Sport Copter II - N767LW - California

Kolibri

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I never said the pilot is XYZ - I did note that his public FAA details shows he's built two flying machines over the years,the gyro and a Rotorway.
Vance had already mentioned that about the SCII with:
He has the repairman experimental aircraft builder certificate for the Sport Copter II.
and that was sufficient. You, however, had to add more (which included the owner's name).
Such was not necessary. Your motivation for posting such is curious to me, and others here.
If anybody wants to look up an N-# or a pilot's ratings, they can.


Nine aircraft in approx nine years.
Here's another way to put it;
Sport Copter's market share of 235hp IO-360 cabin class gyros: 100%


________
While I've never flapped my rotors, I have twice dropped the NW after my landing roll while it wasn't centered.
It was memorable, but I didn't tip it over.
Yes, these kinds of mistakes are something to watch out for, especially in one's first 100 hours of gyro time.
I, too, hope that this SCII owner repairs his ship and continues to fly it.

Regards, Kolibri
 
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Vance

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The Sport Copter II has a free castering nose wheel so dropping the nose wheel on takeoff or landing with a lot of rudder in would be a non-event.

I recently did a training exercise with a client who was having takeoff challenges. We balanced on the mains the length of the runway using the throttle to prevent liftoff. Twice he flapped the blades as the nose came up and because we were not accelerating The Predator just shook like a wet dog and the flap did not progress. The cyclic was not all the way back so the blades didn't hit anything. It was a learning opportunity.

The Sport Copter II has a lot of power and the same flap would progress very quickly as the nose comes up after the throttle is advanced. There is a limit to how fast the heavy Sport Rotor blades can be accelerated.

It is a very common error and I try to get my clients to flap the blades at least once so they get a feel for it and know what to do.

In my opinion the best action is to get the cyclic all the way forward, reduce the power and slow down using the brakes. I feel the flap is caused by too little rotor rpm with too much back stick combined with too much forward speed.

Some instructors teach to just reduce the power when the onset of flap is felt as a pulsing in the cyclic.

Given the consequences of blade flap I want to be as aggressive as practical in addressing the cause.

After flying the Predator with its one hundred rotor rpm pre-rotator it is easy to get overconfident with a powerful pre-rotator.
 

Ben Harrison

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I recently learned about a new thing called "doxing". Here is the definition: "Doxing (from dox, abbreviation of documents) or doxxing is the Internet-based practice of researching and broadcasting private or identifiable information (especially personally identifiable information) about an individual or organization." Every time someone has an accident or an incident in a gyro, you can bet the farm that person is going to get "doxxed" on this forum. And it's not always just SteveUK doing it. If someone flaps their blades, we don't need to know their name, where they live, registration info, political affiliations, religious beliefs, marital status and hat size. It's pouring salt in a wound, and not necessary.
 

PW_Plack

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Ben Harrison;n1129829 said:
"Doxing (from dox, abbreviation of documents) or doxxing is the Internet-based practice of researching and broadcasting private or identifiable information (especially personally identifiable information) about an individual or organization." Every time someone has an accident or an incident in a gyro, you can bet the farm that person is going to get "doxxed" on this forum.
Ben, none of what is being discussed here is private information. It's a matter of public record, as are the government reports, and you sign up for that when you put on your big-boy pants and become a pilot. It's uncomfortable when you screw up in a public way and it comes to light, but we wouldn't have many of our current tools for improving aviation safety if these events weren't explained and discussed. This forum is a more informal venue for those discussions; the NTSB takes a more formal approach.

