with 160 HP. I want simplicity, ease of maintenance, and as much horsepower as I can get for a lower weight.
By the way, when I put my deposit down, the contract shows the terms for receiving money back if you decide to not pursue the purchase.
 

BEN S

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I spoke with Jim as well, as usual there's more to the story. Not my place to tell, but I wouldn't be denigrating anyone if I was not personally involved in it, but that's just me.
 

DavePA11

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In the past some people paid for gyros and waited a very long time causing people to want money back, but it’s tied up covering the cost of the gyro under construction of the person in front of the order or build line… Makes for difficult scenario until production is ramped up or the business is well established with funds. It gets messy at this point to get money back, and may have to continue to wait and hope more orders come in until you get to the front of the build line…

This was the reason I ended up buying used initially until the gyro manufactures became more established….
 

Abid

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I also have a large deposit on the M2. Although it is delayed by at least 6 months I am totally onboard and have nothing but good communications with Jim and Trenna. I truly believe it is going to be a great gyro. The biggest issue I see right now is because the aircraft is so well built it weighs about just under 100 pounds more than a Cavalon. The 915iS which Jim pretty much designed the aircraft around just doesn't have quite enough HP as he or any of us buyers want. He's now testing the Aeromomentum AM15 Turbo and Viking 195T. Also the Edge Performance EP912STI is an option.
I still haven't decided on my powerplant as I have concerns on the weight of the Viking 195T so I am leaning toward the Aeromomentum AM15 Turbo with 160 HP. I want simplicity, ease of maintenance, and as much horsepower as I can get for a lower weight.
By the way, when I put my deposit down, the contract shows the terms for receiving money back if you decide to not pursue the purchase.

Wait a sec.
Rotax 915iS around which the aircraft was "designed" doesn't have quite enough HP? How can that be? If you design it for a certain engine shouldn't it have acceptable performance with that engine?
 

rtrhd

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Wait a sec.
Rotax 915iS around which the aircraft was "designed" doesn't have quite enough HP? How can that be? If you design it for a certain engine shouldn't it have acceptable performance with that engine?
If you read thru his Sportcopter M2 updates on their website on the aircraft development he said early on that he was disappointed in the 915iS compared to what he thought it was going to produce. Remember, this gyro has been in development since before the 915 came out. He's done a real good job and is actively trying to find a more suitable engine for the machine. One can hold out for additional improvements. Edge Performance is coming out with a 160/180/200 HP improvement to the 915 called the EP917Ti but it won't be out for several months.
 
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Abid

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If you read thru his Sportcopter M2 updates on their website on the aircraft development he said early on that he was disappointed in the 915iS compared to what he thought it was going to produce. Remember, this gyro has been in development since before the 915 came out. He's done a real good job and is actively trying to find a more suitable engine for the machine. One can hold out for additional improvements. Edge Performance is coming out with a 160/180/200 HP improvement to the 915 called the EP917Ti but it won't be out for several months.

Rotax 915iS produces more than 141 HP on the dyno consistently. It's got enough power for almost all 2-seater gyroplanes unless I guess its Sport Copter, I guess. The Edge Performance is a lighter engine so yes its more power but it also takes 10 months to get one and those are existing one with 155 HP based on 912ULS. How will SC ever get in production with such a choice whose engine isn't even done development yet?
Anyway, not my problem but I remember we were told in 2018 Oshkosh M2 is about to be out in a few months.
 

rtrhd

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Rotax 915iS produces more than 141 HP on the dyno consistently. It's got enough power for almost all 2-seater gyroplanes unless I guess its Sport Copter, I guess. The Edge Performance is a lighter engine so yes its more power but it also takes 10 months to get one and those are existing one with 155 HP based on 912ULS. How will SC ever get in production with such a choice whose engine isn't even done development yet?
Anyway, not my problem but I remember we were told in 2018 Oshkosh M2 is about to be out in a few months.
That sir is an excellent question! Part of the development growing pains.

I think the 915 would do fine for most things but remember he’s developing this for cattle mustering so he and we want more HP!
 

Abid

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That sir is an excellent question! Part of the development growing pains.

I think the 915 would do fine for most things but remember he’s developing this for cattle mustering so he and we want more HP!

Trust me I know about the development growing pains very personally. It's very easy to say things. It's very difficult to do them when it comes to imagining an aircraft, putting it on paper (on computer now a days) and executing all the parts in CAD and then making them and iterating that to work out the bugs. You need a capable team of designer, engineer, fabrication, rapid prototyping, testing, final design. And then there are the fligh testing iterations where small changes usually end up making big differences in the production ready design. The more experience one has in developing aircraft and certain types of aircraft the more one can anticipate certain issues and possibly fix them before they go down the wrong path too much. But 4 years is not development pains from the mockup. That's a whole new development cycle it sounds like. A fundamental shift. In the last year I designed with my team an airplane and a side by side gyroplane. The airplane was based on an earlier design I did but its quite a bit different. Its almost done being prototyped for flying now and the side by side is being tooled up for. Both combined took 1 year 5 months. Side by side gyro will take another 6 months with tooling to get to flying prototype. I do not get 4 years on one aircraft but as I said not my concern. I wish them luck.
 

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Abid

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Sure does look good. What is the skin made from? What type paint?

Medium weight Ceconite. SuperFlite but one can use Stewart or PolyFiber system as well
 

BEN S

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Abid, One thing Inlearned when I owned my business is always promote your positives, never your competitions negatives.
No matter how true or thinly veiled you come off looking self serving.
I can bet that 99% of even Jim's customers have no idea what they have been through in the last 2 years.
And yet his personal standard to never let something out thats not "just right" remains intact.
Jim does not spend his time here on the forum or I am quite sure he would say something.
 

