Solar T-62 turbine

akoschier

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Arnie,

DN stands for diameter in milimetres of inner race times RPM which is a figure of merit for bearings where at higher RPM's the centrifugal loading of the balls or rollers causes hertzian stresses in the outer race which significantly reduce the load carrying potential of the bearing.
In highly advanced high speed bearings designers now use silicon nitride (ceramic) rolling elements (balls or rollers) which because of the lower density oif ceramics reduce those stresses and permit higher loading than would be available otherwise.
The guy in England who makes model jet and turfofan engines and drone engines (Hewit) uses them. They run at 60- 180000 RPM
The repeated cyclic contact pressure of the ball or roller rolling over the outer race causes fatigue damage and breaking out of grains in the structure of the outer race which is the beginning of the end in a bearing life. The same is valid for the rolling element itself.
And as for the bearing cost- some whiles back (3 years) Alturdyne who bought the comercial rights to the Soilar T62 after they went belly up were selling advanced longer life bearings for 650$.
They no longer do that and want you to send the power head in for overhaul.
But there seem to be other ways.
avk
 

Jtravis1

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Sep 14, 2006
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Location
Charlotte NC
Does K&N make a filter for that?

I have not seen a filter for the t-62....though when I had my ship, I was trying to figure out a way to make one.

But here is a barrier type filter I just got to put on my 500. I am super excited about it. It's construction looks a lot like a K&N.

Some 500's have no filters at all. Just a small screen. My current ship has a first generation barrier type filter. It is made out of a fiber type washable filter sandwiched in a fiberglass screen. It is very restrictive though.

The new filter is said to lower TOT (turbine outlet temp) as much as 15 deg C. That is quite a bit. At the same time, it has over 99% efficiency. I have a C18 in my ship which temp is usually the limiting factor before torque, so a 15deg drop will be very nice.

I land off airport most of the time, so filtration was very important to me. Often the ground is disurbed (construction sites) and dust goes everywhere when I land.

The only bad news......the cost. The filter retails for over $16,000.00. Yes that is not a type-o. I was lucky to get a GREAT deal on one and picked it for for $5000.00 new in the box. I got it from a operator who had purchased it for their ship and then the helicopter went for an unexpected swim in the ocean:eek:.... They never had a chance to install it. I would have never paid $16,000.00 for one, but $5000.00 was a good deal considering the cost of ingesting foreign material and a $50,000.00 overhaul.

I am sure you could make something that would work on the solar for a few hundered dollars. It would not be a bad idea with the low mount on the turbine.
 

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akoschier

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lynnfield
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helicycle
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Inlet filter for T62

Inlet filter for T62

Don't count on an inlet filter to do anything positive for engine performance or cycle temperature.
All it will do eliminate/reduce erosion of the centrifugal compressor/diffusor.
Turbine engines- specifically low pressure cycle engines like the T62 are very sensitive to pressure losses, strongest negative effect has an inlet pressure loss which acts the same way on the cycle as a loss in compressor efficiency- 1% is worth about 4% in power.
Whatever you do try to minimize ilet losses.
If you are worried about stone ingestion try to build a large crossection duct and take on the air from as high as possible over the ground.
The higher up- the smalle the possible particle the engine can swallow.
avk
 

scottessex

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central, ga
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The centrifugal turbines sure are a whole lot simpler than the axial flow turbines.
 

barnstorm2

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Stan,

I was thinking of you and your heli today.

I am working in Indianapolis this week and I stopped by Gary Goldsberry's to pick up a transformer he gave me for my Jacob's Ladder project.

Here are some photos of a little project I noticed...

Solar%20t62%20Turbine%20Redrive%20Prop%20gyroplane.jpg


Solar%20t62%20Turbine%20Redrive%20Prop%20gyroplane%20(10).jpg
 

barnstorm2

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On the way back to the hotel I saw this guy on the highway and immeadiatly thought "that is my kind of cargo!"

