So what gyro would you buy if you were just starting out and knew what you know now?

I think I would rather a turbo engine in a two seat at anything much higher than sea level.

wolfy
Just to note: 912 is quite different to 912S (or ULS). The ULS has higher compression and power (100hp v 80), and requires higher octane fuel. A lot of new guys miss this distinction.
The 914 is basically a turbocharged original (80hp) 912. That brings its hp up to 100, with 115hp available for 5 minutes, max.
Obviously, turbocharging also helps maintain power at altitude.
To add another note, the 912S and ULS are not the same. Essentially the same but slightly different on paper and the S is the certified version of ULS.
912UL 80hp, 912A certified
914UL, 914F certified

wolfy
 
And don't forget that, on warm days, the density altitude is likely to be well over the field elevation.
But as far as cruising goes, I think most folks fly gyroplanes fairly low (AGL), compared to airplanes anyway, so I imagine you'd be fine, east of the mountains.
A "warm" day in Denver is anything over about 40 degrees F (the standard atmosphere temp at that elevation). To get a feel for this in practice, the closest airport to you is Centennial (KAPA, 5885 ft) and you can get their weather robot AWOS by calling 1 (720)873-2799. In the remarks at the end of the broadcast they often include the density altitude, so you can check it out at various times of day and see how high it gets.

Down the road a bit at CO15, with field elevation 7040, I can't remember a density altitude under 8300 and it is often well above 9000. You can check their AWOS at 1 (303)648-3479.

Climb performance degrades quickly as you get closer to ceiling and that reduces safety margins.
 
I had a 912ULS (i.e. the normally-aspirated 100 hp Rotax 4-stroke) tandem Dominator. It had a 28-foot rotor in place of the standard 27, since its original owner lived in the Rockies. I kept it as light as reasonably possible.

Climb was OK, but not great, with passengers in the 200-plus-pound range, at near-sea-level summer conditions. I would expect quite an anemic climb at Denver.

Anemic climb worries me. I'd get the turbo for Denver.
 
If I can follow up on higher altitude machines, what is the consensus if only one pilot were in a 912 uls machine at Denver altitudes. Not ideal but it is available. I could do all tandem work at lower altitudes. Just a thought.
It seems like he's only actually considering flying without passengers in some 912ULS machine he has his eye on.
 
Find a two place dominator. cost less for training and soloing will be a breeze. then buy you a Gyro Technic. flies like a dominator but aint as ugly. a real work of art! you wont want to fly more than an hour or so. something about the frequency of the vibrations gets on humans nerves after an hour. most fun you can have in the air i believe
 
Im just now getting involved in this thread.... So here is my two cents.

I started gyro flying with a totally homemade, Drop keel Bensen with a direct drive subaru EA81. The gyro was kind of junky, was nothing to look at, it was marginally powered, and was great at nothing. It was also cheap though... Paid like 4 grand for the gyro, and just had to purchase blades ( it didn't come with blades ) so I was into the gyro for about $5500 by the time I got it airworthy.

That gyro was GREAT for my first gyro. Didn't have too much power for me to get in trouble with, and it taught me a lot about managing energy. I enjoyed every minute of flight in that gyro. I have ZERO regrets of that being my first gyro.

I replaced that gyro with a Dominator single place powered by a Rotax 582 after about a year and half later, and yeah..... The Dominator was like going from owning and driving a crappy economy car to now owning and driving sports car. It was worlds better in performance, speed, comfort, and sportiness. And it was a gyro I was proud to own.

Do I have regrets that I didn't just pony up the money ( I think I paid like 10 grand, maybe 12? ) for that Dominator in the beginning versus the 55 hundred dollar junker I started with???? Absolutely not.

And since that time ( got started in gyros in 2001 ).... I have flown just about everything there is out there.... Gyrobees, Bensen's, Dominators, Aircommands, Sportcopters, Little wing, etc... etc... etc... And what I can tell you is this, They all fly the same! Some have better tails than others, some have better suspension than others, some have better control authority than others, and so on, but they ALL FLY THE SAME!

To narrow it down and say a Sportcopter is better than this or that is FALSE. Same for saying a Gyro Technic or Dominator or Aircommand or whatever else is the best thing out there, that would be FALSE! Every gyro has its merits.

Me personally I do think Dominators offer the most for the money... But a dominator isn't " BETTER " than a Sportcopter or Gyrotechnic or many other brands if price is not a factor. Same goes for any argument that for example a Sportcopter is the best and so on.

I would just decide what your comfortable spending, and then keep a eye out for what that amount will buy and get the best machine you can find in that price point. If your not going to build a kit yourself, then your location and how far your willing to drive will be a factor too, because you might find a killer deal on a gyro listed in Maine, but might not want to drive to Maine to get it, where you might find a decent gyro in Texas or Kansas that isn't quite as good of a deal as the one in Maine but its within your budget and within a reasonable drive to fetch it.

