Some wind and decision making lessons.

[Vance]

I certainly agree.
However, since the forecasted winds for later in the day were even worse, there was apparently no option of waiting on the ramp after refueling.
Having the gyro stranded there overnight would have been a hassle, and he narrowly avoided that.
Hence, pressure to make the round trip quickly.

I am conservative about making trips, and am wary of external pressures to do so.
In fact, I just rescheduled a commercial flight to pick up my airplane, because my return flying would have been in souring weather.

However, what made VCV different that day was the strong mountain wave rotor, and wind shear was specifically mentioned in the AIRMET.

Regards,
Kolibri

It would not have been difficult to stay there for the night and the FBO offered us a car to use.

Someone could have driven into town from the event and delivered me the next day. I have many friends there that would have been happy to do that.

The strong wind was forecast to begin at 1:00, we had plenty of time. I checked later to see if the forecast had come true.

Wind shear was not specifically mentioned in AIRMET Tango on that day: only that it was in effect.

Some here are not familiar with what AIRMET Tango means so I copy an pasted the definition of AIRMET Tango from Gleim.

It appears to me a more complete explanation of AIRMETs would be helpful to some here so again from Gleim.


AIRMET SERIES 1. There are three AIRMETs: Sierra, Tango, and Zulu. 2. After the first issuance each day, scheduled or unscheduled bulletins are numbered sequentially for easier identification. a. AIRMET Sierra describes IFR conditions and/or extensive mountain obscurations. b. AIRMET Tango describes moderate turbulence; sustained surface winds of 30 knots or greater; and non-convective, low-level wind shear. c. AIRMET Zulu describes moderate icing and provides freezing-level heights.

For an authority to issue an AIRMET, applicable conditions must be widespread. "Widespread" means that the applicable area covers at least 3000 square miles. Because conditions across the forecast period can move across the area, it is possible that only a small portion of the area is affected at any time.

AIRMETs are routinely issued for six-hour periods beginning at 0145Z during Daylight Saving Time and at 0245Z during Standard Time. AIRMETS are also amended as necessary due to changing weather conditions or issuance/cancellation of a SIGMET.

 

[Vance]

Ever heard of adding half the gust factor to one's normal airspeed on final?

Even though you'd have been stuck at VCV just a half hour later?
You barely got out of there, and that's not cutting it too closely?

OK, I've expressed my opinion and made my point. You disagree with it.
Thanks for the polite exchange. Good day.

Yes I have heard of adding half of he gust factor to one's normal airspeed on final.

It is my understanding that it is fixed wing thinking to avoid a stall.

I is not a technique I would recommend for use in a gyroplane for the reasons mentioned above.

If the ATIS had exceeded my wind limit I could have waited in the comfort of Million Air for the conditions to improve.

It would not have been difficult to stay there for the night and the FBO offered us a car to use.

Someone could have driven into town from the event and delivered me the next day.

I have many friends there that would have been happy to do that.

Thank you for your help in bringing out some useful information and dealing with some misconceptions.

 

[Vance]

I have taken from this thread that my mind is in the right place as I wade into a new aircraft class in a new environment. I am slightly obsessing over it. I am not in the optimum situation of moving to a gyrocopter from a FW in my familiar previous "home" location where I knew every spot within 50 miles that caused wind shear and turbulence. I find myself staring at a new area and a new aircraft. My goal is to be much better at reading the conditions of ANY area I venture into. I plan to travel with my gyro. My weather skills are novice at best even though I was trained by Paul Hamilton who authored the video "Weather to Fly". I have so much more to learn.

I appreciate the insights here.

Your welcome Tim.

I think you will do fine with some slight realignment of your fixed wing thinking.

I feel my story is a good example of how forgiving gyroplanes are.

I have landed and departed in 50 kt winds at King City.

Avoiding overconfidence is the key to safe flying in a gyroplane.

It is not that hard to tip them over on the runway if the proper procedures are not followed.

In my opinion your MTO will not be quite as forgiving in strong winds as The Predator.

Avoid exceeding the wind limits in your POH and avoid slips and skids and you should be fine.

Stay light on the pedals.

 

[eddie]

Vance,thanks for catching the fixwing thinking of our safety expert with regards to the gust factors that do not apply to Gyros,if

he lands like that just about all of the runway will be used to land,if he even is able to land

Its important to keep correcting his wrong thinking, someone could have read it as the way to land a gyro in a strong wind

and ended up destroying the machine..

