Skyrunner Coaxial helicoper

Zigge

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Sep 28, 2009
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sweden
Many thanks for your advice.

At first i will have my craft in a jigg so that it cant tip over or come in any type of bad situation.

And second my friend is a heli instructor so I will get a few hints...

But again, many thanks for your concerne
 

wolves200

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May 17, 2009
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Malmö
Hey Pier;

Long time no talk to you, I can see that you have been very busy; I will come over to Jönköping with the club plane if you have time for a little fly around; whenever the weather allows, I know we just got out of a good summer, but STILL would like to see your progress in person; by the way my technical advise about your machine is: the swedish flag in front need to be bigger, otherwise it won´t fly correctly :) :)

Nice engines by the way!

Talk to you later!
Regards
Dimi3
 

Zigge

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sweden
Hi Dimitri

It would be great if you came to Jonkoping, just send me an message or phone me if you still have my number.

Then I can show you my new workshop and all the progress since last time.

Are you flying in your own airplane? I must see it live!! of not I probably go down south before newyear.
 

animal

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Is this http://www.phoenix-rotorcraft.com/skyblazer.htm
the same as Vortech? http://www.vortechonline.com/specials/skyblazr_orig.htm

Or does Vortech just sell the same craft as Phoenix...
Phoenix bought out the design rights for the Nolan Brother Helicopter that, but will only be selling a 2 seat version they are working on. the Prototype is the one for sale from Vortech.

here are pics of it at the Phoenix Rotorcraft shop.

Call Anthony at 919 340-0038, Tell him Animal sent ya.

he does have some extra parts and and can make what ever you need.
 

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Zigge

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Thanks, nice pictures
I am looking for rotorblades, perhaps he can sell a set to me...
Any ide what chord these blade have?
I will give him a call
 

animal

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Thanks, nice pictures
I am looking for rotorblades, perhaps he can sell a set to me...
Any ide what chord these blade have?
I will give him a call
they are 4 3/4" chord and 9/16" think not includeing the top spacer strip that forms to give you a flat surface.

here is an end view.

they also have an nose insert,not pictured.

he has blades with larger chords that I am sure he could cut to what ever length you need.

Stay tuned to see what is in the Works. I will give you a hint, it will have the body from the UFO gyroplane installed on it and 2 165 h.p. engines. and of course Coaxial rotor system. will tell more soon.
 

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Zigge

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Now you got me confused?
The chord og the alu coloured blades must be more than 4 3/4" ? you mean the blue blades? But what are they used for?
Perhaps I have a brain slide at the moment :)
 

animal

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Now you got me confused?
The chord og the alu coloured blades must be more than 4 3/4" ? you mean the blue blades? But what are they used for?
Perhaps I have a brain slide at the moment :)
blue and red blades are Tail rotor blades the 2 red ones at far end of table are 3 1/2"" chord. blue blades are 2/ 3/4" chord.

the long blades are seconds of the blades used on the skyblazer and are 4 3/4" chord. he can get you a set up to 8" chord.


sadly the TR blades are to short for me to use with my stock TR hub on my commuter. they are only 18" each and I need 20" blades.

Give Anthony a call, maybe he can cut you some to a custom length.
 
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Zigge

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Thanks I will

Work is going slow, I am waiting for some rubber motor mounts, so its a lot of coffe drinking in the shop :)
 

Jens

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Phoenix bought out the design rights for the Nolan Brother Helicopter that, but will only be selling a 2 seat version they are working on...
Great that the Nolan concept is surviving.
I would use the concept with 2 "low cost high performing" go-cart or paramotor engines. And use it as hovercopter - low and slow :peace:
 

vertigo

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Aug 23, 2010
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Melbourne
Hi Zigge,

I had some similar thoughts on rotor blades, why use large chord on all four blades ? this will only increase the drag area and power required to move them. Should the blades be shorter than a two blade helicopter because there are four ? etc etc and it looks like you will get answers soon from Anthony.

I came to the conclusion that the chord would be less for the co-axial due to blade solidity / disc ratio and shared load. Large size chord width allows deeper cross section which seems necessary to keep long blades intact and not folding up with a heavy helicopter. Share the load with more blades and the individual blade section does not have so much lift work.