Just post it here, or PM a few people here that you feel like you can trust for input that can help you know what your looking at when you find a used bird. I have had people send me pictures of gyros they wanted to buy and looking at pictures I could see stuff that sent up Red Flags, things the potential buyer had no idea was a potential problem. I have also had people send me pictures of stuff for sale and I told them to JUMP on it, cause it was a killer deal and they better not let someone else buy it out from under them. You just want to make sure whatever you pick out is in good shape, doesn't have any funny business going on, and is priced appropriately ( which is important so you can resell it without much loss if you decide later you want a different gyro )

This hobby is like any other Hobby. Your first gyro, your first mountain bike, your first Rifle, your first airplane, your first boat, your first motorcycle.... Almost ALWAYS is not going to be your last. Don't overthink it.

Your better off not spending a ton on your first gyro anyways, cause you might not even end up liking gyros... and you will also likely NOT carry insurance on a gyro and being a new gyro pilot there is possibility of a screw up and a tip over or hard landing and damaging the gyro, and with no insurance do you want to total out a 8 thousand dollar gyro or a 48 thousand dollar gyro? ............... Do you have kids that drive? Did you buy them a super nice fancy car when they turned 16 or did you buy them something with a few scrapes bumps and bruises already cause you expect they will probably have some minor fender benders? It's kind of the same mentality.

I don't know you though. You could be loaded, and to spend 40 grand on a gyro is nothing. If that's the case, go for it.
 
No shock I am going to second a Sportcopter. Either the Vortex or Lightning depending on D.A. at your location and pilot weight.
Next I would look at the Dominators but only if flying off pavement.
A used Butterfly might be an option and you could probably find an old Snowbird to fix up.
Go for a flight in Eric's Two seater. I learned to fly in it and love that rig.
I will give you one BIG piece of advice as a noob starting out in Gyros, do not get enticed by the myriad of RAF 2000's that seem to be in like new condition with no horizontal stabilizers, there are a whole lot of them out there and some really awesome prices. but you don't know what you don't know and by the time you buy it and get it home and start rebuilding it, that's when you find out to truly make it a safe beginner aircraft you need a bunch of not cheap upgrades.
Best advice is to get training, then get more training. You will learn what you like or don't possibly. If you find a single for sale ask on here if anyone knows about that make and model BEFORE you buy it....just saw another typical post today....."Hi, new here, just bought a so and so, how do I proceed?" The purchase should be the LAST part of the equation.
I am curious about "Dominators but only if flying off pavement" ,grass strips are part of their heritage. Ernie flew from a grass strip. I flew from grass for over a decade which included a few riverbed take offs and landings. Scott Essex flies from a grass runway. What caused you to offer that caveat?
 
The long spindly leg of the nose wheel is much easier to bend if your wheel hits a bump or chuck hole.
And the "duck walk" can be rather pronounced.
A "grass strip" to me infers a manicured grass covered runway.
A lot of the Sportcopters can be flown off the desert floor or cow pastures a d are used for mustering cattle in the middle of no where.
This is just my opinion and not meant to slight your choice in any way.
 
The long spindly leg of the nose wheel is much easier to bend if your wheel hits a bump or chuck hole.
And the "duck walk" can be rather pronounced.
A "grass strip" to me infers a manicured grass covered runway.
A lot of the Sportcopters can be flown off the desert floor or cow pastures a d are used for mustering cattle in the middle of no where.
This is just my opinion and not meant to slight your choice in any way.
Ben my friend, I do consider you my friend, you are misinformed about a couple of things. First and foremost the nose gear may look spindly it however is not. The down tube coming out of the keel to the nose gear is so thick I used to joke with Dad that he was using expended rifle barrels. That part of the gear would tear out of the aluminum before it would ever break. I have seen only a few of the lower part break. Usually during a very hard landing where other things break as well, never during normal operation.

A duck walk usually only happens on pavement. This is because the side wall of the tire catches and compresses the gear causing the gear to unload and go to the other wheel from the pilot over reacting. It goes back and fourth and if not caught quickly you will go over. The cure is to land straight. On grass there is enough give that in the same situation the wheels just scoot along the grass and don’t compress or rebound.

The Dominator was designed and built to operate off of an unimproved cow pasture. Dad had the space but not the money to put in a runway at the time. He decided to build a gyro that would operate on the 1300 foot strip we had. It was very rough. You couldn’t drive a truck over it more than about 5mph without driving your head into the ceiling.

