Some wind and decision making lessons.

[Vance]

But a vertical descent would avoid such trouble in those winds?

_______

LOL, good one, Paul.

Regards,
Kolibri

Yes and I explained that earlier in this thread.

 

[Vance]

Vance, any downdraft with sufficient energy to reach the ground, will.
This is not restricted to merely microbursts.
Airport rotors from strong winds flowing over hangars will commonly reach the ground.
Gryoplanes are still aircraft, and not immune from the power of downdrafts, mountain wave action, or small localized rotors.



________

Regards,
Kolibri[/COLOR]

From the Encyclopaedia Britannica
Updraft and downdraft, in meteorology, upward-moving and downward-moving air currents, respectively, that are due to several causes. Local daytime heating of the ground causes surface air to become much warmer than the air above, and, because warmer air is less dense, it rises and is replaced by descending cooler air. The vertical ascending current, called a thermal, may reach an altitude of 3 km (2 miles) or more. The greater the radius of the thermal, the higher it is likely to ascend. Updrafts and downdrafts also occur as part of the turbulence that is created when air passes over topographic barriers such as mountains.

Strong updrafts and downdrafts occur in thunderstorms as well. Updrafts characterize a storm’s early development, during which warm air rises to the level where condensation begins and precipitation starts to develop. In a mature storm, updrafts are present alongside downdrafts caused by cooling and by falling precipitation. These downdrafts, originating at high levels, contain cold, dense air that spreads out at the ground as a cold air wedge. The sharp changes in wind direction associated with downdrafts near the ground are a threat to aircraft during landing and takeoff. Intense downdrafts are called downbursts or microbursts.

In my experience moving air has to go somewhere.

When I encounter an updraft somewhere nearby is a down draft.

If I am caught in a 600 foot per minute (6kts) down draft please tell me where the wind goes when it gets to the ground.

In a microburst it spreads in all directions as it collides with the ground because it is going much faster than 600 feet per minute.

This is pretty basic stuff and I cannot imagine why you refuse to grasp it.

It is possible to have turbulence near the ground, just not down drafts.

It doesn't make as much difference to a gyroplane as a fixed wing because it is not likely to stall from a change in indicated air speed or direction.

 

[Kolibri]

If I am caught in a 600 foot per minute (6kts) down draft please tell me where the wind goes when it gets to the ground.

But, according to you, downdrafts don't reach the ground.

It is possible to have turbulence near the ground, just not down drafts.

Certainly. That's been part of my point.

It doesn’t make as much difference to a gyroplane as a fixed wing because it is not likely to stall from a change in indicated air speed or direction.

"as much difference" -- yes, I agree. Finally, you offer a reasonable qualification in this.

Part of competent aviating is to be able to make a safe landing from anywhere in the pattern if an engine-out occurs.
This includes gyroplanes.
In not only my opinion, a vertical descent to the flare through turbulence negates that safety factor.

 

[Vance]

Finally your sophomoric attempt at satire only illustrates that your vertical decent landing technique in strong turbulence is less defensible than you imagine.
Apparently nobody teaches it, else you'd have mentioned some CFIs who do -- or some would have concurred with you by now.

Regards,
Kolibri[/COLOR]

If you don't like my method of teaching and description of the Kolibri method for landing in high gusting winds then you teach it and describe it. You said you were going to become a CFI so it will be good practice for you.

I have not taken flight instruction from a CFI who did not teach the method I use for landing in high winds.

Most teach a low time pilot to avoid landing in strong gusting winds as I do.

 

[Vance]

But, according to you, downdrafts don't reach the ground.


Certainly. That's been part of my point.


"as much difference" -- yes, I agree. Finally, you offer a reasonable qualification in this.

Part of competent aviating is to be able to make a safe landing from anywhere in the pattern if an engine-out occurs.
This includes gyroplanes.
In not only my opinion, a vertical descent to the flare through turbulence negates that safety factor.

Down drafts don't reach the ground because there is nowhere for the air to go.

Thirty knots of indicated airspeed at 20 feet is plenty to manage an engine out landing.

Thirty knots of indicated air speed at five feet takes no corrective action if the engine quits in any gyroplane with suspension.

I suspect you are not as ignorant as you pretend to be and you just want to fight.

I will not engage in a battle of wits with an ignorant opponent.

I could be wrong about your level of confusion in which case in my opinion you are at great risk flying your gyroplane.

I am not your flight instructor and have no desire to be.

 

[j bird]

Does anyone on the forum know this person, Kolibri? Paul? Wyoming? Airport? maybe some pics. of his aircraft, gyroplanes? There's a reason he's not out in the open, he's a "Troll", he feeds of the member's posts, especially Vance.