.
Solar%20t62%20Turbine%20Redrive%20Prop%20gyroplane%20(12).jpg



Solar%20t62%20Turbine%20Redrive%20Prop%20gyroplane%20(13).jpg


Solar%20t62%20Turbine%20Redrive%20Prop%20gyroplane%20(14).jpg
 

Rick Whittridge

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Gary had that engine on his Air Command 147 and was flown several hours but had problems with the prop. It turned out to that the variable pitch prop that he had custom made would not depitch correctly. With only a 70% to 100% throttle range the prop has to work perfectly to be managable on the ground & in the air! I admire him for trying this engine & it is still a posibility if he can find a good working prop. He pulled this engine off & went with a Subaru instead.
 

HobbyCAD

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Hervey Bay, QLD, Australia
Hi There StanFoster and Akoschier,

I have 3 surplus T-62T-32-2 turbines, that came out of Alturdyne GPU's. They were ex-military stock, found in an old obsolete parts warehouse. The best thing about them, is that the one with the most hours, has 11 hrs on it !!! I'm now going to use them for a heli project I'm starting.

I would like to make sure my versions are the 60kW versions. Looking in the manual, they seem to be. My turbine nozzle is P/N 100635-0.

Do I keep them mounted in the large gearbox housing they come with, or has someone designed one that will work as a lighter unit. I have a damaged 4th engine and gearbox set, the storemen tried to dissassemble the turbine, for curiosity sake, and damaged some of the threaded inserts in the turbine housing. I was thinking to experiment a bit, use the existing gearsets in the gearbox, use the reduction gearset, as well as the fuelpump gear, and dump the rest. I'm sure one can machine a lighter gearbox unit. The original one sure is bulky.

I've been running the one unit on a testbed, using the Airpax FS1141 Speed Monitor to control the startup. It is either off, or on and RPM governored with that unit. I've also experimented with placing 2 fuel control valves, after the fuel pressure sensor govenor, in the fuelline. For start-up, I'll restrict the fuel, to achieve a ground idle, with no drive to the rotors. I'll be able to switch to a flight idle setting to get the rotors spinning, and then a full power setting, with RPM governing, using the Airpax Speed Monitor. This is basically how the French Alouette helicopter idle modes work, by simply restricting fuelflow. My units don't have the Fuel Control Torque Motor and a Fuel Control Assembly with throttle arm on it. I have an adjustable pre-set and then wirelocked Fuel Control Assembly, P/N 114672-0. If needed to change to the Throttle Arm version, where can I get one of those?

What are they using with the HeliCycle turbines, to govern the power? I also want to install a centrifical clutch, rather than the slipping beltdrives.

Let me know if you can confirm I have the 60kW 90Hp versions.

Regards,

Francois
 
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Aviomania

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Stan...

I have not seem your post earlier.. but that pictures you posted in the beginning are off an ultrasport here in CYPRUS. most probably are some of the pics that me or Giorgos took of Platon (the owner and the one who adapted the engine on the ultrasport) testing the engine.

He invested a lot of time and money but he overcame all problems and now he has a trouble free set up.

He has logged 120 hours on the setup and the engine is grate. Maybe i will post a video of him flying it. HE HAS DESIGNED THE GEARBOX, WITH THE CLUTCH. the electronics are designed according to his specs and he has them manufactured in GERMANY. He stocks engines, gearboxes and electronicks.... which he can supply. He just finished another ultrasport for somebody else.

His design is specifically for the ultrasport thought. the CG does not change with his conversion which is grate. no need to cut the frame or any other modifications. it is almost a bolt on conversion. no problems with harmonics as well.

For more details on the engine, gearbox, electronics.. i will have to ask for his permission.

He is a very good Friend and a grate man which I enjoy spending time with as well as helping him out some times. now i have to finish the final instrument panel for the new ultrasport. The original HIRTH engine of that ultrasport is on my 2 seat Gyro.

BY THE WAY.... That mini 500 in the other picture is in his hangar but it has the rotax 582, NOT A TURBINE. it is excellently built and tuned by a very good engineer from south Africa. I think is up for sale.
 
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tyc

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... they weren't designed to run at for so long.
... Then the cost to repair them is over $10,000, ...

