Some wind and decision making lessons.

[Kolibri]

If you weren't confused about airspeed and ground speed you would not be condemning a vertical descent landing, and you would not have written repeatedly that thirty knots is a low airspeed landing Kolibri.

Against 28G38 winds, 30kts was a low airspeed (as I've repeatedly explained my opinion thereof, concurred by a gyro CFI I respect).

In zero wind, 30kts is a high airspeed.

I have not experienced a sudden and dramatic loss of lift near the ground in strong gusting conditions.

Uh, well, that is just what he described, calling for aggressive reaction.
(Sorry, but it's getting old trying to reply to somebody who disagrees with himself.)

I would not fly or land Kolibri's high thrust line narrow track no suspension RAF in twenty eight knot gusting to thirty eight knot wind and I suspect he wouldn't either.

Correct, I wouldn't.

Perhaps that is in part why he demonstrates such a lack of understanding of wind, air speed and ground speed.

Vance just can't help doing the same two things, over and over again: falsely imputing some "lack of understanding" of mine, and then snidely berating me for it.
Perhaps he actually doesn't realize that he does it, but I'm confident in RWF reader discernment.

________
Within the comfortable levels of gyro performance and piloting skill, I recommend trying both landing techniques in gusty winds. See which you prefer.

Safe flying,
Kolibri

 

[eddie]

(Vance just can't help doing the same two things, over and over again: falsely imputing some[/COLOR] "lack of understanding" of mine, and then snidely berating me for it.
Perhaps he actually doesn't realize that he does it, but I'm confident in RWF reader discernment.)

Actually you are the one who snidely berates everyone who challenges you.

And if its getting old replying to Vance ,then please quit replying, we the RWF discerning readers would appreciate that.

 

[Vance]

Today, 12:04 PM
"I would not fly or land Kolibri's high thrust line narrow track no suspension RAF in twenty eight knot gusting to thirty eight knot wind and I suspect he wouldn't either".

"Correct, I wouldn't." Kolibri

What is your wind limit in your RAF Kolibri?

Kolibri has admitted he has no experience landing his gyroplane in strong gusting winds and yet he is telling me how wrong and dangerous my described procedure was for landing The Predator in strong gusting winds at VCV.

When someone doesn't understand the basic concepts of flying a gyroplane; the things a gyroplane can do well may seem hazardous.

I run into people at airshows explaining how dangerous something I just did in my routine is; usually it is from people who have never flown a gyroplane and do not understand how they fly.

There are always at least two people from the FAA watching and they have yet to caution me about anything I do.

Now Kolibri; who claims to be a gyroplane pilot who has no experience flying his gyroplane in gusting high winds, wasn't there and didn't even see what I did; determines from my description that my landing at VCV was dangerous and I used incorrect landing procedures in high gusting winds.

He won't even use the correct terminology or clearly state what he would have done differently and why.

He continues to confuse wind (a ground reference term) with indicated air speed (a term used to describe flight).

In my opinion these are the actions of an internet Troll.

There was no sudden and dramatic loss of lift during the landing at VCV.

As I have previously posted there was a reduction of air speed as is typical in gusting conditions based on what I have explained about wind and gusts.

In my opinion based on my experience it would be very unlikely to encounter a down draft just five feet above the ground. The moving air would have nowhere to go.

Thirty knots is below the minimum power required speed in The Predator (45kts) so a reduction in airspeed requires an increase in power to maintain the rate of descent.

I was not moving backward over the ground so clearly the wind speed when I began my vertical descent was close to thirty knots.

I feel flying a gyroplane involves responding to what is happening. If I found we were moving backward over the ground I would have increased my airspeed till we were not. I feel touching down while moving backward may lead to a loss of control.

To sum up so people don't have to read through the insults and misconceptions:

All aircraft fly in the air with airspeed.

Ground reference is a perspective and has little to do with flying.

Wind and vertical descent are ground reference terms.

Power and airspeed are what control climb, level flight or descent in a gyroplane.

Gyroplanes have a minimum power required speed. Below or above that they will need additional power to fly level.

During a steady state descent below minimum power required speed a gyroplane will need more power to maintain that rate of descent if the indicated airspeed is reduced.