 

[Kolibri]

I have not taken flight instruction from a CFI who did not teach the method I use for landing in high winds.

Your VCV method that day? Please.

Thirty knots of indicated airspeed at 20 feet is plenty to manage an engine out landing.

In strong gusty winds, with a passenger and 5000' DA?
It is pointless to further deal with such suspect judgment.

One simply doesn't take passengers up in conditions where "luck" is necessary to execute a good landing.
You took unnecessary chances that day, and I'll leave it at that.


_____
j bird, have a look at my own personal thread.
And, yes, people here have met me, and seen me fly my RAF.
Your profile mentions "26.5 duel,RAF,Sparrow-Hawk,Cavalon,Calidus".
Good luck in your training.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

In strong gusty winds, with a passenger and 5000' DA?
It is pointless to further deal with such suspect judgment.

One simply doesn't take passengers up in conditions where "luck" is necessary to execute a good landing.
You took unnecessary chances that day, and I'll leave it at that.
Regards,
Kolibri[/COLOR]

Please; anyone explain if you can how strong gusting winds and 4,500 foot density altitude make an engine out landing more difficult than in calm winds at sea level.

As I wrote; it was luck it was an elegant landing.

I did not write nor do I believe it was luck that it was a safe landing.

 

[Vance]

Always the optimist and in the hope I can teach someone something or at least not have people come away with wrong information; I will again put on my instructor hat.

These questions are for anyone reading this thread who is a certificated gyroplane pilot.

I feel they go directly to why there is a difference between turbulence and a down draft and why it is important to understand that a down draft generally doesn’t go all the way to the ground.

I suspect that Kolibri will not answer them for fear his answers will be wrong.

Assume we want to maintain our course, airspeed and altitude to practical test standards. We are at 1,300 feet mean sea level and flying near minimum power required with a light load and plenty of power.

What should I do with the throttle and cyclic control flying a gyroplane in a 600 feet per minute down draft?

What should I do with the throttle and cyclic control flying a gyroplane when a gust reduces my indicated airspeed below the minimum power required speed?

Thank you for your help.

 

[gyrojake]

What should I do with the throttle and cyclic control flying a gyroplane in a 600 feet per minute down draft?

What should I do with the throttle and cyclic control flying a gyroplane when a gust reduces my indicated airspeed below the minimum power required speed?

Thank you for your help.

Dang Vance, those are trick questions.
For one, An RAF can only climb 500 feet a minute and what you call minimum required speed is an RAF's VNE , come on give the guy a break !!!!

 

[Vance]

Come on Jake, you know the answers and why.

I have flown some RAFs that would climb at 700 feet per minute and show an indicated airspeed of 80kts although it never matched the ground speed.

They are not RAF questions anyway Jake, they are gyroplane questions.

 

[Kolibri]

I suspect that Kolibri will not answer them for fear his answers will be wrong.

No, but because you are not dealing with me in good faith.
Had I correctly answered your (few relevant) questions of post #46, you would have only used them as fodder for ridicule instead of sincere discussion.
Your embarrassingly fatuous post #60 was proof of that.

Please; anyone explain if you can how strong gusting winds and 4,500 foot density altitude make an engine out landing more difficult than in calm winds at sea level.

Uh, yeah, just leave out the part where you were at dropping in from 20' with no forward motion.
With ample altitude or airspeed (i.e., energy management), an engine-out needn't be any dire issue.
However, you had neither ample airspeed nor altitude, and insufficient time to increase either if the engine quit.

When the gust died on you which "dropped us down pretty quickly" you needed to immediately add a "burst of power".
Had your engine at that moment quit or even burbled, an "aggressive flare" wouldn't have been enough to save you and you'd have pancaked in.
Your vertical descent from a mere 20' with no forward motion gave you no "out" in case of engine trouble.
You unnecessarily took that risk, and with a passenger.
You seem incapable of candidly admitting this.

Down drafts don't reach the ground because there is nowhere for the air to go.

Maybe you're right.
I just tried to blow away a piece of lint on the floor, from 2 vertical feet.
I couldn't do it because the downdraft of expelled breath didn't reach the ground because the air had nowhere to go.
It's amazing how the air knew that, and stopped on its own.

. . . a down draft generally doesn’t go all the way to the ground.

Oh, so now it's "generally"?
Well, that's progress, I suppose.

Meanwhile, I notice that no gyro CFI has ratified your VCV landing technique in those conditions.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

I have had enough of being patient and polite with Kolibri; trying to explain things as though he wanted to learn. He has made some very serious charges and continues to run on despite my efforts to educate. His questions are framed as answers so there is no point in answering them.