And there was also reducing the "excessive crosswind component"in that much wind there wont be a crosswind as you land directly in the wind.

 

[Kolibri]

Yes I have heard of adding half of he gust factor to one's normal airspeed on final.

It is my understanding that it is fixed wing thinking to avoid a stall.

I is not a technique I would recommend for use in a gyroplane for the reasons mentioned above.

Vance,thanks for catching the fixwing thinking of our safety expert with regards to the gust factors that do not apply to Gyros,
if he lands like that just about all of the runway will be used to land,if he even is able to land

I've several times used my technique to avoid a runway crosswind and instead land on a taxiway directly into 30+ kts wind.
It took only <20 feet of roll-out, nothing excessive. A couple of times I planted it with just inches of roll-out.
(And, btw, I'm not talking about screaming in at 60+kts.)
I never experienced any hint of a possible tip-over.

It would not have occurred to me to drop in with a vertical descent of low airspeed. It seems counterintuitive.
I discussed this today with a renowned gyro CFI of 4000+ hours, and he agrees with me.
He wouldn't use a vertical descent of low airspeed during turbulence, either, and doesn't know anybody who does.

But y'all land however you like.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[eddie]

Well here we go again he left out a important part of the story so it would fit his

explanation better and sound like Vance did not know what he was doing.

The part left out was that after the vertical descent and getting close to the runway power was added to compensate for the turbulence and the strong wind.

This is a standard technique taught by all component instructors,it does however require skill in knowing when to use power

to arrest descent and obtain forward speed to flair for the landing,in this case the power was used just to arrest descent as there was a strong wind

to use for the final touchdown.

 

[Kolibri]

Well here we go again he left out a important part of the story so it would fit his explanation better

The part left out was that after the vertical descent and getting close to the runway power was added to compensate for the turbulence and the strong wind.

I didn't "leave it out" because it was obvious that power must be added to compensate for reduced lift from a dying gust.
I wasn't implying that Vance meant to drop in with no power increase at all.

My point was that during turbulence I prefer to leave in more power for a flatter approach.
That way, when the gust subsides I am already lower (i.e., less distance to drop) and I already have concurrent ample rotor energy.
In a gyro, it is easy to bleed off excess AS and RRPM.

Any controversy about this baffles me, and my gyro CFI.

I've never heard of anybody teaching a vertical descent with low airspeed for a landing during turbulence.

If, however, somebody prefers the "excitement" of having to add lots of power and then flare aggressively to stop the drop, then land Vance's way.

Regards,
Kolibri

P.S. Please, folks, it's a landing flare, not "flair".

 

[Vance]

In my opinion thirty knots during round out and at touch down is high indicated airspeed.

It appears to me there is a lack of understanding about indicated air speed and ground reference.

A vertical descent is a ground reference term and in my opinion not particularly important in this thread.

I feel the indicated airspeed is what is important.

I don't typically touch down at thirty knots indicated air speed in zero wind conditions because I feel thirty knots of ground speed at touch down is asking for trouble in a gyroplane.

In my opinion I touched down with a high indicated airspeed because of conditions. My air speed indicator was still reading over thirty knots after touch down.

The wind check was one five zero degrees at twenty eight knots gusting to thirty eight knots. I was pointed directly into it.

My typical touch down in no wind conditions would have my airspeed indicator sitting on the peg and my GPS (ground reference) reading less than five knots.

The slower I am going in relation to the ground the less likely I am to have a problem with being misaligned with my direction of travel.

I would most assuredly not touch down at thirty knots indicated airspeed in zero wind conditions in an RAF or a Cavalon.

It is little wonder with this level of misunderstanding that so many gyroplanes tip over on landing and people are concerned about hard linked nose wheels.

I feel what we have here is a failure to communicate and a lack of understanding.

I have flown with 33 CFIs and none of them suggested I touch town at 30kts indicated airspeed in no wind conditions in a gyroplane.

 

[Kolibri]

I don't typically touch down at thirty knots indicated air speed in zero wind conditions
because I feel thirty knots of ground speed at touch down is asking for trouble in a gyroplane.

Where on earth did you get the idea that 30kts of ground speed in zero wind conditions was what I meant???