According to U.S. weather observing practice, gusts are reported when the peak wind speed reaches at least 16 knots and the variation in wind speed between the peaks and lulls is at least 9 knots. The duration of a gust is usually less than 20 seconds.

Descending air typically does not go all the way to the ground except in collapsing thunderstorms of microbursts.

In my opinion the most common way to tip over a gyroplane while landing is to land with forward speed misaligned with the direction of travel.

Because wind gusts are often from a different direction than the primary wind; landing in high winds with no forward roll may have value. If the no forward ground speed is started at twenty feet above the ground I would refer to this as a vertical descent.

The purpose of a wind limit is to quantify what I am comfortable with. It cannot be hard and fast because wind conditions can change quickly. My normal limit at Santa Maria is thirty five knots with a ten knot gust spread. I have taken off and landed in significantly higher winds.

In my opinion doing something that frightens someone on their first gyroplane flight is a poor aviation decision.

In my experience any time there is wind over fifteen knots there will be turbulence from ground obstructions.

Some gyroplanes handle winds better than others.

 

[Kolibri]

Kolibri has admitted he has no experience landing his gyroplane in strong gusting winds . . .

Now Kolibri; who claims to be a gyroplane pilot who has no experience flying his gyroplane in gusting high winds . . .

Right on cue: yet another invention. I never made any such "admission".
All I concurred with was that I would not choose to fly in winds of 28G38kts. (I could safely land in such if I got caught in them yet had to land.)
I've plenty of gyro experience in the below conditions:

According to U.S. weather observing practice, gusts are reported when the peak wind speed reaches at least 16 knots
and the variation in wind speed between the peaks and lulls is at least 9 knots.

yet he is telling me how wrong and dangerous my described procedure was for landing The Predator in strong gusting winds at VCV.

Vance has again misquoted me. I never called his landing dangerous.
It was his takeoff into 60° x-winds of 30G38+ into a mountain rotor that seemed dangerous to me, being "dribbled" down a 9000+ foot runway to make 500' AGL.

Ground reference is a perspective and has little to do with flying.

My remarks about the vertical descent were about the landing.
Landing seems very definitely a ground reference maneuver.

There was no sudden and dramatic loss of lift during the landing at VCV.

I was making a vertical descent from about 20 feet when the gust went away and dropped us down pretty quickly. I added power and flared aggressively;

Sounds like a sudden and dramatic loss of lift to me.
(Vance calls it a "reduction of airspeed". This resulted in a loss of lift, until he added power.)

In my opinion the most common way to tip over a gyroplane while landing is to land with forward speed misaligned with the direction of travel.

Because wind gusts are often from a different direction than the primary wind; landing in high winds with no forward roll may have value.

I never said that one must land with forward speed, but merely to have some forward speed during the approach, round-out, and ground effect.
From there, one can touchdown at any ground speed desired, even zero.

I think it's preferable to fly forward into -- vs. drop down into -- strong gusts for landing.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

Please share your knowledge and experience with the readers of the Rotary Wing Forum Kolibri.

What is your wind limit at your home airport in your RAF?

Do you have a cross wind limit for takeoff?

How high above the ground do you feel you need to be before leaving the runway and turning on course?

Is there a reason to turn on course before the end of the runway?

Why is it preferable to fly forward over the ground on approach when landing in 28kt gusting to 38kt winds?

How near the ground does the rotor need to be to take advantage of ground effect landing in a 30kt plus gusting wind?

How do you respond to a down draft in your gyroplane if you want to maintain altitude?

What is the best way to respond to a reduction in indicated airspeed in your gyroplane if you want to maintain altitude?

 

[Kolibri]

Vance, this thread is about your flight.

I've already clearly explained how and why I land into strong winds with gusts.
It's worked out just fine for me in winds of 25-32kts and with gusts.

Your Predator wind/gust limits are higher than mine, or eddie's, and probably most gyro pilots. Good for you.
However, you still pressed your own limits away from your home airport.

A vertical descent landing can be made for fun or from necessity (to clear an obstacle or land in a small area).

Since no necessity was present, I suspect you were grandstanding a bit for your new friend/passenger.
As you admitted, it "was luck it was an elegant landing in those conditions".