A vertical descent with thirty knots indicated air speed is not a difficult or challenging landing.

CFIs are required to teach vertical descents.

The goal was to land with power and I chose to descend all the way to the ground at 30kts indicated air speed because at 30kts I was not moving backward over the ground. I used the ramp because I didn't want to tie up the runway while I spooled down.

Only an inexperienced gyroplane pilot would imagine this is some special dangerous trick landing. Any who has landed a gyroplane in thirty knots of wind knows just how easy using a vertical descent is. I could talk any of my clients who have six hours of dual or more with me through this landing.

Vertical descents are a required part of the practical test standards because the FAA and the NTSB have identified the lack of skill and experience in slow flight and vertical descents as an accident cause. The way you terminate a vertical descent is to increase airspeed.

The reason for the 600 foot agl hard deck for the vertical descent in the practical test standards is the FAA wants a low time gyroplane pilot to demonstrate that they can control their altitude without putting the examiner at risk. Too many applicants do not have enough skill doing a vertical descent to recognize how long it takes to arrest a low airspeed vertical descent and the FAA wants the examiner to have time to fix it if the student screws up. All the maneuvers in the practical test have a 600 foot hard deck. Bust it and the test is over.

I wanted to land at cruise power so I had good rudder authority and plenty of reserve power if I encountered a wind shear. I found a power setting that allowed The Predator to descend at 200 feet per minute without moving backward. The closer I am to minimum power required speed the less power is required and the less rudder authority I have. If the actual wind had been higher I would have used a higher indicated air speed to avoid landing going backward. The actual winds were what was important, not the reported winds.

Flying is about airspeed, not ground speed. I will not let a client make their first landing until I am confident they understand this. Less ground speed on touchdown is a safer landing. The goal of a good gyroplane landing is to touch down as gently as possible with as little forward roll as possible. We could barely feel her touch down.

I can only guess that inexperience and lack of imagination leads someone to imagine a vertical descent in a 30kt wind is anything like a vertical descent in zero wind. A power off vertical descent at sea level in no wind conditions would have had me descending at 1,400 to 1,600 feet per minute with no rudder authority in The Predator. Add power and it would not be a vertical descent. I could not reuse The Predator after a vertical descent landing in no wind conditions.


In my opinion a fear of a vertical descent in high winds at a relatively high indicated air speed is completely unfounded.

In my opinion based on my experience an engine out landing under those conditions would have been a nonevent. I would simply lower the nose and flare more aggressively before touch down.

An engine out landing at VCV that day would be much easier in those conditions than and engine out landing in no wind conditions or with a ten knot wind of unknown direction.

I had a huge unobstructed landing zone and a clear picture of which way the wind was blowing.

I already have more than the normal indicated air airspeed for that altitude in the round out.

It would be much easier than the engine out on takeoff that I practice weekly.

I am not able to even guess what Kolibri's fear is about the density altitude and engine out landings. I have no reduction in power because the engine is not making any and my rotor is turning faster.

A mention of using speed and ground effect to cushion the landing is indicative of a fixed wing perspective and a lack of understanding about how ground effect in a gyroplane influences a landing.

In my opinion the takeoff that day was not dangerous or difficult.

With a 200 foot wide runway I can takeoff directly into the wind and with 30knot plus winds rotor spool up is much easier than normal and can be done to flight rotor rpm stopped on the runway.

The most challenging part of the takeoff in that wind was controlling the blades in the early part of the spool up. Even with the cyclic full forward the blades tried to diverge. Eighty rotor rpm mitigated this challenge.

My takeoff roll was 15 feet to 20 feet. A gust popped us up early and we lifted off at about 45kts indicated air speed instead of the goal of 50kts. My ground speed is not relevant to anything but Kolibri’s fears.

I found descending air around 200 feet above the runway and that pushed us back down to 175 feet and we were crabbed 60 degrees to the runway. We flew the length of the 9,000 foot runway climbing and descending at full power because of the gusts and the rotor off the mountains.

At that density altitude at near maximum takeoff weight The Predator climbs around 500 feet per minute so a 600 foot per minute down draft will have me descending. Fortunately the descending air did not go all the way to the ground because it was not a microburst. The wind shear also affected her rate of climb and was a separate issue.

The Predator will climb out faster in coordinated flight so I had no desire to align her with the runway. In my opinion 200 feet agl is not close to the ground and over 500 feet above the ground is a comfortable altitude for me to turn on course and away from the safety of the runway.

I fly the pattern at SMX at 550 feet above the ground and can make it a quarter mile to the runway at that altitude from downwind for a 180 degree power off autorotation. I practice this regularly.