Abid

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Abid, One thing Inlearned when I owned my business is always promote your positives, never your competitions negatives.
No matter how true or thinly veiled you come off looking self serving.
I can bet that 99% of even Jim's customers have no idea what they have been through in the last 2 years.
And yet his personal standard to never let something out thats not "just right" remains intact.
Jim does not spend his time here on the forum or I am quite sure he would say something.

Ben there are people working or have worked at SC who have definitely said enough about others
Anyway, all I can say is if it's been 4 years and the product that was announced 4 years ago and significant deposits taken is still not out, I think for the sake of gyroplane industry, its best to change things and be clear about what to expect and give some options to these people. I did not write about years of deposits gone on this thread. The guy who did write it is telling people not to buy gyroplanes from anyone with deposits down to company but use an escrow because of his friend's experience with SC. That hurts everyone and its right here out in the open for everyone to read. So yeah, I think you can say I am self-serving because I do not want everyone to think all gyroplane manufacturers do this. It seems to be a limited issue to a single manufacturer. I am not taking orders for things not in production. Nor is Magni or AutoGyro as best as I know.
 
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Sv.grainne

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Ben there are people working or have worked at SC who have definitely said enough about others
Anyway, all I can say is if it's been 4 years and the product that was announced 4 years ago and significant deposits taken is still not out, I think for the sake of gyroplane industry, its best to change things and be clear about what to expect and give some options to these people. I did not write about years of deposits gone on this thread. The guy who did write it is telling people not to buy gyroplanes from anyone with deposits down to company but use an escrow because of his friend's experience with SC. That hurts everyone and its right here out in the open for everyone to read. So yeah, I think you can say I am self-serving because I do not want everyone to think all gyroplane manufacturers do this. It seems to be a limited issue to a single manufacturer. I am not taking orders for things not in production. Nor is Magni or AutoGyro as best as I know.
Agree. When I bought my Aviomania I paid a deposit to ensure a production slot, then for the Rotax to avoid a pending price increase. That all took place over a 6 month window with reasonable expectations on production. Not sure, no let me rephrase that, if I could not lock in a delivery in a year or less I would be trying to back out. Either you are buying a product or investing in a future outcome. At 74 I did not want to invest! I'm working day-to-day on my future!
 

HeliSwede

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My hangar neighbor might disagree with you, not about Jim's fertile mind.

My neighbor has had a SCII on order for 6-7 years? with a substantial down payment and nothing to show for it but some pictures. He is not a happy camper.

The latest SCII licensed (mentioned above) shows Jim Vanek as the builder, so it must be his.
Marv has the only SCII that I am aware of, in private hands, but it was one of Jim's prototypes.

Having said this, another friend of mine has flown in an SCII and gives it high praises.

I don't want to disparage Sport Copter, I think they are fine people. I just hope that prospective customers ask the right questions before parting with their cash.
Tommy, did your neighbor ever get his aircraft or $ back?
 

HeliSwede

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I believe some are confusing the Sport Copter SCll (which this thread was started about back in 2013) & the Sport Copter M2. The SCll is an older model big 2-place SxS w/ Lycoming engine).

The M2, Sport Copter's slightly smaller 2-place SxS, powered by the Rotax 915 still is yet to start production.
You are correct. It was an deposit on an M2.
 

GyroChuck

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Tommy, did your neighbor ever get his aircraft or $ back?
Yes he got the aircraft. But was disappointed in it's performance and ended up selling it. I had the hangar across from him.

I will add, Jim did work with him on it's issues. But it did take a long time and he had to have the aircraft trucked back to Jim's facility.
 

HeliSwede

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Ben there are people working or have worked at SC who have definitely said enough about others
Anyway, all I can say is if it's been 4 years and the product that was announced 4 years ago and significant deposits taken is still not out, I think for the sake of gyroplane industry, its best to change things and be clear about what to expect and give some options to these people. I did not write about years of deposits gone on this thread. The guy who did write it is telling people not to buy gyroplanes from anyone with deposits down to company but use an escrow because of his friend's experience with SC. That hurts everyone and its right here out in the open for everyone to read. So yeah, I think you can say I am self-serving because I do not want everyone to think all gyroplane manufacturers do this. It seems to be a limited issue to a single manufacturer. I am not taking orders for things not in production. Nor is Magni or AutoGyro as best as I know.
To clarify, it’s up to the buyer to determine the potential financial risk and if they would be financially OK under worse case of a total loss of the deposit. Things happen that are unforeseen and out our control. Not unlike advice I gave to potential stock market investors over the years…. Don’t invest in stocks if you have a time horizon of less than 10yrs, and/or if fluctuations in value (down) keep you awake at night and/or if you do not have a years worth of living expenses safe and liquid. So yes I believe escrow is the right option for many buyers, while others may be comfortable without using escrow. I also know it takes a lot of capital to start a business and it requires taking care of your customer to stay in business. The other thing I worry about in any small business is having a succession plan. So many have a single person that is the brains and glue that makes the company run. But what happens if that person can no longer run the company. Will it survive? So as one rotary pilot to another, let’s maintain a vested interest in the safety and financial well being of one another. Watch each other’s backs. Lastly, Deal with honest persons/companies, pay attention to others personal testimonies and experiences and be realistic about the time, $ and training is takes to be a pilot. There is a lot of wisdom to be found on this forum. Many blessings to all of you that take the time to serve others so well!!
 

DavePA11

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Huh? No buyer would be financially ok with total loss of a substantial deposit on a product purchased. Stocks are completely different and are not a good comparison to buying a product. Even rich people don’t like throwing their money away and not getting what they paid for up front. So if you put down $60k for your Magni M24 and it was never delivered to you that would be ok for you? I doubt that would be the case for any buyer.
 
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