Looks can be deceiving. I would be willing to bet if I still had it I could take off and land anywhere you could. With my first machine I flew off of Dad’s strip everyday for about 2.5 years. I hated flying to Wauchula because I hated pavement.
 
Having flown a reasonable variety of both single and two seaters knowing what I know now the GT-VX1 and VX2 are both single seat gyros that I would unhesitatingly choose.

My first single was the Bensen, nearly all off tarmac, few times on grass which was unpleasantly bumpy even though the ground was quite smooth, but the wheels were quite small.

Have now flown the GT-VX2 onto short grass at Mankato and quite long grass at La Sueur and pleasantly surprised at how it handled that. Have yet to fly off grass but do not anticipate any problems.
 
To address the last two posts....

Dominators will NOT duck walk, or at least be very hard to duck walk them, if you have firm shocks on the main gears. Dominators came from " the factory " with air shocks. If inflated to where there is not much give to them it is hard to " duck walk " them on pavement. If you inflate them to where they are cushy, and you land in a drift or in a crab you can potentially duck walk them. In over 20 years of flying gyros and having flown somewhere north of 30+ different dominators I have never duck walked one.

Gyrotechic machines are real nice. They fly very well, and are very well engineered and constructed. There is little to be critical of them. They would make for a excellent pick if someone was considering one for their first or 10th gyro. My only gripe with them and it isn't a big gripe, is they AREN'T cheap. It is probably just inflation, and I have no idea what other similar gyros cost new today, But as I recall the machine I flew at Carolinas Barnstormers event a year or two ago, a single place model powered with a Rotax 582, I believe I was told it is a 50 thousand dollar machine. To me that is a ton of money for a simple aluminum frame open machine. 10 years ago, a Dominator with a 582 with pod and windshield, and essentially factory built, might have cost close to 30 grand.... Heck back in the 2005-2010 timeframe a factory built Dominator without pod and windshield and with a 503 rotax would have cost 15-18 grand.
 
Mike, of course were friends. And just because we disagree has nothing to do with that.
My observations arent just based on how it looks, I have flown a Dom or two.
I have been to many flyins.
I will grant you the yellow one I saw (cant remeber the owner) who bent his front landing gear, it was not the leg that bent,but it was bent backwards. Wasn't even all that hard of a landing.
The Duck walk I witnessed was a friend of Doug S in gront of us on takeoff when I visited him and flew with them both (Indiana?)
There was some uneven paving at the end of the runway and on takeoff, his friend infront of us in a Dom and us in the Xenon, his friend started duck walking so bad I thought he might hit his blades.
I also had a friend buy a Dom with a Subaru engine on it in Yuma, his rig ran off the end of the dirt runway, into some creosote bushes and hit a praire dog hole, his nose wheel bent back a bit too, but that could have happened on any rig.
All I was saying (way back when I made that post) is that there are other designs that lend themselves to rough terrain better IN MY OPINION (did I get that right Vance?)
The low slung types don't have the CLT the Dom does, but they are all compromises.
I DO know a lot of the Dom guys went away from the airshocks. I can only guess why.
I am not saying you can't fly a Dominator off an unimproved lot, ut physics is physics and that CLT nose strut is one seriously long lever....
Seen a few with bicycle wheels up front as well...might rollove bumps better,I dunno.
 
Mike, of course were friends. And just because we disagree has nothing to do with that.
My observations arent just based on how it looks, I have flown a Dom or two.
I have been to many flyins.
I will grant you the yellow one I saw (cant remeber the owner) who bent his front landing gear, it was not the leg that bent,but it was bent backwards. Wasn't even all that hard of a landing.
The Duck walk I witnessed was a friend of Doug S in gront of us on takeoff when I visited him and flew with them both (Indiana?)
There was some uneven paving at the end of the runway and on takeoff, his friend infront of us in a Dom and us in the Xenon, his friend started duck walking so bad I thought he might hit his blades.
I also had a friend buy a Dom with a Subaru engine on it in Yuma, his rig ran off the end of the dirt runway, into some creosote bushes and hit a praire dog hole, his nose wheel bent back a bit too, but that could have happened on any rig.
All I was saying (way back when I made that post) is that there are other designs that lend themselves to rough terrain better IN MY OPINION (did I get that right Vance?)
The low slung types don't have the CLT the Dom does, but they are all compromises.
I DO know a lot of the Dom guys went away from the airshocks. I can only guess why.
I am not saying you can't fly a Dominator off an unimproved lot, ut physics is physics and that CLT nose strut is one seriously long lever....
Seen a few with bicycle wheels up front as well...might rollove bumps better,I dunno.
Well I met I think I may have met Doug? Did he have a Subaru powered Dom as well? The fella I met came in from Ohio with Doug Smith. When he landed he set the nose wheel down and began to shimmy violently. When he shut down I went over and introduced myself with two 7/16 wrenches in my hand. I said would you mind if I fix your nose gear. He said no why what’s wrong with it. I showed him how to tighten the shimmy dampener and he was elated. The rest of the fly in he thanked me every time he saw me. I will give you this Ben you got one up on me. I have never flown a Sport Copter.
 
