Some Thoughts on the Rotary Wing Forum.

[Vance]

I have found that some people have a very different view of the value of the Rotary Wing Forum than I do.

For me it is an opportunity to learn from others and to share the things I have learned about gyroplanes.

For me it is a place to share the joys and challenges of gyroplanes.

When people ask legitimate question I enjoy trying to answer them and learn from the process.

I find I learn from defending my opinion and I may change my opinion.

My opinions have changed over the years in part because of things I have learned here.

It is not a game to me and I find the games some people play here counterproductive and unpleasant.

My good friend Stan Foster suggested to me that after two failed attempts at communication there is no point in continuing the discourse and it is just feeding the troll.

If I have already answered a question twice and the “new” question is clearly just a part of their game I see no reason to respond.

If they can’t stay on track I see no reason to continue to respond.

I see no reason to respond to gossip.

There are a few people who I don’t respond to because of my experience with their attitude.

Because of my poor memory and how unimportant their game is to me I sometimes forget.

Some people here make things up faster than I can address them as though it was a counterpoint to what I posted.

If I post a direct quote from the FAA it is exactly that.

It is not my place to interpret it further or defend the FAA’s legal position.

Demanding an answer from me is pointless if I see communication has broken down.

 

[Martin W.]

The (personal) things that NWA said to you were completely out of place .... and what he said is a reflection of himself and his condition ( narcissist) .

A clinical diagnosis would be as follows:

--- Narcissistic personality disorder involves a pattern of self-centered, arrogant thinking and behavior,
--- A lack of empathy and consideration for other people, and an excessive need for admiration.
--- Others often describe people with NPD as cocky, manipulative, selfish, patronizing, and demanding.
--- He will not regret hurting you (not capable)
--- There will be no apologies or remorse, unless you have something he needs , then the (fake) charm returns.

So yes Vance , simply ignore him , none of us can help him.

 

[Illini85]

A very powerful verse for those inclined to seek harmony, from Booker T Washingon, -- "I shall allow no man to belittle my soul by making me hate him."

He's probably glad he passed before the invention of the autogiro

 

[Jazzenjohn]

He's probably glad he passed before the invention of the autogiro

If you read the forum and imagined what a gyro fly-in would be like, you'd probably think it was little more than a cage fight. Not at all the truth. People are pretty good to each other there. I believe the problem is non face to face communication where people are saying things that they wouldn't say if they were talking face to face or saying it in such a way that it can be interpreted as far more harsh than expressed. People sometimes read into comments negative connotations that may not have been meant. These escalate into "Flame wars" and vitriol. The problem is that if they continue, they become very corrosive, ruining the forum for everyone, not just the persons involved.

 

[PJB]

This is a second similar thread and in part the more rational side of the coin got lost in the rantings of someone who is clearly upset.

Here is a, perhaps, more gentle view. JJ is correct posting on a forum is never going to be the same as being face to face, mainly because it would probably end in a kick off based on recent exchanges.

I don't think people really care too much about the accident you had Vance in terms of if you do/do not report. Most probably just glad you walked away and spare a thought for the owner. It can and will happen to anyone, mistakes happen and no reason to think anyone is immune. I'm not, aircraft I've owned have been subject to 2 x AAIB reports. One with a student solo medical incapacitation, one my fault I essentially relaxed with a high hour student who had recently come off an instructor course (don't ask me why he was there, ask the guy who runs the courses....) and we rolled over off the back of some hops.

Could I have blurred the need to report to the AAIB? The first one no because the student died and the aircraft destroyed. The second one, possibly as no flight was intended and such runway exercises are deemed as such but why? Who can learn much from that years later unless its reported? So I reported it for the sake of recording the lessons learned and so on.

I find it hard to believe that an aircraft bent to the point of getting into the prop is not reportable, I wasn't there but then again it is super odd there are no pictures and the people shouting loudest to defend the minimal nature of the damage don't seem to want to say "Here look this is how minimal this thing was damaged.. stick that in your pipe".