I also came to conclusion that blade length would correspondingly become less, although the reason is somewhat vague. After studying many co-axials these points started to stand out as being common aspects. Alas, the mathematics of the intricacies to define precisely what is required is beyond my ability.

Another consideration with co-axial is the un-equal work that each rotor performs and how to balance the subsequent torque.

The air deflection from the vertical by the upper blade action effectively raises the air entry speed to the lower blade. Should the lower blade be steeper pitch ? should it be a different length ? longer ? so it works in some fresh air ?

Should the upper rotor be short and strong with full chord width and the lower rotor have a "flybar" hub extension and fly in an outer annulus to the upper rotor ? both rotors having same or similar disc area ? and/or partially share some disc area ?

Many questions to ponder, I am very interested to know your thoughts on these and Anthony's as well as others.

The only piece of info I can add is from US Govt. sponsored research which came to advise the optimum separation between rotors is 17.5% of the diameter and should not be less than 12% or exceed 20%.

The fellow who built the Revolution helicopters, Fenner, now has a business making composite blades from moulds which may be twisted during the setting phase. LH and RH rotation are available as are a few different lengths all revolving around the sizes suitable for light helis.

Also, as there are four blades and the load is shared, it opens up scope to investigate suitability of fabricated blades from lighter proven single rotor helicopters such as AW-95 and Furia.

**Jens, ! we have the same conceptual thoughts re kart engines and co-axial helicopters : ) although it does not need to be low and too slow.

vertigo
 

Zigge

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sweden
Veritigo:

I have not yet focused 100% on the blades, but one thought was opposite yours -to use larger chord and a little shorter blades, the bigger chord will give more lift at a lower RPM and that makes less drag on the blades, but also gives less stress on the axels and hubs... the risk of vibrations and the forces involved in those becomes smaller
and a lower pitch will give a fraction of autorotation, so the altitude loss if one motor dies will be not as great as with higher pitch (teoreticly) I am not saying that it will have autorotation capability.

But this is just thoughts.

In my case the uper and lower disk can be manually adjusted so that the lower disk can pitch more due to the higher wind speed put upon it, but that is a adjustment to make before I make fixed pitch hubs

as I said I have not loked in th this 100% yet.

In a few days I will get my CNC-controlled milling machine, then work can start again
 

NoWingsAttached

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I'll bet counter-rotating rotors produce an exeptionally smooth ride, correct?
 

Jens

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Hi Zigge,
Me too are interested in more info.
Right now it is details on your gearbox – dimensions, weight, your considerations about it and etc..
If you will reveal a bit more it would be much appreciated.


Like to ad:
With your gearbox – or similar – we get a fascinating clean installation.
Normally I don’t like double engines, but here we really get more safety for the added complexity.
Look forward to see how it looks on your machine.
 
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Zigge

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Sep 28, 2009
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Location
sweden
Well not much happening on the building front, but then I have time to learn how to use mu CNC-mill...


When I got things going I wont have to spend time with my hat in my hand and asking for help, not when it comes to smaller part thats it...

When I get my rubber parts then i can put things together and see what length other parts need to be, and perhaps then I cab make the last parts for the gearbox, that will be exiting to se how it runs
Regarding the question about how coaxial rotors run smoth or not i am not tha man to answer -I havent got a clue! :)
nerver been in one of those...
 

Wirbelwind

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Nov 24, 2010
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Location
Hilzingen
one question to the coaxial rotors and the pitch, concerning to the threads here in the forum the lower rotor needs to be more pitched because of the wind from the upper rotor.
my question how much more is this and is this a linear rate or non linear ?
 

SKYHAWG

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Dec 16, 2010
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earth
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In the process of finishing my own design.
Wirbelwind, The downwash or (inflow) from the upper rotor to the lower rotor has to be balanced between both upper and lower rotors. If it is not balanced there can be a induced rotation of the airframe. Without having the inflow balanced accordingly between both rotors you would need to counter this with the vertical tail rudder and you also would have poor neutral yaw stability in hover. The lower rotor should have more pitch then the upper rotor. There should be about a 1/2 Degree to 1 degrees difference in pitch of the rotorblades between the upper and lower counter-rotating rotors. With that being said keep in mind that it depends a lot on your your design there are other factors that someone would have have to know before calculating the pitch difference between both rotors.
 
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