Should we spend $13,000 of your money to fix PRA's runway & taxi ways

All_In

Gold Supporter
We now have about 60K of your money as surplus in our bank accounts but before we spend any on the airport we need to learn our members wishes.

Should PRA spend $13,000 of your money to fix the runway and taxi way?

This is a very time sensitive vote the contractor is leaving town with the equipment and the bid will go up.
1st Bid from contractor in town was $42,000, this new bid is $20,000 to fix the cracks and resurface the runway and taxi ways.
Members have donated about $7,000 so we would like to spend $13,000 of your money.
We will continue requesting donations to pay for it so it may be paid back to us.
If you would like to donate here is the link: https://www.gofundme.com/resurface-p...ic-runway-fund
To vote:
1) Go to www.PRA.org and log in. You will be taken to the members only page.
2) Click the Green button that says " I'm a current PRA member and I'm currently signed in give me POST access to PRA's Ask the Experts Forum. "
3) Now your logged into our Forum Click the "What New" Tab it will show you everything posted in order for days. It should be the 1st thread at the top that says:
" Should we spend your money on repairing the Airports runway?"

Or vote by email:
Please vote YES or NO

Need your PRA #
email to [email protected].
 
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HighAltitude

in transition
I think only local pilots who use the runway can answer that question. My dream would be to see a complete makeover of the PRA website and link to this forum from our PRA site. Having two forums is not effective IMHO. The PRA forum isn't used much at all. The PRA site has a few dead links and is written in some very old software. We need to have it written so that a mobile friendly version is available automatically. I had the my business site done a couple of years ago for around $1000 as I recall.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the runway conversation...
 

GyrOZprey

Aussie in Kansas.
Last year I found the Mentone runway to be in very ordinary shape with a lot of roughness .... and I have a nice bump-absorbing nose wheel gyro ..... the hard-coupled gyros must have been shaken to pieces! ...the runway repairs have needed doing for some years ... each year it gets worse & will be more expensive down the road! I would vote to get it done NOW! ...... I know the convention is a one week a year affair and a small faithful group come often .... plus some newbies ... I have encouraged quite a few to come to Mentone to see all the different gyros on display & get demo flights in the various offerings with CFI's representing different brands for sale!
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
HighAltitude;n1134508 said:
I think only local pilots who use the runway can answer that question. My dream would be to see a complete makeover of the PRA website and link to this forum from our PRA site. Having two forums is not effective IMHO. The PRA forum isn't used much at all. The PRA site has a few dead links and is written in some very old software. We need to have it written so that a mobile friendly version is available automatically. I had the my business site done a couple of years ago for around $1000 as I recall.

Sorry didn't mean to hijack the runway conversation...
That is why we are asking the members if they wish to spend the money, not all of them come to the convention. It may take 3 or 4 years getting donations at this rate. However we also keep the airport open all year to the public making the world a little better place for all pilots and the BOD and most members like that.

Also we agree with you about the web site that was before I was on the BOD but I think we paid about 10K for that piece of crap but he went bankrupt and would not give us the source code. It's been a nightmare for me just to keep it running.

The good news is I've rewritten a new web-site and hope it is up by the convention. Solving that problem it would be done now if I did not run the PRA office full time.

What I will ask the BOD to vote on next as real member benefits to use our new profitability/ money on the following:

1) create and on-line ground school for gyro's on our web-site. Cost about 10K. This will grow the grassroots.

2) Next to make flying gyro the cheapest way to get any pilot license.

When we have another $100K, which will not take long, I will ask them to buy a two place trainer that will put in an LLC holding company with chapters being issued shares of stock.

Each time a chapter has 3 or 4 new student pilots we will chase the sun around the country and send it to them at no cost to them for insurance or anything except for fuel and oil.

We will spend money on radio ads on sport channels advertising your CHAPTER for new members and the cheapest way to get your license leaving out it in a gyroplane and bate and switch them if we can for the cheaper price. This will grow the chapters grass roots. This will also make the training class larger and more profit for instructors for students who cannot afford paying $150.00 and hour for the aircraft so many more can afford to join us and live life to the fullest with our help.

We will ask local instructors to teach at a discounted rate so we do not take any income away from them and no wear & tear, or risk of damage to their aircraft. The reduced price should get the instructors 5 or ten time the students when we advertiser it for 60 days before the gyro shows up with that cheap of a price.
 