I liked your original list (my bold emphasis):

What did I learn again?

Don’t hesitate to cancel a flight for wind particularly with a passenger.

Don’t press your wind limits away from your home airport.

Gusts and turbulence are what cause the challenges.

Wind can be very local and be radically different just five miles away or a few minutes later.

Respect the warning sign of lenticular clouds.

The ATIS is only accurate at that place for that moment when it is recorded.

Even a wind check is subject to rapid change.

The tower is there to help.

The wind speed and direction can change rapidly in a very short distance.

Gyroplanes are affected by the winds.

Being near maximum takeoff weight combined with a density altitude or 4,500 feet reduces takeoff and climb performance.

Don’t imagine that because it worked out it was good aviation decision making.

As Frank Borman said;

“A superior pilot uses his superior judgement to avoid situations which require the use of his superior skill.”

I thought it was a candid and valuable list, but by now you have defensively shrunk the "poor aviation decision" to merely the first item on the list: flying in such winds with a passenger.

What I challenged in my post #8 was "With 2000+ hours and being a gyro CFI, why must Vance learn such basic safety precautions "again" at all?"
For me, that mystery remains unsolved.

We've disagreed within this discussion, and I don't see that changing. So, good day.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[eddie]

.

(A vertical descent landing can be made for fun or from necessity (to clear an obstacle or land in a small area).

(Since no necessity was present, I suspect you were grandstanding a bit for your new friend/passenger)


Kolibri are you really so arrogant that you and only you can say what type of landing is considered normal..

And if the type of landing we prefer to do is not one you have deemed normal,then we are showboating

or grandstanding,really !

 

[Vance]

COLOR=#006400]What I challenged in my post #8 was[/COLOR] "With 2000+ hours and being a gyro CFI, why must Vance learn such basic safety precautions "again" at all?"
For me, that mystery remains unsolved.

Regards,
Kolibri

Asked and answered.

I learn things on a higher level every time I fly.

I feel most good pilots do this.

 

[Vance]

A vertical descent landing can be made for fun or from necessity (to clear an obstacle or land in a small area).

Since no necessity was present, I suspect you were grandstanding a bit for your new friend/passenger.
As you admitted, it "was luck it was an elegant landing in those conditions".

Regards,
Kolibri

I love to show off; this was not the reason for the vertical descent.

The reason I made a vertical descent from 20 feet at 30 knots indicated air speed in twenty eight gusting to thirty eight knot wind at VCV is because when the wind changes directions I will not be misaligned with my direction of travel and it allows the gyroplane to point into the wind.

Another advantage is I am less likely to move in and out of turbulence caused by ground features particularly at an unfamiliar airport.

Most gyroplane pilots have experienced a dramatic change in speed and direction of the wind as the end of hangar row is cleared.

I chose thirty knots of indicated air speed because I can leave in considerable power for more rudder authority rather than making the round out nearer the minimum power required where to descend the power has to be well back.

Thirty knots of indicated airspeed resulted in a vertical descent to the ground based on the actual wind at that time and place.

Higher indicated air speed would have given me fewer options.

A typical round out is begun at twenty feet above the ground with fifty knots indicated air speed and terminates at three feet above the ground at five knots with a flare.

I had a very slow descent rate in this particular landing.

 

[Vance]

Vance, this thread is about your flight.

We've disagreed within this discussion, and I don't see that changing. So, good day.

Regards,
Kolibri

I did not expect Kolibri to understand my narrative as written and did not write if for him.

I felt there were things some people could be reminded of and the narrative had value.

I did not expect Kolibri to answer the questions and put something substantive into the discussion.

It appears to me he expects us to take it on faith that he knows how to fly a gyroplane and make aviation decisions.

It appears to me based on his posts there are some large gaps in his understanding of how a gyroplane flies and aviation in general.

I have seen no indication that he understands anything I write.

I am comfortable with that.

I suspect this thread has run its course.

I hope if anyone besides Kolibri is left with questions they will ask them.

 

[Kolibri]

It appears to me he expects us to take it on faith that he knows how to fly a gyroplane and make aviation decisions.