This whole discussion has been about landing into high and gusty winds. Not zero winds.

I would most assuredly not touch down at thirty knots indicated airspeed in zero wind conditions in an RAF or a Cavalon.

Yeah, no kidding. I've never done so myself.

______
From your 30kts of AS (into winds of 30+) and "vertical descent", your approach seemed to me as mostly vertical with little ground speed.
You had no excess rotor energy to manage the loss of lift from the dying gust, and had to react quickly and dramatically to save the landing.

My technique for landing in such conditions would be to come in over the intersection flatter, with maybe 10-15kts more airspeed.
Ground speed thus would have been <15kts, and I'd have rounded out just 2 feet above the taxiway.
The slightly excess lift and ground speed would have been easily dissipated in the flare.
I probably would have held a little power into the landing, as some insurance against sharply reduced wind speed.

Now, in zero wind conditions I have practiced vertical descents.
They are fun, but I would not have done so in winds 28G38. I think it's the wrong technique.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[HighAltitude]

We had a clean thread with good discussions about wind shear, and a link to a FAA seminar on a weather prediction tool that I tuned into today. And now another thread is being ruined to the point NO ONE learns a damn thing! Thanks Kolibri. It is so frustrating that I am going to leave this forum if he isn't removed by the moderator. I am tired of sorting through nonsense to find a few good nuggets of facts. E- mail me when he is gone.

 

[Vance]

I don't agree Tim and I hope you will bear with me repeating a concept I suspect you understand well.

I have listened to many gyroplane pilots who are confused about indicated air airspeed and I feel it is worth expanding on.

I hope there will be some here who will gain a better understanding of the importance of indicated airspeed and how unimportant ground speed is no matter what the speed of the wind.

My hope is they won't get too caught up in the insults.

It is unusual for a fixed wing pilot to be so confused about indicated air speed because they have the stall demon on their shoulder and indicated airspeed is emphasized throughout their training.

Because they fly low and often open; gyroplane pilots tend to get fixated on ground speed; sometimes forgetting the importance of indicated air speed to their detriment.

The requirement for recognition and recovery from low airspeed and a high rate of descent is specifically to address this deficiency.

As I said in my last post; a failure to communicate and I will try to do better.

When a gyroplane flies in the air there is some indicated airspeed where faster or slower will require more power.

It is called the minimum power required speed.

If I want to descend I reduce power or fly at more or less than the minimum power required speed.

How fast the gyroplane is moving over the ground does not affect the minimum power required speed.

Ground speed only becomes relevant during a ground reference maneuver and even then the FAA practical test standard is plus or minus ten knots indicated air speed and plus or minus five knots indicated air speed on approach to land. There is no standard for ground speed.

Turns around a point, S turns over a road, a rectangular course and an accurate touch down are typical ground reference maneuvers.

Kolibri keeps writing about descending at low airspeed.

In my opinion thirty knots at touchdown is not low airspeed to land a gyroplane, it is a high indicated airspeed to touch down and a part of a typical round out.

Wind and vertical descent are ground reference terms and yet Kolibri keeps writing of them as though they had some relevance to landing.

I would always prefer to land a gyroplane as low a ground speed as practical.

Because of the wind (a ground reference term) at VCV I was able to touch down with no roll at all.

I had power in to increase the effectiveness of the rudder because the gusts were not in the same direction as the wind.

My descent to touchdown was very slow and when the indicated air speed reduced it was easy to manage with a burst of power.

Because there was no forward roll there was no way to be misaligned with the direction of travel.

At full power The Predator would climb at anything over twenty five knots of indicated air speed even at a density altitude of forty five hundred feet and near maximum takeoff weight making it very easy to control the rate of descent in a twenty eight knot wind without moving over the ground. This is also known as a vertical descent.

There is no "excitement" when adding a burst of power to manage a loss of indicated air speed.

I do this often to manage a student running out of airspeed before running out of altitude.

The only time I would land fast (ground speed) is with a tail wind (ground reference term).

At Santa Maria they don't use runway one two unless there is a seven knot tail wind component so I have had a lot of practice landing with a tail wind.

I land fast because I loose rudder effectiveness below ten knots and I don't want to use high power to augment the rudder effectiveness.

I land at about twenty knots of ground speed.