Then we come to the legality of the flight. You don't need to come to any table and explain to anyone, unless the FAA give you a tug, but good grief Vance if you can't see how as a flight instructor that in recent past just can't wait to chime in and run people over (and nobody has energy or inclination to trawl through back posts but just last week will do and is illuminating).

The irony is barely believable but in the "Final approach and landing" thread I'm sharing a view with Leigh who I know very well and just highlighting some further snags (who actually agrees with much of what I said btw).

Some posts and views are not necessarily for the experienced guys but in case new pilots / students are reading and its good to share the obvious snags and think from their perspective and then BOOM... along comes Vance. Post 27/28/29 quoting me and essentially telling just how wrong I am and all the reasons for it and then the cherry post 36.

The last spot landing contest I won was at two feet so I can put the aircraft down where I want it.

I am a flight instructor who flies airshows; not an airshow pilot who is also a flight instructor. I fly like I want my clients to fly.

Then in post 38 you try and call me out on the way I fly my final approaches and very sadly because people simply loose the energy to keep replying, keep replying, keep replying to your increasingly marginal issues and points no doubt your final say means you are always right.

We could all if we could be bothered find 100s of similar examples about how or why your point about accidents, insurance, technique, differences training, student hours, dynamics of X or Y aircraft...are always written in this self righteous, you know best, been there, done that... blah. You even have the outright gaul to say my accident numbers on Cavalon were wrong but when challenged had no answer yourself but helpfully added that not all get reported... well no sh1t accidents don't get reported and now we get a glimpse into the mindset of those that don't report.

Do you not have a filter that in the company of people who are as a minimum equally experienced just utterly arrogant and now when you then get questioned about if you'll report the accident, and then further questioned about its legality you are nowhere to be seen until starting another poor me thread.

I'm glad you are OK. I'm sorry the owner is left with some rebuilding. You screwed the pooch because, as you say, you got snagged by not doing the basics (which is possibly the best lesson for us all) and the legality of the flight will be between you and the FAA. I hope in the short term you might be a little more humble and less willing to run everyone and anyones opinion over with your own and perhaps in that regard you posting less is no bad thing.

Edited to correct some poor spelling

 

[GyrOZprey]

Kolibri Vs Vance ....now act2 PB vs Vance ...?????? I detect a trend here!( A new smarty-pants agitator! ?????) Nuff sed!

 

[PJB]

GyroOz / JM, not at all. Seriously I just found the irony of the situation (and the developing situation) too incredible not to comment. Aircraft flown and or owned (not all flown I've owned) are fixed wing off my head usual PA28/32/C172/150/Piper Cub/Eurofighter/DR107 One Design/Xtremeair/Pitts S2/Extra 200/Rockwell commander/Slingsby T67, rotary wing R44/Hughes 369D/Cabri G2, gyro Cavalon, Calidus, Sport, MT03, Cavalon Pro, M16, M24, Cricket... But getting logbooks out is seriously fukking lame in the UK.

It would be nice if when calling me out if the subject of your defence was addressed too. As in I'm doing nothing but stick my head above the ledge to give a view that I think is pretty obvious to anyone who has visited this forum in recent years/months.

 

[PJB]

JM - no offence taken but you asked me a question so perhaps allow me to ask one back. What is your general view on flying aircraft that aren't airworthy?

 

[Vance]

I don't think people really care too much about the accident you had Vance in terms of if you do/do not report. Most probably just glad you walked away and spare a thought for the owner. It can and will happen to anyone, mistakes happen and no reason to think anyone is immune. I'm not, aircraft I've owned have been subject to 2 x AAIB reports. One with a student solo medical incapacitation, one my fault I essentially relaxed with a high hour student who had recently come off an instructor course (don't ask me why he was there, ask the guy who runs the courses....) and we rolled over off the back of some hops.

Could I have blurred the need to report to the AAIB? The first one no because the student died and the aircraft destroyed. The second one, possibly as no flight was intended and such runway exercises are deemed as such but why? Who can learn much from that years later unless its reported? So I reported it for the sake of recording the lessons learned and so on.