Always a dig from you.

The reason I made a vertical descent from 20 feet at 30 knots indicated air speed in twenty eight gusting to thirty eight knot wind at VCV is because when the wind changes directions I will not be misaligned with my direction of travel and it allows the gyroplane to point into the wind.

Higher indicated air speed would have given me fewer options.

Another advantage is I am less likely to move in and out of turbulence caused by ground features particularly at an unfamiliar airport.

Most gyroplane pilots have experienced a dramatic change in speed and direction of the wind as the end of hangar row is cleared.

Yes, because hangars often cause their own rotors (i.e., separate from mountain wave action).
Those rotors can smack an aircraft right into the runway.
I have experience at two airports in particular that are known for this, with related crashes every year.

Low to the ground and with ample airspeed to penetrate that morass of vortices is the safest way to get to the flare.
From there, smoothly reduce power to flare for a nice landing.
(Most gyros will naturally want to weathervane into the wind, if you keep a light touch on the pedals.)
This is what I was taught, it's what I've successfully performed since 2013, and my gyro CFI heartily concurs.

This is also much more safe than in a vertical descent near the ground if you have an engine out.

And speaking of gyro CFIs, I notice that none of them have posted in defense of your vertical descent into ground turbulence.

You asked for questions; here are two:

Who teaches vertical descents into strong winds which are variable and gusting?
Where is this technique in the PTS?

 

[eddie]

Yes, because hangars often cause their own rotors (i.e., separate from mountain wave action).
Those rotors can smack an aircraft right into the runway.
I have experience at two airports in particular that are known for this, with related crashes every year.

Low to the ground and with ample airspeed to penetrate that morass of vortices is the safest way to get to the flare.
From there, smoothly reduce power to flare for a nice landing.
………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..


Sounds to me that you are talking about fixedwing crashes,normally we talk about gyros on this forum.
And do you really want to flare in a strong wind,good luck with that.
Why would you even want to think about landing where there are rotors caused by buildings,
again we are talking Gyros not fixed wing.

 

[Vance]

Yes, because hangars often cause their own rotors (i.e., separate from mountain wave action).
Those rotors can smack an aircraft right into the runway.
I have experience at two airports in particular that are known for this, with related crashes every year.

Low to the ground and with ample airspeed to penetrate that morass of vortices is the safest way to get to the flare.
From there, smoothly reduce power to flare for a nice landing.
(Most gyros will naturally want to weathervane into the wind, if you keep a light touch on the pedals.)
This is what I was taught, it's what I've successfully performed since 2013, and my gyro CFI heartily concurs.

This is also much more safe than in a vertical descent near the ground if you have an engine out.

And speaking of gyro CFIs, I notice that none of them have posted in defense of your vertical descent into ground turbulence.

You asked for questions; here are two:

Who teaches vertical descents into strong winds which are variable and gusting?
Where is this technique in the PTS?

Again you are confusing a change in airspeed and direction with a down draft from a rotor.

Down drafts from rotors don't go all the way to the ground and will not smack a gyroplane right into the runway.

This is the closest you have come to actually being specific about your landing technique so I will simply say that in my opinion that is a great way to tip over a gyroplane landing in strong gusting winds and leave it at that.

I prefer a steep approach and a slow touch down.

I prefer having some power in to increase the rudder effectiveness during the round out requiring less than minimum power required air speed.

In my opinion the time of the greatest risk landing in gusting winds is near the ground at more than ten knots of ground speed.

I feel the risk decreases as the ground speed decreases.

I have seen a twenty knot head wind turn into a twenty five knot direct cross wind leaving someone making a shallow approach in a lot of trouble.

I regularly teach vertical descents to very low time gyroplane pilots. It is part of my pre-landing syllabus.

From the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook:
HIGH RATE OF DESCENT A gyroplane will descend at a high rate when flown at very low forward airspeeds. This maneuver may be entered intentionally when a steep descent is desired, and can be performed with or without power.

To recover, the nose of the gyroplane must lowered slightly to exchange altitude for an increase in airspeed.

CFIs had better teach vertical descents because it is part of the practical test standards.