Seven knots of tail wind plus ten knots of indicated airspeed with a little margin because at that touch down speed my runway alinement is more important.

These are very important concepts and I feel not understanding them has caused many gyroplane tip overs on landing.

Accident pilots tend to blame it on a linked nose wheel when they land with two much ground speed and tip over.

I apologize to those with reading comprehension for being repetitive.

As a flight instructor I have to find many ways to say the same thing until a client understands this basic concept.

I thought I had been clear in my last post.

I feel based on Kolibri's last response he completely missed the concept I was trying to communicate; that thirty knots indicated air speed is not low indicated airspeed to descend and land in a gyroplane.

Thank you for reminding me indicated airspeed is a difficult concept for some to grasp.

 

[Kolibri]

Kolibri keeps writing about descending at low airspeed.

Uh, no, not quite. My issue has clearly been about vertical descents from 20 feet with little/no airspeed beyond the wind values during turbulence.

Now, had the wind been a steady 30kts (or 38 kts) then a vertical descent with minimum power required speed would have been fun and fine.
We've probably all enjoyed such, as it provides before touchdown a hovering effect like a helicopter. This is a hoot.

However, during strong gusts I feel that the vertical descent technique is not only inappropriate, but overly risky.

In this thread, my posts have always been about the turbulent conditions described of winds being 28G38.
I'm not talking about zero winds, steady winds, or tailwinds.

I am not confused about indicated airspeed vs. ground speed. I have no fixed-wing "stall demon" on my shoulder.

In my opinion thirty knots at touchdown is not low airspeed to land a gyroplane,

I feel based on Kolibri's last response he completely missed the concept I was trying to communicate; that thirty knots indicated air speed is not low indicated airspeed to descend and land in a gyroplane.

I agree . . . when it comes to the actual touchdown against a steady 30kt wind.

However, against 28G38 winds I disagree that merely 30 kts is adequate for approach and roundout.

In turbulence, what I was taught, what I have long used without any issue, and what was just confirmed to me by a 4000+ hour gyro CFI is to
come in flatter (i.e., not dropping in vertically) with enough slightly excess airspeed to insure against sudden altitude loss from dying gusts,
getting quickly to ground effect/rotor wash and using that cushion to protect against loss of lift from suddenly decaying winds,
and from that 2' AGL bleeding off that AS in excess of the winds for a nice flare and practically zero roll-out.

Also, leaving in a bit of power at the end provides more rudder authority when you may need it.

I was not taught, conversely, to effectively autorotate down from 20' AGL during turbulence by using minimum power required speed.
I do not know of any CFI who teaches such a technique.

There is no "excitement" when adding a burst of power to manage a loss of indicated air speed.

According to you, there was:

I slowed to 30kts indicated air speed and made a vertical descent to the ground at the intersection of runway 21 and taxiway Bravo
with a little excitement near the end when the wind speed diminished.

Also, let's be honest, you didn't add a "burst of power to manage a loss of indicated air speed" but to recover from a sudden loss of altitude:

I was making a vertical descent from about 20 feet when the gust went away and dropped us down pretty quickly. I added power and flared aggressively;

Using the proven and common technique of having ground effect/rotor wash cushion against sudden loss of lift during turbulence
-- rather than aggressively reactive power/pitch during a vertical descent -- would have avoided the "excitement".

It would have been safer, too.

This is why I believe the discussion is important, the tantrum of one person aside.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

According to U.S. weather observing practice, gusts are reported when the peak wind speed reaches at least 16 knots and the variation in wind speed between the peaks and lulls is at least 9 knots. The duration of a gust is usually less than 20 seconds.

It is my observation that any time the wind is over 15kts there will likely be turbulence near the ground even if there are no gusts reported.

In The Predator the approach indicated airspeed is fifty knots and I begin my round out (sometimes referred to as a flare) at around 20 feet above the ground.

I typically flare in The Predator at less than five feet above the ground (sometimes referred to as a full flare landing) at less than five knots of airspeed. The air speed indicator in The Predator is no longer indicating at five knots and my focus is outside the aircraft anyway.