I find it hard to believe that an aircraft bent to the point of getting into the prop is not reportable, I wasn't there but then again it is super odd there are no pictures and the people shouting loudest to defend the minimal nature of the damage don't seem to want to say "Here look this is how minimal this thing was damaged.. stick that in your pipe".

Then we come to the legality of the flight. You don't need to come to any table and explain to anyone, unless the FAA give you a tug, but good grief Vance if you can't see how as a flight instructor that in recent past just can't wait to chime in and run people over (and nobody has energy or inclination to trawl through back posts but just last week will do and is illuminating).

The irony is barely believable but in the "Final approach and landing" thread I'm sharing a view with Leigh who I know very well and just highlighting some further snags (who actually agrees with much of what I said btw).

Some posts and views are not necessarily for the experienced guys but in case new pilots / students are reading and its good to share the obvious snags and think from their perspective and then BOOM... along comes Vance. Post 27/28/29 quoting me and essentially telling just how wrong I am and all the reasons for it and then the cherry post 36.

Then in post 38 you try and call me out on the way I fly my final approaches and very sadly because people simply loose the energy to keep replying, keep replying, keep replying to your increasingly marginal issues and points no doubt your final say means you are always right.

We could all if we could be bothered find 100s of similar examples about how or why your point about accidents, insurance, technique, differences training, student hours, dynamics of X or Y aircraft...are always written in this self righteous, you know best, been there, done that... blah. You even have the outright gaul to say my accident numbers on Cavalon were wrong but when challenged had no answer yourself but helpfully added that not all get reported... well no sh1t accidents don't get reported and now we get a glimpse into the mindset of those that don't report.

Do you not have a filter that in the company of people who are as a minimum equally experienced just utterly arrogant and now when you then get questioned about if you'll report the accident, and then further questioned about its legality you are nowhere to be seen until starting another poor me thread.

Edited to correct some poor spelling

Thank you for being a perfect example Phil.

Phil won’t accept an FAA advisory because “I find it hard to believe that an aircraft bent to the point of getting into the prop is not reportable”

I have tried to communicate twice without success.

Phil is unable to stay on track and introduces unrelated evidence as to why the FAA is wrong.

Phil has resentment because he feels I have “called him out”.

I had to ask Google about that one and none of the meanings appeared relevant with perhaps the closest being 4.

4. To challenge one to a fight. In this usage, a noun or pronoun can be used between "call" and "out."

I have no desire or intent to fight with Phil.

Thank you for the perfect example of why I don’t respond to some posts and some posters.

 

[Jazzenjohn]

As I had told frankly to Vance about home building, home builders have no lessons to take from non home builders (in the home building activity), in the same way gyroplane and heli pilots have no lessons or comments to recieve from non heli or gyro pilots .. (or ex heli and gyro pilots of course)

Perhaps it would help to list exactly what you have done under aircraft to help distinguish expertise in the different areas and look at that when evaluating opinions. It would require some self policing to keep people from fluffing their resume.

 

[Tyger]

Phil has resentment because he feels I have “called him out”.

I had to ask Google about that one and none of the meanings appeared relevant with perhaps the closest being 4.

4. To challenge one to a fight. In this usage, a noun or pronoun can be used between "call" and "out."

I have no desire or intent to fight with Phil.

Thank you for the perfect example of why I don’t respond to some posts and some posters.

Vance,
Once again you have entirely misconstrued what someone has actually said. "To call [someone] out", in the sense Phil used it, referred to your saying that he made an obvious error which you then felt the need to publicly correct. You do this to people ALL THE TIME.
It has nothing to do with fighting. Good grief!

Now, to ask again his question, which continues to go unanswered. Had the aircraft that you flew and damaged been issued an airworthiness certificate? Yes or no?

 

[DavePA11]

Unfortunately - the forum needs some moderation... SuperCub.org is probably the best forum for flying since there is a good moderator there to keep it civil. Usually pilots are more supportive of each other. Gyros must bring the bad out in everyone...