My only gripe with them and it isn't a big gripe, is they AREN'T cheap. It is probably just inflation, and I have no idea what other similar gyros cost new today,
Don't disagree.

Ron, I always remember getting your very kind advice at Bensen Days on the Hornet we were building. You took time and were very helpful to a pair of complete newbies.

The Hornet was Don Shoebridge's drop keel version of Ralph Taggarts GyroBee originally designed as an ultralight...I think you had just made 'GyRonimo' a 'plump' ultralight, that Jon eventually bought.

Well the reason I went for the Hornet was that I was assured this was going to be 'cheap'. Plans built, just few bits of aluminium, some bolts and engine prop and Rotor.

Well the 503 from Lockwood was around 5K, Warp drive prop, 1K, Dragon Wing Rotors, 2K, exhaust, 1K... after the special coating. Black Max wheels and disc brakes, quad gauge, altimeter, ASI compass , seat belts, Rotor Head, that very light...the lightest...prerotator from Nicolas...accepted that it was a prototype, tried to cope with the numerous problems it had, the mistake we made building the bin of shame, the price just kept rising. I stopped keeping tabs went it went over 17K.

Loved it, flew and handled beautifully, then there was a job loss followed by a divorce, money became an issue.. The gyro was parted out and bits went for a pittance. I'll be prepared to bet your gyro was built for a fraction of that but you were savvy, experienced, knew the ropes, and flew for a fraction of what the inexperienced and ignorant pay.

The kits are not cheap, but knowing how quality bits and pieces cost much, and that the design was the result of some years of work and a number of iterations...and that I value my life, I feel that it is money very well spent.
 
Well I met I think I may have met Doug? Did he have a Subaru powered Dom as well? The fella I met came in from Ohio with Doug Smith. When he landed he set the nose wheel down and began to shimmy violently. When he shut down I went over and introduced myself with two 7/16 wrenches in my hand. I said would you mind if I fix your nose gear. He said no why what’s wrong with it. I showed him how to tighten the shimmy dampener and he was elated. The rest of the fly in he thanked me every time he saw me. I will give you this Ben you got one up on me. I have never flown a Sport Copter.
Well my biggest surprise when I flew with Jeff S. In his dual Dom was just how identical it flew in the air to the two seat Sportcopter.
Hell he's pretty light, it felt just like my Vortex.
I saw a comment from someone that in the air they all feel about the same. I would say of all the rigs I have flown, the only one that really felt different was Mark Shooks Xenon.
Looked and felt like a school bus....
I do not remeber the gents name, but I think that may have been him.
Also there was a Carl at San Manuel that had modded the nose wheel assembly if I recall...its been over a decade and I can't remember what day of the week it is usually.
I never liked the idea of climbing up into them...and although I didnt get to fly it, I liked the design of the Sousa (sp?) Bandit a guy had at El Mirage.
Again all I am saying is if all things being equal in the air....the ground handling can be better suited in some machines more then others.
A low slung wide stanced rig naturally will outperform ON THE GROUND a high cog machine...
Suspension is another topic altogther.
Dune buggies are low and wide, you dont see many double decker busses off road.
 
Well my biggest surprise when I flew with Jeff S. In his dual Dom was just how identical it flew in the air to the two seat Sportcopter.
Hell he's pretty light, it felt just like my Vortex.
I saw a comment from someone that in the air they all feel about the same. I would say of all the rigs I have flown, the only one that really felt different was Mark Shooks Xenon.
Looked and felt like a school bus....
I do not remeber the gents name, but I think that may have been him.
Also there was a Carl at San Manuel that had modded the nose wheel assembly if I recall...its been over a decade and I can't remember what day of the week it is usually.
I never liked the idea of climbing up into them...and although I didnt get to fly it, I liked the design of the Sousa (sp?) Bandit a guy had at El Mirage.
Again all I am saying is if all things being equal in the air....the ground handling can be better suited in some machines more then others.
A low slung wide stanced rig naturally will outperform ON THE GROUND a high cog machine...
Suspension is another topic altogther.
Dune buggies are low and wide, you dont see many double decker busses off road.
A gyro is not a road racer. It’s a flying machine.
 
If only you could see the condscending smirk of resignation on my face as I read this....
Yesssss, I am aware.
Bwahahaha ;)
 
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