From the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook:
"NORMAL LANDING The procedure for a normal landing in a gyroplane is predicated on having a prepared landing surface and no significant obstructions in the immediate area.
After entering a traffic pattern that conforms to established standards for the airport and avoids the flow of fixed wing traffic, a before landing checklist should be reviewed.
The extent of the items on the checklist is dependent on the complexity of the gyroplane, and can include fuel, mixture, carburetor heat, propeller, engine instruments, and a check for traffic. Gyroplanes experience a slight lag between control input and aircraft response.
This lag becomes more apparent during the sensitive maneuvering required for landing, and care must be taken to avoid overcorrecting for deviations from the desired approach path.
After the turn to final, the approach airspeed appropriate for the gyroplane should be established. This speed is normally just below the minimum power required speed for the gyroplane in level flight.
During the approach, maintain this airspeed by making adjustments to the gyroplane's pitch attitude, as necessary.
Power is used to control the descent rate.
Approximately 10 to 20 feet above the runway, begin the flare by gradually increasing back pressure on the cyclic to reduce speed and decrease the rate of descent.
The gyroplane should reach a near-zero rate of descent approximately 1 foot above the runway with the power at idle.
Low airspeed combined with a minimum of propwash over the tail surfaces reduces rudder effectiveness during the flare.
If a yaw moment is encountered, use whatever rudder control is required to maintain the desired heading.
The gyroplane should be kept laterally level and with the longitudinal axis in the direction of ground track.
Landing with sideward motion can damage the landing gear and must be avoided.
In a full-flare landing, attempt to hold the gyroplane just off the runway by steadily increasing back pressure on the cyclic.
This causes the gyroplane to settle slowly to the runway in a slightly nose-high attitude as forward momentum dissipates.
Ground roll for a full-flare landing is typically under 50 feet, and touchdown speed under 20 m.p.h.
If a 20 m.p.h. or greater headwind exists, it may be necessary to decrease the length of the flare and allow the gyroplane to touch down at a slightly higher airspeed to prevent it from rolling backward on landing. After touchdown, rotor r.p.m. decays rather rapidly.
On landings where brakes are required immediately after touchdown, apply them lightly, as the rotor is still carrying much of the weight of the aircraft and too much braking causes the tires to skid."

To convert miles per hour to knots divide by 1.15 and to convert knots to miles per hour multiply by 1.15.

Following the above procedure I would be making a vertical descent as viewed from the ground as soon as I reached twenty eight knots of indicated air speed in my round out (flare).

I described some of the specific control manipulation and reasoning as a part of the narrative based on my experience flying The Predator in the wind.

As a flight instructor I have to find many ways to paraphrase the above instructions as I see where the client is not following the procedure and attempt to adjust his perspective.

I have several copies of the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook in the hangar so I can put it in the hands of a confused client and we can discuss his divergent understanding.

Again from the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook:
"COMMON ERRORS DURING LANDING
1. Failure to establish and maintain a stabilized approach.
2. Improper technique in the use of power.
3. Improper technique during flare or touchdown.
4. Touchdown at too low an airspeed with strong headwinds, causing a rearward roll.
5. Poor directional control after touchdown.
6. Improper use of brakes."

 

[Kolibri]

From the Rotorcraft Flying Handbook for a NORMAL LANDING:

Approximately 10 to 20 feet above the runway, begin the flare by gradually increasing back pressure on the cyclic to reduce speed and decrease the rate of descent.

The gyroplane should reach a near-zero rate of descent approximately 1 foot above the runway with the power at idle.

Ground roll for a full-flare [normal] landing is typically under 50 feet, and touchdown speed under 20 m.p.h.

If a 20 m.p.h. or greater headwind exists, it may be necessary to decrease the length of the flare and allow the gyroplane to touch down at a slightly higher airspeed to prevent it from rolling backward on landing.

This does not match your "vertical descent" from 20 feet. You had little/no forward motion from there.
I.e., instead of descending on a slope, you were dropping nearly straight in. Not a "normal" landing.

My technique seems more in line with the Handbook's.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[eddie]

He says he is discussing the finer points with you,looks to me like he is trying to let everyone know

that he is vastly superior to one and all,and is the final answer to all things Gyro.

He also is constantly referencing a CFI who has 4000 hrs,I know an CFI who has more than 10,000 hrs in a RAF alone.So whats the point

that having more hours makes you smarter than the rest..

there is a video of gyros in Saudi, landing and taking off in strong winds and they are landing vertical,and anyone who thinks strong

winds are without turbulence really needs to get out more.