The value of these discussions is greatest right after the event. The most valuable takeaway for me is being able to answer the question, "could this happen to me?" Whether we like it or not, the answer is usually "yes."
 

fara

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Ben Harrison;n1129829 said:
I recently learned about a new thing called "doxing". Here is the definition: "Doxing (from dox, abbreviation of documents) or doxxing is the Internet-based practice of researching and broadcasting private or identifiable information (especially personally identifiable information) about an individual or organization." Every time someone has an accident or an incident in a gyro, you can bet the farm that person is going to get "doxxed" on this forum. And it's not always just SteveUK doing it. If someone flaps their blades, we don't need to know their name, where they live, registration info, political affiliations, religious beliefs, marital status and hat size. It's pouring salt in a wound, and not necessary.
Except if the aircraft is N-Numbered then any joe can simply look it up extremely easily in a minute. No doxing needed. Its public record and NTSB reports are public too and there is no shame in an accident. We all make mistakes. Best to learn from them, admit where we want wrong and try never to do it again. I learned that the hard way long time ago.
 
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Ben Harrison

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Well if it's so easy to look up, then just look it up. Don't post it. That's just it, we can all look it up. Why do you guys post it?
 

Vance

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Ben Harrison;n1129863 said:
Well if it's so easy to look up, then just look it up. Don't post it. That's just it, we can all look it up. Why do you guys post it?

When I see a gyroplane mishap I wonder how I can avoid having a similar mishap.

I ask the question; was he inexperienced? In this case the accident pilot had more experience flying than I will ever get. Earning an Airline Transport Certificate is a major aviation accomplishment.

Someone asked if he was rated. In this case he was.

Did he have appropriate transition training into the Sport Copter II? In this case he had.

Was he an experienced gyroplane pilot? In this case he had his rating for about two years.

Someone suggested he was an idiot. In this case it seems he made all the right moves to be a safe gyroplane pilot.

Was it an unfamiliar environment? Santa Monica is very close to Van Nuys so it is reasonable to assume he has not unfamiliar with the busy environment of Van Nuys.

So what is left? A gusty environment; so I am reminded to expand wind limits slowly and carefully. It lets me know one of the things to emphasize.

The gem may be that he succumbed to pressure from the tower so we are all reminded that our safety is more important that the towers convenience and a very experienced gyroplane pilot even described how she had succumbed to the same pressures.

This thread helps me to become a safer gyroplane pilot and a better gyroplane instructor.

I have made similar mistakes and there but for fortune go I.

I feel there is value in sharing my mistakes so I do.

Not everyone feels that way.

Being a pilot is inherently a very public activity. There are people trying to stop us from flying.

The gyroplane community is very small and scrutinized by the public and pilots of other kinds of aircraft putting us on even more of a stage.

If you don’t want scrutiny of your actions then flying a gyroplane may be too public an activity.

In my opinion anyone who feels that they will never make a similar mistake is delusional.

I feel there is value in the study of aviation mishaps and often a name is a part of that study.
 

Kolibri

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I feel the flap is caused by too little rotor rpm with too much back stick combined with too much forward speed.
That's the event in a nutshell. Good synopsis, Vance.


If someone flaps their blades, we don't need to know their name, where they live, registration info, political affiliations, religious beliefs, marital status and hat size. It's pouring salt in a wound, and not necessary.

Well if it's so easy to look up, then just look it up. Don't post it. That's just it, we can all look it up. Why do you guys post it?
Exactly, Ben, thanks for concurring. The pilot's ratings and experience could have been posted for general discussion . . . without his name.

Just because his name was public information doesn't mean that it's necessary or polite or appropriate to publicize it.

Regards, Kolibri
 

Vance

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Kolibri;n1129887 said:
That's the event in a nutshell. Good synopsis, Vance.

Regards, Kolibri[/COLOR]
I did not write that in relation to this mishap.

I suspect that quote is from a different thread if I even wrote it.

In my opinion it is missing several components that formed the accident chain.
 

Kolibri

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I feel the flap is caused by too little rotor rpm with too much back stick combined with too much forward speed.
I did not write that in relation to this mishap.

I suspect that quote is from a different thread if I even wrote it.
Then re-read your post #22 in this thread, on page 2:

The Sport Copter II has a lot of power and the same flap would progress very quickly as the nose comes up after the throttle is advanced. There is a limit to how fast the heavy Sport Rotor blades can be accelerated.

