Safest side by side Gyro in the world? M24 vs Cavalon

[Therapy]

Fly them both yourself before you buy. M24 is extremely stable - I just flew mine 4 1/2 hours yesterday both single and dual and it is a joy to fly in, especially cross country. Roll trim is ground adjustable, but after I set mine I never mess with it. The M24 is safe, has simple and easy to operate (and maintain) pre-rotator, semi castering nose wheel, high interia rotors, and forgiving ground and flight characteristics. If you unintentionally make a small pilot error it won't bite you like other models.

Like I started with - fly them both

I hear this and know it must mean something but with no gyro experience, how does one compare one to another, really. Seat fit and comfort I can see but understanding flight charachteristics I personally feel I would be wholly unqualified to "feel" the difference. Maybe 20 min in each back to back, same day..........Bensen Days??

 

[Therapy]

I question the practical value of the comparison as originally posed. The differences, to the extent they can be determined objectively, are not large. Either one will be safe if competently flown. Either can kill you if not. It's not like comparing a sedan to a motorcycle; there is no big categorical step up in danger based on one's choice.

Ahh, yes. Thank you for that.

 

[Therapy]

Totally agree. An accident is a painful and expensive experience fatal or otherwise.
At the end of the day the differences between similar gyros are pretty minor and cosmetic.

For me if you're new to gyros and thinking of buying a "factory" gyro the choice parameters are
1) buy from a manufacturer in your country. That way you can ring him up, talk his language and even go to the factory to beat him about the head if you're not getting the service you need. Also if you need to take him to court the laws are the same for him and you.
2) If no manufacturer available in country, look at the nearest distributer to you and make sure he has a real workshop with a real mechanic and isn't just a sales guy. No matter how good a CFI or pilot he is, what you'll need soon enough is good service and spares.
3) If you're buying second hand, from personal experience having bought a couple of older gyros, anything with more than 500 hours will quickly start to need more and more maintenance especially as you approach 1000. So if you not a good mechanic, make sure you have one nearby.
A personal opinion, I'm sure there are those with older gyros with no problems but that's not my experience, these machines vibrate a lot which isn't good for any machine and automatically makes them more maintenance hungry.
Mike

USA?
I would think they would be a great nylok and threadlock compound test bed. From my two whole hours of experience. Which sold me right off!!

 

[Therapy]

Yes! dying is the same as breaking your ankle.
I wouldn't buy a second hand or a non certified gyro.
I am going to take lessons in a Magni M24 Plus next year from February, the CFI has 2500 hours and seems like a nice guy.
I don't understand what you are on about the manufacturer being in my country? All of these big companies have distributors which shockingly speak the language where they are at. Also they must be liable for the products they export/import, right?

I know Trump just won, but take it easy. I can speak in English just fine and so the manufacturer I'll be dealing with...

Anyway, thanks for the insights everyone, I'll be getting a Magni M24 extreme by the end of next year!

OK. great. Seven days since the thread began. I am taking much longer......with fewer heart beats left in life. I better get off the couch.

 

[Therapy]

I consider GWS a much-needed and innovative system, especially if we consider the average age of pilots. From my observation, in the US mature men with an average age of over 60 want to be Gyro pilots, in Europe this average age is much lower and is around 40. This can be invaluable in alerting and reacting to what is happening with the gyro during takeoff, landing and maneuvers. As we know, in most accidents the cause is human factor. Recently in Poland a Gyroplanes crashed during takeoff because the pilot accelerated it without the stick engaged and the rotor loaded - a schoolboy mistake that ended with the gyro crashing, fortunately the two aged “pilots” were fine.

In conclusion, this is an excellent and innovative project worth supporting, which as a manufacturer I am absolutely ready to do, moreover, as I confirmed to you Mike during a private conversation.

That is me except for the "mature" part. I want one maybe, but like I said before, I have to have assurance of factory support. Tom vs Raul?? Is there someone YOU approve and have checked out?

 

[Therapy]

While I am still up I have another question of the Argon GTL design. I have been told that it will "shift" or "tilt" side-to-side (forgive nomenclature please) if in cross wind or gust/turbulence. What does that mean in reality.

 

[IgnacioParodi]

Have we been hacked? lol
Anyways, I've flown the M24 twice and it is so stable. We push the cyclic forward really hard and then back repeatedly and it seems impossible to unload the rotors unless you are flying at VNE maybe
The stick force of this new M24 915 is much greater than then 914 I flew before, but not enough not to like it. The pilot said that it is because its new...

The price of the M24 plus with the extreme gear option is not too far off the Argon GTL actually.
Would you say the Argon is more robust and the rotor has the same or higher inertia than the Magni?
Is it true the Argon doesn't have a frame? is the force distribution after an impact better?

I also wonder about the prerotator characteristics and the STOL performance of the GTL. The wheels seem to be made for paved runways...

 

[Greg Vos]

Have we been hacked? lol
Anyways, I've flown the M24 twice and it is so stable. We push the cyclic forward really hard and then back repeatedly and it seems impossible to unload the rotors unless you are flying at VNE maybe
The stick force of this new M24 915 is much greater than then 914 I flew before, but not enough not to like it. The pilot said that it is because its new...