HIGH RATES OF DESCENT AND RECOVERY REFERENCE: FAA-H-8083-21; Gyroplane Flight Manual. Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge by explaining the aerodynamic factors and flight situations that may result in high rates of descents, and the procedures used for recovery.
2. Selects an entry altitude that will allow the recoveries to be completed no lower than 600 feet AGL.
3. Establishes a high rate of descent at a minimum airspeed with power below cruise setting.
4. Recognizes high rates of descent and recovers promptly to a best glide airspeed.
5. Recovers by demonstrating proper power management and returns to cruise airspeed.
6. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°.

 

[Kolibri]

Who teaches vertical descents into strong winds which are variable and gusting?
Where is this technique in the PTS?

The context (which I thought obvious) was about landings, not merely high rates of vertical descents at 600+ AGL and then a recovery to cruise speed.

Again you are confusing a change in airspeed and direction with a down draft from a rotor.

No, I am not.
They are two different things, and, as I read your account, both may have been present during your landing at VCV.
You described variable and gusting winds. If those winds blew over hangars, then you could have experienced small rotors as well.

Down drafts from rotors don't go all the way to the ground and will not smack a gyroplane right into the runway.

I think this is your biggest misconception, especially as a CFI.
I've experienced small and localized rotors caused by winds flowing over airport buildings/trees.
They certainly can force a small aircraft to the ground, gyros included, if the pilot is unskilled or inattentive.
This is not merely a fixed-wing issue.

So, I'll ask again with more clarity: who teaches your vertical descent from round-out to flare with little forward speed during strong variable and gusty winds?
It definitely is not in FAA-H-8083-21; Gyroplane Flight Manual, and I've heard no other CFI espouse it.

You've trained with some 33 gyro CFIs, correct?
How many of them taught your landing technique during winds such as 28G38 and variable?

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[PW_Plack]

P.S. Please, folks, it's a landing flare, not "flair".

The landings I've made in winds over 30 knots involved both flare and flair.

 

[Vance]

I have exceeded my willingness to repeat myself.

Your questions have been asked and answered already in this thread.

You are welcome to cling to your misconceptions that down drafts go all the way to the ground and ground speed is an important part of flying Kolibri.

I hope someday you will learn to fly a gyroplane like a gyroplane.

In the meantime it would be nice if you didn't troll my threads because some pilots find value in them.

 

[loftus]

So, I'll ask again with more clarity: who teaches your vertical descent from round-out to flare with little forward speed during strong variable and gusty winds?
It definitely is not in FAA-H-8083-21; Gyroplane Flight Manual, and I've heard no other CFI espouse it.

Kolibri[/COLOR]

I doubt any CFI actually teaches landings in winds of 28G38. Forward speed is really irrelevant as long as groundspeed is greater than 0 and the aircraft is not moving backward across the ground when it touches down. All that really matters is airspeed as Vance indicates and that it is adequate to provide adequate lift of the aircraft and avoid excessive vertical descent speed on contact with the ground. I personally would not fly in these conditions because I am not as skilled as Vance, but I have every confidence that Vance's skill exceeds mine. If I were to imagine my thought process in a situation like this it would be to choose a minimum airspeed that equals my normal airspeed plus half the gust factor as is generally taught in fixed wing training. I would also expect that I might have to make adjustments in my forward speed to account for gusts and changes in winds such as these as I approached the ground. This of course is where Vance's practiced skill would likely make his landing a lot better than mine. I would have no concern if I touched down with minimal or even zero groundspeed, as airspeed is really my only concern. Even in a fixed wing, my only real concern is airspeed not forward speed, and if I flared correctly and touched down with zero forward speed, I would consider that a perfect landing. Vance's skill exceeds many or most gyro pilots, he is practiced, and he knows his aircraft. I think Vance has it right.

 

[Vance]

Thank you Jeffrey, as always you are the voice of reason, knowledge and experience.

 

[Vance]

I had an interesting discussion with a client this morning asking about the importance of ground speed when landing in high gusting winds so I thought it would be useful to try to teach him what I perceive to be the Kolibri ground speed is paramount approach and landing in high gusting winds so I wrote this briefing for the Kolibri method using the scenario based teaching method.