 

[Vance]

From the rotorcraft flying handbook:
'If a 20 m.p.h. or greater headwind exists, it may be necessary to decrease the length of the flare and allow the gyroplane to touch down at a slightly higher airspeed to prevent it from rolling backward on landing.”
COMMON ERRORS DURING LANDING
1. Failure to establish and maintain a stabilized approach.
2. Improper technique in the use of power.
3. Improper technique during flare or touchdown.
4. Touchdown at too low an airspeed with strong headwinds, causing a rearward roll.
5. Poor directional control after touchdown.
6. Improper use of brakes."

I had a stabilized approach with fifty knots of indicated air speed.

I began my round out and flare at twenty feet.

I had thirty knots of indicated air speed during the flare.

I didn't roll backward.

In my opinion my technique was correct in the use of power.

In my opinion my flare and touch down technique were proper.

I touched down at high indicated airspeed.

In my opinion I managed my directional control well.

I my opinion I used the brakes effectively.

I don't see anything in the rotorcraft flying handbook about speed over the ground.

A Gyroplane landing is done with airspeed not ground speed.

I can't think of another way to say it so I will just let those who are still confused about airspeed compared to ground speed be confused.

If someone has an actual question with a question mark rather than an accusation or condemnation I will do my best to answer it.

In my opinion understanding these concepts I have articulated in this thread is both very basic and very important for gyroplane safety.

 

[Kolibri]

<sigh> OK, one last attempt to explain what I've been saying. I'm hardly "confused about airspeed compared to ground speed."

During turbulence, one will likely experience a sudden and dramatic loss of lift.
If between round-out and flare a sloped approach is used (i.e., "coming in flatter" as I put it), the vertical component of any drop is somewhat spread out horizontally.
This is an easier scenario to correct for with power/pitch than a vertical descent.
It's also safer if one gets involuntarily plunked down.
I've no idea how this is even debatable.

And, let's be honest: Vance got lucky when the wind slacked off when it did at 20' AGL.
Had the wind subsided a few seconds later, when he was at 4-6' AGL his quick reactions probably couldn't have avoided a hard landing.

Once the wind slacked off suddenly and he began to drop from 20', yes, he apparently did everything well and right, and landed without incident.
But, he had unnecessarily made it more difficult for himself by choosing a vertical descent into winds 28G38.
It was not the preferred technique for those conditions. I'm glad that it worked out for him nonetheless.

And, yes, some turbulence is associated with steady strong winds, but the presence of gusts noticeably increases turbulence.
In my opinion, and I'm not alone on this, high sustained winds with strong gusts demand a sloped (not vertical) approach to the full flare, with airspeed about 10kts more than the wind.

But, hey, the next time y'all have 28G38 winds, try both techniques and report back which offered less pucker factor.

 

[Vance]

<sigh> OK, one last attempt to explain what I've been saying. I'm hardly "confused about airspeed compared to ground speed."

During turbulence, one will likely experience a sudden and dramatic loss of lift.
If between round-out and flare a sloped approach is used (i.e., "coming in flatter" as I put it), the vertical component of any drop is somewhat spread out horizontally.
This is an easier scenario to correct for with power/pitch than a vertical descent.
It's also safer if one gets involuntarily plunked down.
I've no idea how this is even debatable.

And, let's be honest: Vance got lucky when the wind slacked off when it did at 20' AGL.
Had the wind subsided a few seconds later, when he was at 4-6' AGL his quick reactions probably couldn't have avoided a hard landing.

Once the wind slacked off suddenly and he began to drop from 20', yes, he apparently did everything well and right, and landed without incident.
But, he had unnecessarily made it more difficult for himself by choosing a vertical descent into winds 28G38.
It was not the preferred technique for those conditions. I'm glad that it worked out for him nonetheless.

And, yes, some turbulence is associated with steady strong winds, but the presence of gusts noticeably increases turbulence.
In my opinion, and I'm not alone on this, high sustained winds with strong gusts demand a sloped (not vertical) approach to the full flare, with airspeed about 10kts more than the wind.

But, hey, the next time y'all have 28G38 winds, try both techniques and report back which offered less pucker factor.

If you weren't confused about airspeed and ground speed you would not be condemning a vertical descent landing, and you would not have written repeatedly that thirty knots is a low airspeed landing Kolibri.