 

[Tyger]

I don't know, Dave. I'd take an unmoderated forum before an over-moderated one any day. Sometimes moderators behave like absolute dictators.
My feeling is, if one doesn't like the tone, one always has the option to just quit reading...

 

[JEFF TIPTON]

The gyro in question had been flown by several different individuals during the convention.

I would doubt that the owner would allow anyone to pilot the gyro if it was not airworthy and proper paperwork in order.
As to the FAA online not showing the gyro in question as properly registered one must remember the times we are in. The FAA has not been operating in the Nashville FSDO since the start of March this year. They are operating from home. I would surmise that Oklahoma is operating similarly and who knows how much paperwork is backed up and not processed.

I have been advised from My local FSDO that it will five weeks before they will look at some 337 forms that I submitted for approvals. Anyone’s guess as to how long to process these forms.

 

[BEN S]

I don't have a dog in this fight whatsoever. Let me just say that first off.
I have read these back and forth discussions for sometime with a grin and a bag of popcorn.
(No Wings is trying hard to take pole position, but still I think the DF and Raton wars will be hard to beat, but persistence wins, so keep at it Greg!
Here's my take that surely NO ONE will be interested in.
Phil: Nice flex! The way you adroitly slipped Eurofighter in between the Pipers and Cavalons!
Based on your online persona and questions, you demonstrate the type of CFI I would enjoy training with and learning from.
I have absolutely no difficulty in following your train of thought when describing things. Agree with you wholeheartedly on the statistics regarding the Cavalon from my own interest looking into the subject.
I first noticed an issue when perusing Barnstormers and seeing the huge numbers of Cavalons being sold with very few hours on them. Piqued my interest.
Vance: Glad your not injured in anyway and sorry about the gyro. I gotta say this though, a twist grip throttle? Really? Yeah, not exactly a small change...I will be receiving my 73 Norton here in Guam shortly, and to be honest, I WILL learn to ride it, but after 35 years of almost daily riding, it sort of terrifies me a little. I would NEVER jump on it and take it for a veterans ride with 200 other bikers without practicing somewhere safe and slow to get used to the different controls.
Having said that, I am somewhat dismayed that you seemingly once again (you remember the marathon flying to give rides) did not make the best ADM.
This is not a condemnation, certainly I have destroyed my fair share of gyro bits becoming the official Sportcopter Crash Test Dummy and even a borrowed gyro once (sorry Dave) and as JM said anyone who flys a bunch WILL bungle stuff, but pretending that you don't "understand" Phil when he asks you a direct question about those ADMs seems, I dunno...like a cop out? (Cop out...to ditch or evade)
It's a legitimate question if the rig was Airworthy, not about the paperwork bullshit, but if that wasn't part of the prestart check, what OTHER things were overlooked in the exuberance of testing a new rig?
I'd say it's time to take a round turn (navy expression, it means to increase efforts) on HOW you got to a point to make the decisions you made and not worry so much about WHAT decisions you made.
Otherwise you will never correct the underlying cause of your predicament.

Trust me folks I know of what I speak of here....
Some decisions you don't get a second chance to evaluate.

 

[JETLAG03]

Maybe flying is a little like driving a car/motorbike ... no-one likes or is willing to accepts criticism and every negative comment and must be deflected and defended at all costs.

Modern life has probably made us all less likely to admit and accept responsibility for our error and omissions, maybe a part of our blame culture and over jealous legal eagles (JM please take that comment as intended, a reflection of society and not you personally).

I mentioned on another posting that in my humble opinion, one cannot improve ones own standing in life/society by try to ruin or stamp down the standing of another.

I have learnt a great deal from this forum, and now I am in the air (hooray) with my Deluc (pipster) I hope in the future to be able to share my learning, experiences and joy.

Autogire/gyrocopter forums are not unique in having members eager to bait/taunt/troll.