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All_In

Gold Supporter
As to our forum I have mixed feelings. Our site is so much easy to find what new. You only have to click the Whats new tab much like our owl forum here.
However if I adtertize it and let non-members post, I fear it will kill this forum. So I've been dragging my feet announcing that anyone may join our forum now if you send me your contact info.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Jazzenjohn;n1134523 said:
I think the sooner it gets resurfaced, the less expensive it will be in the end. As the cracks appear, they get filled with water and when they freeze in the winter the damage gets worse and harder and more expensive to fix. I'd say fix it now. I'll donate to https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.gofundme.com/resurface-p...ic-runway-fund&h=ATOkJSf_a9M97VS56uNPg5P23BY70DhfCcuS7_FkL3lU3PIlosWv4uaBJNg3zXjSpFb7jvSocKwdn_7qe6C6hgCGpkNQ87clzkl-jMh3i0list-6HdIl9v1_FB8JzR3RhgXvhsCdZG9svvic7O89GWmIzD1eQmu6
You are a wise man and your observations are correct.
 

GyroRon

Former Gyro know it all
Im no longer a PRA member, but I say to spend the money and fix it. As long as the PRA owns the airport, the PRA needs to maintain that airport. 13 grand is not alot of money for fixing a runway in the grand scheme of things
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
PS:
The ad only has to be something like this.
Get your sport or private pilots licenses for only $50.00 an hour including the aircraft. Join "Name of Chapter here" one of Popular Rotorcraft Association chapters, an non-profit charity which explain the cheap price the aircraft is donated for free as the chapters are stockholders. This is for real PRA trying to make the world a little more like heaven on earth. Come fly with us.

That is just an example I can do much better than this with some real thought when we have the aircraft.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
GyroRon;n1134526 said:
Im no longer a PRA member, but I say to spend the money and fix it. As long as the PRA owns the airport, the PRA needs to maintain that airport. 13 grand is not alot of money for fixing a runway in the grand scheme of things
Make sense to the BOD, only it's not our money and some may hate that we own the airport, so our members are the boss we all just work here.
It the money were for the online ground school we would just make it happen as that is for the entire world benefit.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Jazzenjohn;n1134528 said:
John, I think the training stuff deserves to have its own thread. I think this one should stay on the Runway topic.
Yes you are correct. Only seems many do not know how profitable we have made the PRA and what we are really doing so that needs to be explained as we are not using the money for the airport unless members want it.
So members and non-members need to learn we are all about new members benefits and PRA is going to soon be making a real difference in the world.
Which has been my dream and now PRA is finally structured for financial success the dream is almost here..

So now that the questions have been answered lets keep it on the runway repair.
 

HighAltitude

in transition
The runway repair is a no-brainer at the cost quoted.

Regarding the idea on how to get more people up in gyros:
The plan to purchase a PRA gyro for training is probably not the way to go. Based on my research here, transporting a gyro has pitfalls. Instead of asking instructors to discount their cost and fly a gyro that has been transported all over, why not just use the $100k to subsidize the training? Every CFI already owns a trainer. We need students, not trainer gyros. A coupon for $100 per hour would get a lot of people up in the air quickly. One hundred grand would get 100 pilots 10 hours of training each. Adding 100 pilots to our ranks would be HUGE. I am starting my training next week. I don't need the subsidy but I am sure that others would jump on it and take a flight. It is also a win-win on the safety side. A CFI would simply submit the coupon and proof of training to get reimbursed from PRA.

John, contact me off line regarding the new website. I would like to help.

Tim
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
HighAltitude;n1134531 said:
The runway repair is a no-brainer at the cost quoted.

Regarding the idea on how to get more people up in gyros:
The plan to purchase a PRA gyro for training is probably not the way to go. Based on my research here, transporting a gyro has pitfalls. Instead of asking instructors to discount their cost and fly a gyro that has been transported all over, why not just use the $100k to subsidize the training? Every CFI already owns a trainer. We need students, not trainer gyros. A coupon for $100 per hour would get a lot of people up in the air quickly. One hundred grand would get 100 pilots 10 hours of training each. Adding 100 pilots to our ranks would be HUGE. I am starting my training next week. I don't need the subsidy but I am sure that others would jump on it and take a flight. It is also a win-win on the safety side. A CFI would simply submit the coupon and proof of training to get reimbursed from PRA.

John, contact me off line regarding the new website. I would like to help.

Tim
Oops seems like I've move my own thread off topic. But as most know I never mind when you do that to my threads, more like hanger talk.
100K/ $150 per hour = only pay for 666.666 hours. If we pay for only 20 hours for each pilot that means we can only train 33 new pilots with the same $100K.
If I buy each chapter their own gyroplane then we can train a chapter instructor and they can train all year round with many new CFI's being trained and the CFI will not have to buy/own a gyroplane. The new CFI's can then earn the money to buy their own gyroplane.

By owning the aircraft which is the most costly charge we can train hundreds for $50 per hour each. Year after year for at least 7 years with only the insurance and maintenance cost to PRA.

As soon as I get back to the office I'll contact you about the web-site. U-Rock Tim.
 