In my opinion landing with thirty knots indicated airspeed is landing with high airspeed not low airspeed.

I did not expect you would learn anything and what I have written is for the benefit of other members of the Rotary Wing Forum.

It is unfortunate your style drives some of them away.

Your last post demonstrates to me you have not learned anything.

The fact that I made a vertical descent was an observation more than a recommendation.

Every landing is different and people need to do the best they can do with their circumstances, experience and aircraft.

I have not experienced a sudden and dramatic loss of lift near the ground in strong gusting conditions.

It is my understanding backed up by my experience; sinking air does not go all the way to the ground except in a collapsing thunderstorm or a microburst; this was neither.

There is no place for the air to go and there is a boundary layer near the ground.

The down draft from the mountain rotor did not go all the way to the ground on takeoff at VCV.

In my opinion in twenty eight knot gusting to thirty eight knot wind; the wind speed may not stay constant resulting in a sudden increase or reduction in air speed.

Worst case if my thirty knots indicated air speed suddenly dropped to twenty knots resulting in more power required to maintain the same rate of descent in The Predator; simply adding power would have brought her down gently which is exactly what I did.

The wind slacked off at five feet above the ground. If it slacked off at 20 feet above the ground I simple would have lowered the nose to regain the airspeed.

It was luck it was an elegant landing in those conditions.

It seems the more I practice the luckier I get.

In my opinion we were nowhere near trouble.

I have allowed clients to make much worse landings with little risk to the aircraft or the people on board.

The Predator has a wide track with good suspension on the nose and the mains with a free castering nose wheel.

She is near centerline thrust, has a generous empennage volume with a tall vertical stabilizer and rudder.

In my opinion she has no significant power-pitch-yaw coupling.

A landing is a dynamic thing, speeds are not constant, conditions are not constant and the pilot in command is manipulating all the controls to have a happy landing.

In my opinion the less ground speed the better and allowing the aircraft to turn into the wind is the safest procedure particularly at an unfamiliar airport.

It did not take great skill and most of my clients with five hours of dual could have handled the landing at VCV in The Predator.

I would not fly or land Kolibri's high thrust line narrow track no suspension RAF in twenty eight knot gusting to thirty eight knot wind and I suspect he wouldn't either.

Perhaps that is in part why he demonstrates such a lack of understanding of wind, air speed and ground speed.

I hope he never finds himself landing in those conditions because in my opinion both the aircraft and the pilot are not up to the task. In my opinion based on what he has written; to reuse the aircraft would require a lot of luck.

I feel as gyroplane pilots we should all try to learn more about weather and how it affects our gyroplane.

A gyroplane is not the same as a fixed wing so the information may be a little harder to find and/or harder to apply.

I always call (1-800) WX-BRIEF to learn as much as I can about weather and how it applies to my flight.

I spend twice the time planning a cross country as I do flying it so if things aren’t working out I have options.

I fly with current charts and a chart supplement.

I have a back up radio.

I have food and water on board.

I have a SPOT personal locator.

I don't fly over wilderness.

 

[eddie]

Vance your right about the narrow geared RAF in a strong wind,even in normal winds (10 to 15) I am always on guard for

tip overs,it takes very little to get one wheel off the ground and it usually happens right when you come to a complete stop,

the rotor speed and lift is still there,and if you relax it could bite you.

And of course in a really strong wind proper rotor management becomes critical.

I think all Gyro's have there own little things to watch for.

 

[Vance]

An additional thought on this landing at VCV in a twenty plus knot wind.

The main reason I landed on the ramp rather than the two hundred foot wide runway was so I could land past the hold short line and spool down at my leisure without tying up the runway.

VCV was not very busy; sending a jet around because someone is slow to get off the runway costs a lot of money.

In my opinion the flight is not over till the rotor has stopped.

In my opinion I am at the greatest risk of tip over with the rotor near flight rpm.

Keeping the disk flat is an important part of spool down in high gusting winds.

As the rotor slows the wind tries to get hold of the advancing blade and run the retreating blade into the tail putting unnecessary loads on the control system so spool down requires focus and finesse.

Managing this during the taxi requires multitasking on a level I am not comfortable with so managing spool down when stopped in more than twenty knot wind is preferable to me.