Off to try and better balance my rotors, have a good day and fly safely.... oh ..... and try play nicely together.

phil

 

[Tyger]

The gyro in question had been flown by several different individuals during the convention.

I would doubt that the owner would allow anyone to pilot the gyro if it was not airworthy and proper paperwork in order.
As to the FAA online not showing the gyro in question as properly registered one must remember the times we are in. The FAA has not been operating in the Nashville FSDO since the start of March this year. They are operating from home. I would surmise that Oklahoma is operating similarly and who knows how much paperwork is backed up and not processed.

I have been advised from My local FSDO that it will five weeks before they will look at some 337 forms that I submitted for approvals. Anyone’s guess as to how long to process these forms.

OK, that all makes sense about why the airworthiness might not yet be showing up in the online FAA records. But that's a bit irrelevant, isn't it?
Why won't anyone who was actually there (and perhaps flown it) say affirmatively that it had passed an airworthiness inspection and that they had seen its certificate?? Surely that's part of any pre-flight checklist on a machine you are going to be flying for the first time. The silence is deafening.

 

[GyroRon]

I can break it down and make it really easy to understand for all...

1. If your popular on this forum... be that, you post a lot, have a high post count, your well known in the gyro community, your well-liked ( by a good majority at least .... you become a high profile person here. Being a high profile person here, you are going to have many people that will have your back and will defend you no matter what you do... And you will have haters who will look for any possible mistake you make to try to bring you down.

2. Vance is a high profile person here on the forum and in the gyro community.

3. I do not know if the gyro in question was or was not legal.

4. What I do know is, most folks really don't care if a gyro is legal or not. As stated above, many other people flew this same gyro at the same event. Do you hear anyone asking who else flew it, so they can " Be in trouble " with the FAA as well? No... because like I said, generally no one really cares if a gyro is legal or not. They only care now, because someone who is considered " High Profile " bent it.

5. Many gyros are built with only a few inches of room between the top of the keel and the prop tips. And in almost any keel first landing, the keel WILL BEND PERIOD. It might only bend a fraction of a inch, or it might bend a full inch, but it will bent for sure. Typically it bends and bends back... flex might be a better word to describe what it does. Land it hard enough, it is totally capable of bending or flexing far enough to get into the prop. It is not an uncommon thing to have this happen.



So take it for what its worth, but the bottom line, in my opinion, is this was a simple piloting error, that anyone could have made, especially since this particular gyro has an unusual throttle set up.

It is also my opinion, that if most gyro pilots had been at a fly in and seen several other people flying this particular gyro, if a flight in the gyro was offered to you, you would just accept it and go fly. In other words, for example, had I been there and was offered to fly this gyro, the last thing in the world I would have checked before flying it, was is this gyro " airworthy " as in does it have valid registration or AW certificate. And I feel that most people would have not questioned or cared to check into the paperwork before flying it. In the 10+ years I was very active in gyros, and being at all the major gyro fly-ins on the east side of the USA for over 10 years, I never once asked to see paperwork before flying someones gyro, and never once did I see anyone else ask to see paperwork before flying someone else's gyro. Legally yes I should have asked to see paperwork... I know that. But just like how some folks will build a lightweight gyro and claim it's a ultralight ( when it really weighs closer to 350lbs not under 254 lbs ) most folks just simple don't care.


Vance is under attach from NWA simply because NWA is a unstable person, someone most of us suspect has a drinking problem and gets himself lit up and comes onto the forum and embarrassed himself. He is attacking vance because vance is high profile.... simple as that.

 

[Tyger]

Well, at least you are honest in saying you don't care about legalities and are perfectly happy to flout them. That's the salient point of everything you just wrote.
I guess the question then is, is that really the attitude of "most folks"??

 

[BEN S]

I'd say that pretty well sums it up Ron. Like I said earlier, "It's a legitimate question if the rig was Airworthy, not about the paperwork bullshit"

A piece of paper doesn't make my rig any more or any less "Airworthy" it's a piece of paper. But whether a strange gyro is airworthy or not should MOST definitely be determined before flying.