How long were they designed to run for? An hour? Two hours? Three?

As for that repair figure you mentioned, I'd heard that before, slightly less than or about the same as the cost as to overhaul a Lycoming 360.

tyc
 

All_In

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Hey thanks for the pictures of the turbine I wanted to see the inside of it too!!!
 

Turbo-Tom

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Hi, my name is Thomas Baumgart and I have been (and still am) collaborating closely with Platon from Cyprus regarding his T-62T-32 engine installation in the Ultrasport helicopter. Basically, I have designed and built the electronic control systems for him and helped with rigging up and adjusting the engine. Also, the new gearbox/clutch assembly installed on the later ships was the result of a collaboration of Platon, another friend of ours and me.

Most of the photos you find posted by Stan Foster on the first pages of this thread, have been copied from my web site, covering the modification of Platon`s own Ultrasport which can be considered as a prototype. You can find the full story here:

http://www.turbinemuseum.de/Gasturbines/Solar_T-62/solar_t-62.html

Another few photos have been copied from this page of a fellow turbine enthusiast:

http://www.jcmco.com/gallery/Solar-T62

In general, I haven`t got objections against people using material from my web site, but at least I expect them to publish the source of the material as well and not to let it appear to be their own stuff. Sorry Stan if this offends you but a short note published in your postings would have kept me from signing in here and sending this contribution.

Have fun with your turbine conversions and always play it safe!

All the best,
Thomas
 

scandtours

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This guy also had a turbine in his Mini-500.....

One more pic Stan with Nicolas and Platon discussing jet engines at Platons hangar. We have sent a video to youtube with Platon flying his 496 Ultra jet helicopter for more than a year and a half ago.
You can see a new jet engine (to the right) ready to be intalled on another496.
A Mini 500 at the background.
Giorgos
 

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akoschier

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helicycle
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Francois,

I wish I could help you out but I'm currently in Europe and all my manuals are in the US.
For a starter you should get yourself a T62 overhaul manual. There are various places which sell copies - you should be able to Google them. Keep in mind there is a multitude of T62 models- get the GPU model ( -32) if this is what you have which I doubt based on your controller description
You can also contact Alturdyne in San Diego - however I found them not very accommodating.
The manual has the throat dimensions and ID for the turbine nozzle in it for both the 30 and 60 KW engine and a ton of info you should have if you start playing with this engine.
This nozzle is the part which makes a 30 KW out of a 60 KW.
Keep in mind that this is really a 160 SHP engine which is being operated at part load.
The 60 KW is electrical net output which has all the system inefficiencies in it plus its rated at I believe 8000 ft and 125 deg ambient.
There are two guys flying with the smaller nozzle and report nearly 20% better SFC.
Nearly everybody who uses this engine for a helo application makes his own gearbox using the gears (planetary and fuelpump/starter) from the GPU box since the box is quite heavy. Using the gears takes care of the touchy part of the speedreducer - besides those gears are also of flight weight design.
Schramm made his own gearbox using the high speed set from the GPU box and a final output spur gear set he designed which was selected to be also useable for a turboprop.
On the Helicycle the Hydro control unit for all but two ships is the unit from the GPU where a torquemotor operates the main fuel valve and the torquemotor is onthe Helicycle controlled by a industrial electronic control modified to be EMR insensitive.
Two ships use a mechanical control like the APU versions of this engine (Blackhawk) use. This control is less precise in scheduling RPM but appears to be more fuel efficient.
There is a guy on Cyprus who uses an electronic controller designed by a guy in Germany ( Baumgart) and his own gearbox design. He published a nice article on this effort you should be able to Google as well with a video an good pictures of the disassembled engine as well as a main fuel valve repair after he broke the throttle lever which appears to be very fragile
I'll be back in the US towards the end of March - if you still need comments send me a note then.
avk
 

Turbo-Tom

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Stan -

okay, understood and accepted. But please also understand that setting up a website like mine takes lots of time and effort, and when I just by coincidence stumble accross a thread like this one with many of my photos, and not the faintest hint from where they originate, I at least get some ambiguous feelings... So much for that ;-)

Akoschier -

it won`t be neccessary to purchase the manuals, go here to Shawn Mack`s site http://www.shawnmack.com/jetexec , click "Solar Manuals" and download what you need.