At any time I could have simply pulled the power and descended back to the runway.

Even after I left the safety of the runway and turned on course there were lots of available landing zones.

I was cautious and came into El Mirage high because there is a gap in the mountains that acts like a venturi and creates a down draft to about 100 feet above the surface. I stayed well clear of the gap based on local knowledge and in fact found lift as I neared the hills.

The landing at gyro cove was as nice as could be to the west with a very gentle touch down. I identified the wind sock, pulled the power back to 1,600 rpm and landed.

It is annoying to have such an inexperienced gyroplane pilot accuse me of being reckless and endangering the life of a passenger simply because he does not have the experience or desire to imagine what I was doing and why it was not particularly dangerous.

I take my responsibilities as pilot in command seriously and I have a low fear threshold.

A good pilot learns something every time they fly no matter how much experience they have. Kolibri's puzzlement about my leaning from the flight helps to define just what sort of pilot he is.

I will not allow such distractions to detract from my enjoyment of the Rotary Wing Forum.

 

[Kolibri]

A vertical descent with thirty knots indicated air speed is not a difficult or challenging landing.

Any who has landed a gyroplane in thirty knots of wind knows just how easy using a vertical descent is.

In my opinion a fear of a vertical descent in high winds at a relatively high indicated air speed is completely unfounded.

I AGREE!!!

I have landed my RAF on a taxiway in 30+kts wind, but, the wind was mostly smooth, and I was alone:

Landed the other day after a short x/c trip in at least 30kt winds. I chose the taxiway, which had a perfect headwind, and just before I touched down I was almost in a hover. It was quite mesmerizing, and so I had to focus on keeping my power up to the very last. The landing was still a bit clunky as a gust ballooned me a few inches. New grist for this mill!

My landing was very similar to the below video:

Vertical Landings in the MTO Sport AutoGyro Gyroplane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9lZjw66ow0

But you described much more than that at VCV.
Winds sustained at 28kts, variable from building turbulence, and gusting to 38kts (right at your 10kt gust limit).
Your reported wind conditions were not smooth like the above video, the pilot never having to aggressively add power and flare.
Any reduction of wind he easily handled with a bit of pitch.
Not at all so in your case.

Vertical descents are a required part of the practical test standards

But not as part of any landing. And, they are done above 600' AGL.
Please stop conflating that PTS maneuver at altitude with your landing at VCV.

It is annoying to have such an inexperienced gyroplane pilot accuse me of being reckless . . .

A senior gyro CFI with well over twice your experience and much greater skill read your Facebook account of VCV, and mentioned it to me.
While he did not ask me to post for him, he and I did discuss at length your landing and takeoff.
He said that wouldn't have chosen to land your way "in a million years". According to him, it was "unprofessional" and showed "poor judgment".
Etc.

In my opinion based on my experience an engine out landing under those conditions would have been a nonevent.
I would simply lower the nose and flare more aggressively before touch down.

And if you were then experiencing local rotors off the hangars, pitching down into them could have gotten you pushed into the runway.
(I hadn't thought of that. It's according to somebody much better than you.)

My gyro CFI friend's last bit of advice to me was not to further bother trying to combat such "lunacy".

 

[eddie]

Seems to me that you and your trusted CFI needs to book some time with Vance and learn how to fly a gyro.

 

[Kolibri]

I have yet to encounter a down draft of sufficient magnitude that it pushed me into the ground.

Down drafts from rotors don't go all the way to the ground and will not smack a gyroplane right into the runway.

You are welcome to cling to your misconceptions that down drafts go all the way to the ground . . .

Down drafts don't reach the ground because there is nowhere for the air to go.

__________
Keeping the above assertions in mind, here is a gyro CFI's experience:

It was a very turbulent one day last summer. I was above the runway on a landing approach about 10 feet above the ground.

I was traveling approximately 20 mph over touch down speed.

Suddenly I dropped like a rock, rear wheels touched runway.

Then just as quick in he blink of an eye I was back in the air approximately 20 feet above the ground.

I had gained 10 feet in altitude.

I never moved the stick or changed my air speed.

It happened so fast there was no time to react.

The air was turbulent that day.

Never had it happen since then.

01-14-2013, 06:30 AM
Brent Drake

Turbulence is one of the most unpredictable of all the weather phenomena that are of significance to pilots. Turbulence is an irregular motion of the air resulting from eddies and vertical currents. It may be as insignificant as a few annoying bumps or severe enough to momentarily throw an airplane out of control or to cause structural damage. Turbulence is associated with fronts, wind shear, thunderstorms, etc.