It is a very common error and I try to get my clients to flap the blades at least once so they get a feel for it and know what to do.

In my opinion the best action is to get the cyclic all the way forward, reduce the power and slow down using the brakes. I feel the flap is caused by too little rotor rpm with too much back stick combined with too much forward speed.

Some instructors teach to just reduce the power when the onset of flap is felt as a pulsing in the cyclic.

Given the consequences of blade flap I want to be as aggressive as practical in addressing the cause.


02-02-2018, 04:46 PM
https://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/rotorcraft/piloting-technique-accident-discussions/1129649-sport-copter-ii-n767lw-california?p=1129816#post1129816
____________
That's the event in a nutshell. Good synopsis, Vance.
In my opinion it is missing several components that formed the accident chain.
Of course it is missing some components. That's why I wrote "in a nutshell".
It's a metaphor for a simplistic though essentially accurate statement.
Geez.
 

Vance

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Kolibri;n1129948 said:
Then re-read your post #22 in this thread, on page 2:



____________


Of course it is missing some components. That's why I wrote "in a nutshell".
It's a metaphor for a simplistic though essentially accurate statement.
Geez.
I stand corrected.

In my opinion what I wrote in not this event in a "nutshell" and was not intended to by a synopsis of this event.

I feel you may have found a way to avoid learning much from this event.
 

eddie

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Kolibri in a nut shell is a simple explanation,not necessary an accurate one,

as are most of your explanations, not necessarily accurate ones.
 

Kolibri

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The pilot of this SCII had:
too little rotor rpm
with too much back stick
combined with too much forward speed​

I'll stand by my "in a nutshell" characterization, even if Vance says that he didn't mean it that way.
That'll teach me to pay him a passing compliment, lol.
 

Vance

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I have heard he had 180 rotor rpm when he started his takeoff roll.

I see people apply full back stick and full throttle at 180 rotor rpm all the time and it usually works out fine.

I tell my clients flying The Predator they can go to full back stick at 120 rotor rpm and full power at 180 rotor rpm in stronger winds and gusts than Van Nuys had that day. I caution them that they may be rushing the blades and be prepared to manage blade divergence with full forward cyclic and engine to idle.

The Predator does not accelerate as fast as the Sport Copter II and the nose will not come up as fast or as far.

The blades are heavier on the Sport Copter II and may not accelerate as fast.

In my opinion pressure to get off quickly, gusting conditions and inexperience exacerbated the above challenges and led to a mishap.

Having flown with him I can say with confidence; he is a better, more experience pilot than I will ever be. He has a better feel for the aircraft than I do.

I have not flown a Sport Copter II and I was not in the aircraft when the event occurred so this is all just conjecture.

I feel the world is not black and white and procedures may need to be adjusted to address the circumstances.

I try to teach that a gyroplane is best flown by observing what is going on and addressing it rather than specific procedures.

I teach to approach the limits slowly and with caution.
 

Steve_UK

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Update - the NTSB Final report is now up - their Analysis states, [h=2]Analysis[/h]


According to the pilot of the experimental amateur-built gyroplane, during the takeoff roll on runway 34 in gusting wind conditions, the pilot did not allow the rotor rpm to adequately increase. He advanced the throttle and the nose pitched up. The gyroplane exited the left side of the runway and the rotor blades struck the propeller.

The gyroplane sustained substantial damage to the vertical stabilizer.

The METAR at the airport reported that about the time of the accident, the wind was from 350° at 17kts gusting to 22kts.

The pilot reported that this accident could have been prevented if he had confirmed the proper rotor rpm.

The pilot reported that there were no preaccident mechanical malfunctions or failures with the gyroplane that would have precluded normal operation.

[h=2]Probable Cause and Findings[/h]
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be:


The pilot's decision to takeoff in gusting wind conditions with insufficient rotor rpm.





more here


https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20180129X84239&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=CA
 
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