Giorgos -

I don`t know if we ever met at Platon`s hangar, having visited Platon probably five or six times, it may well be possible. By the way, the engine shown in your photo is already equipped with the new ECU and the new bevel gearbox with the coaxial centrifugal clutch arrangement. That`s the latest version that is also installed in the Thailand-based 496 and the one that recently had been returned to its owner in Germany after Platon converted it to turbine.

Just for your interest, here`s some information on my most recent governor design for the Solar T-62T-32 engine:

My system still is a combination of an analogue computer for governing the engine, combined with a PIC MCU for sequencing and control functions. I decided to arrange it this way because and analog system works without any increments and "granularity" and performs complex mathematical operations at a much higher speed than a digital systems, yet at lower accuracy.

What is much more important than fancy functions and features is that an ECU works reliably under any circumstances. In my new system, I addressed this by adding a backup battery system inherently to the ECU circuitry. The ECU itself contains a powerful step-up converter so the engine can be operated from a single 12V battery, provided an aftermarket 12V starter is fitted. In case of a failure of the on-board power supply as well as of part of the ECU circuitry (step-up converter), the engine will keep on running on the back-up battery (e.g. 12V 10Ah lead-acid or lead-gel motorcycle battery) without any glitch or even noticing by the pilot (except that the "alarm" indicator will light up). I also did some reasoning regarding the sensitive RPM preset pot and interconnection wires. I finally completely did without a mechanical pot but put an electronic one right where it belongs, namely inside the ECU enclosure right on the PCB... It is controlled via an RPM Up/Down trim switch which only produces digital inputs and is very insensitive to glitches or radio interference. All the input that are referenced to external ground, are insulated from the ECU systems by optocouplers and additionally protected by RFI filtering.

Last but not least, the whole circuitry is placed on a single PCB and is mostly surface mount which makes it less sensitive to vibration. This board has been designed to fit an off-the-shelf (Hammond) cast aluminium enclosure and can be hermetically sealed, provided a proper (MIL style) connector is used.

Here's a list of features:

- specifically designed for the Solar T-62T-32 engines
- controls all the engine systems and monitors its functions
- includes governor (RPM stability appr. +-0.5% no-load / full-load), startup sequencer, safety monitoring systems
- internal data logging of the last 30 minutes of operation as well as total run time and startup cycle counter, data can be retrieved by a special RS232 interconnection adapter onto a PC
- post-shutdown status indicator to show the reason for a "red light" (if any) during engine operation
- optional 12V back-up battery can be attached so the engine will be kept running if main power fails, backup battery is recharged during normal operation
- operates from 12V to 28V, maximum current consumption during startup 25A, during normal operation appr. 5A
- internal, electronic RPM preset pot to eliminate long, RFI-sensitive and safety-critical wires as well as failure-prone mechanical pots
- control panel is equipped with three back-lit LCDs to show preset RPM percentage, actual engine RPM percentage and EGT in degrees celsius (can be modified to display farenheit), one momentary "start engine" switch and an ultrabright two-colour LED indicator to indicate engine satus
- connections for rpm trim up, rpm trim down and "kill engine" momentary switches
- up to four auxiliary inputs for pressure or temperature switches or chip detectors
- RFI insensitive on all external connections
- hermetically sealed aluminium enclosure
- ECUs will be pre-adjusted to work directly, without additional adjustment, on any stock T-62T-32 engine with an aftermarket 12V starter (original starters will also work if 24V power system or external 24V supply is used)


...so far, Im still not sure if I will actually have a small batch commercially manufactured and will offer them to fellow turbine enthusiasts. Generally, there doesn`t seem to be a lot of request for these units...

Finally, I attached a few photos from the installation in Thailand on a 496 last year.

Cheers, Thomas
 

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