My hope is people reading this realize how completely misguided this is and realize it is written as humor based on Kolibri's posts.

I am trying to restore Kolibri's comedic value.

We want to take advantage of the excellent food at Sothern California Logistics (VCV) and it is time for lunch at El Mirage Dry Lake so you need to get all the information to prepare for the flight.

We check the ATIS with a cell phone and find winds are reported to be 150 degrees at 22kt gusting to 32kts in our high thrust line, linked steering, narrow track no suspension gyroplane and we want to maintain our ground speed or we may get slammed into the runway by the rotors coming off ground obstructions.

You decide we are going to land on runway 21 so we are concerned about exceeding our maximum cross wind component on the 200 foot wide runway even though we don't know what or maximum cross wind component is.

When on the approach to land ground speed in the most important thing so we are going to maintain our no wind ground speed or maybe even pick it up a little to better manage the turbulence.

We typically fly our approach at 50kts indicated air speed so we need to fly our approach at 82kts of indicated airspeed (50kts plus 32kts of gust) so our ground speed doesn't fall below 50kts and we can break through the rotors and turbulence without being slammed into the runway. This will require close to full power.

Practical Test Standards for approach are plus or minus five knots indicated air speed despite ground speed being what is important. We will simply have to do the calculations to maintain our ground speed. Because of the conditions we will use plus ten, minus nothing.

We want to touch down at five knots plus the maximum wind gust so thirty eight knots of indicated air speed.

On approach we receive a wind report that winds are still at 150 degrees and have increased to 28kts gusting to 38kts so we are going to pick up our indicated airspeed six more knots during all the phases of the landing in order to normalize our ground speed. Approach 88kts (101MPH); touch down 43kts (49 MPH) indicated air speed.

We are not concerned that this exceeds our Va speed because we don't know what it is.

This may result in a ground speed of more than 13kts at touch down because the actual wind is blowing 150 degrees at 30kts when we touch down despite the wind check we got from the tower as we started our approach.

During our round out we stay light on the pedals and allow the gyroplane to yaw however it wants and it yaws to 150 degrees, 60 degrees off runway heading. We have a lot of power in so we have good rudder authority.

The gyroplane may try to tip over from the misalignment with the runway and turbulence and we are going to manage that with our higher ground speed and keeping the nose wheel off the runway until we are stopped.

Remember, ground speed is paramount when landing a gyroplane in strong gusting winds.

Turns out the Million Air kitchen is closed on weekends at VCV and I was not successful at restoring Kolibri's comedic value.
.

 

[Kolibri]

I have seen a twenty knot head wind turn into a twenty five knot direct cross wind leaving someone making a shallow approach in a lot of trouble.

But a vertical descent would avoid such trouble in those winds?

You are welcome to cling to your misconceptions that down drafts go all the way to the ground and ground speed is an important part of flying Kolibri.

Vance, any downdraft with sufficient energy to reach the ground, will.
This is not restricted to merely microbursts.
Airport rotors from strong winds flowing over hangars will commonly reach the ground.
Gryoplanes are still aircraft, and not immune from the power of downdrafts, mountain wave action, or small localized rotors.

I've never advocated landing with high ground speed.
That is different from having a modest amount of forward speed between round-out and flare, if conditions warrant such.

An engine-out at 20' during a vertical descent through turbulence would require a very challenging recovery.
Perhaps you will demonstrate to your client and the rest of us how it's done.

Finally your sophomoric attempt at satire only illustrates that your vertical decent landing technique in strong turbulence is less defensible than you imagine.
It has no popular support.
Apparently nobody teaches it, else you'd have mentioned some CFIs who do -- or some would have concurred with you by now.


________

If I were to imagine my thought process in a situation like this it would be to choose a minimum airspeed that equals my normal airspeed plus half the gust factor as is generally taught in fixed wing training.

loftus, I agree. That's all I've been saying.
This allows one to penetrate a block of turbulent air with a margin of safety, and get just above the runway for the flare.

It also facilitates having to reject a landing. A vertical descent to land in turbulence severely compromises that option.


________

The landings I've made in winds over 30 knots involved both flare and flair.

LOL, good one, Paul.

Regards,
Kolibri