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HighAltitude

in transition
It might be wise to start another topic regarding training. I was suggesting a $100 per hour credit, not free training. I am also only suggesting subsidizing the first 10 hours. If you give away lessons you will attract the wrong crowd. If you provide endless hours, the motivation to improve skills is lessened. A subsidy would require the student to put some skin in the game and pay the CFI their full rate. Even using your example and plan, 33 new pilots would be a shot in the arm. I don't like the legal pitfalls that go along with the PRA being in the training business or owning a gyro. Sorry, I was a business owner before I retired and everyone is sue happy in the US. I am a defendant in a suit involving a leaking exterior door seal in a home. I am named as a defendant even though I was the electrical contractor! The homeowners are suing any trade who set foot on the site. (lake front $5 million dollar house so you can imagine how spoiled rotten the owner is) Totally ridiculous and the judge refuses to remove all non related trades from the action.

I hope the PRA is ready for the can of worms that will be opened the minute the club owns a gyro.

Respectfully, been there and done that.
 

Gyro28866

David McCutchen
1st Bid from contractor in town was $42,000, this new bid is $20,000 to fix the cracks and resurface the runway and taxi ways
$20K seems mighty cheap to completely resurface the runway and taxiway. However, if we have the funds available, I say "getter done". The price of repairs will only increase.
Thinking outside the box a little; as we are a 501C3 Not for Profit. With a bit of creative accounting. Could the Contractor give us a bid of $50K and we pay $20K and the Contractor be issued a Tax Credit for $30K???
I guess, I am asking if there is a legal way to create a incentive for the contractor?
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
PS:
It also takes care of another major problem. Because all PRA and chapter members are co-owners they can solo our gyro's and the chapters can rent then out at below cost say $50.00 or $25.00 PRA will set the rate for non instruction time in our aircraft and create revenue for the chapters and new members have something to fly until they can buy there own. The only rule will be that instruction in our aircraft is FREE and they have to build 100 hours in type before they can carry a passenger.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Gyro28866;n1134535 said:
$20K seems mighty cheap to completely resurface the runway and taxiway. However, if we have the funds available, I say "getter done". The price of repairs will only increase.
Thinking outside the box a little; as we are a 501C3 Not for Profit. With a bit of creative accounting. Could the Contractor give us a bid of $50K and we pay $20K and the Contractor be issued a Tax Credit for $30K???
I guess, I am asking if there is a legal way to create a incentive for the contractor?
I was worried about the difference in price too, but Brent assure me it will be repaired so it will be smooth and stop the damage from getting worse each years because of the open cracks and water freezing during the winter.

No the accounting if they give us a bill for $50K but we only pay them $20K, the net is still the same $20K so they do not pay taxes on the $50 because that's not what they received. What we used to do was pay them 50K and they donate back $30K to PAR, but that illegal now and they only would get back they same tax rate % of the 30K if 20% tax rate that means they are paying us $23K our of their pocket. But that used to work because we could give them the entire 30K so it wasn't their money and just left the tax deduction for their benefit. Oh I miss the good old days.
 
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All_In

Gold Supporter
HighAltitude;n1134534 said:
It might be wise to start another topic regarding training. I was suggesting a $100 per hour credit, not free training. I am also only suggesting subsidizing the first 10 hours. If you give away lessons you will attract the wrong crowd. If you provide endless hours, the motivation to improve skills is lessened. A subsidy would require the student to put some skin in the game and pay the CFI their full rate. Even using your example and plan, 33 new pilots would be a shot in the arm. I don't like the legal pitfalls that go along with the PRA being in the training business or owning a gyro. Sorry, I was a business owner before I retired and everyone is sue happy in the US. I am a defendant in a suit involving a leaking exterior door seal in a home. I am named as a defendant even though I was the electrical contractor! The homeowners are suing any trade who set foot on the site. (lake front $5 million dollar house so you can imagine how spoiled rotten the owner is) Totally ridiculous and the judge refuses to remove all non related trades from the action.

I hope the PRA is ready for the can of worms that will be opened the minute the club owns a gyro.

Respectfully, been there and done that.
I know I was a Piper dealer for 10 years and set up the 1st in the country corporation called Piper Partners for co-owners.
It's allowed us sell them their more expensive dream aircraft as shares of stocks by sharing the cost with 4 or more partners.
Was the top Piper dealer in sales in small models Pipers for 7 of the 10 years while in business.
We had no law suites because the way I wrote the co-owner contract and will use about the same contract for PRA adding the new LLC to it which we did not have available way back then.

It's way worth the risk as the only asset in each LLC is the now wrecked gyroplane so they can have the asset if they win the trial and because we have insurance the insurance company will defend us because they are on the hook for the damages. But with no money to win but a wrecked aircraft few will sue as attorney do not see a pay day in the case.

In any event I've already donated all but $1,500 dollars, to pay it off, to buy San Diego Rotorcraft clubs two place trainer and will have it flying before PRA has the money to do their 1st one.
So the program will be tested here locally before PRA makes the final vote.
 
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