The price of the M24 plus with the extreme gear option is not too far off the Argon GTL actually.
Would you say the Argon is more robust and the rotor has the same or higher inertia than the Magni?
Is it true the Argon doesn't have a frame? is the force distribution after an impact better?

I also wonder about the prerotator characteristics and the STOL performance of the GTL. The wheels seem to be made for paved runways...

Push the stick fwd…and back ….looking for trouble here IMO….with any rotorcraft you need to be gentle with the stick going fwd, I like to teach the student …we “invite” the nose down attitude

 

[IgnacioParodi]

Push the stick fwd…and back ….looking for trouble here IMO….with any rotorcraft you need to be gentle with the stick going fwd, I like to teach the student …we “invite” the nose down attitude

How can you explore the limits of the machine? honest question...
I've been in negative G maneuvers and this felt just slightly below 1g
maybe if you do the same in different gyro the results are different

is it worth it having a G meter?

Is there any case of negative G causing an accident in a M24?

 

[Greg Vos]

How can you explore the limits of the machine? honest question...
I've been in negative G maneuvers and this felt just slightly below 1g
maybe if you do the same in different gyro the results are different

is it worth it having a G meter?

Is there any case of negative G causing an accident in a M24?

Negative G in any gyro can cause an accident so it’s to be avoided, spend time with a good instructor he will demonstrate the flight envelope of your gyro
Short moments of negative G are not an issue as the rotor would not have time to fully unload, easily felt in turbulence
IMO a G meter will be of no benefit in a Gyroplane, learn to feel the aircraft …gyroplanes were built for fun slow very manoeuvrable machines …I like to keep it simple, nowadays as the well healed enter the gyro market they want toys ( fancy digital screens, leather seats aircon and other crap)
You need basic instruments and a good understanding of how to read them - nothing else IMO.
The Cavalon is well appointed almost like a BMW, when what is needed is a VW beatle ….the more complex the thing the more the pilot ( normally with little exp) spends mucking about with his panel …learn to fly “head out the cockpit”
A gyro needs airspeed …rule of thumb keep 60/65 Mph airspeed, you need to be a real idiot to scribble it because with that you can fly it out of any situation go below 40Mph you need skills…skills that come with experience….experience is the thing you get when you need it the least
I have not flown all gyros - RAF / vintage Sycamore to mention 2 I have flown a number of them to appreciate they all fly exactly the same with the same principles
Basic solid AB initio training is what will make you a safe pilot

 

[IgnacioParodi]

Negative G in any gyro can cause an accident so it’s to be avoided, spend time with a good instructor he will demonstrate the flight envelope of your gyro
Short moments of negative G are not an issue as the rotor would not have time to fully unload, easily felt in turbulence
IMO a G meter will be of no benefit in a Gyroplane, learn to feel the aircraft …gyroplanes were built for fun slow very manoeuvrable machines …I like to keep it simple, nowadays as the well healed enter the gyro market they want toys ( fancy digital screens, leather seats aircon and other crap)
You need basic instruments and a good understanding of how to read them - nothing else IMO.
The Cavalon is well appointed almost like a BMW, when what is needed is a VW beatle ….the more complex the thing the more the pilot ( normally with little exp) spends mucking about with his panel …learn to fly “head out the cockpit”
A gyro needs airspeed …rule of thumb keep 60/65 Mph airspeed, you need to be a real idiot to scribble it because with that you can fly it out of any situation go below 40Mph you need skills…skills that come with experience….experience is the thing you get when you need it the least
I have not flown all gyros - RAF / vintage Sycamore to mention 2 I have flown a number of them to appreciate they all fly exactly the same with the same principles
Basic solid AB initio training is what will make you a safe pilot

My CFI has over 3500 hours. I woudn't try anything risky, safety is number 1. So it's good "feel" what are the limits of the machine with someone very experienced on that particular model
and I agree with everything you said! keep the panel simple and fly with your head out the cockpit!

 

[Abid]

How can you explore the limits of the machine? honest question...
I've been in negative G maneuvers and this felt just slightly below 1g
maybe if you do the same in different gyro the results are different

is it worth it having a G meter?

Is there any case of negative G causing an accident in a M24?

There have been plenty of fatal accidents in M24 that clearly point to unloading of rotors and loss of control. Forget negative G. This can happen at sustained low G. Why this can happen at sustained low G (0.5 G for instance)? You better ask someone like Jean Claude (JC) as he has previously explained about induced drag being a contributing factor. Magni or any brand is not magically immune to effects of Physics. M24 is also more prone to catch fire in crashes than other models and that is statistically proven. But you shouldn't be planning to crash and take proper instruction. Magni is good gyroplane overall.
I would not advise you to explore the limits of the machine like you posted in another message. That is done for you by factory test pilots in careful stepwise ways to a safety margin. You do not have to become that type of test pilot yourself. It is completely unnecessary for an end user (your CFI or not) and it is obvious you did not have a data logger or even a G meter display. That is kind of playing with fire without any systematic approach. Stick force or pressure has absolutely very little to do with stability or even "acceleration". It only implies amplitude of force needed for static stability but does not make static stability better.
There is a big difference in being a good pilot with a lot of experience in a model or even being a good show pilot and being a proper test pilot who follows a script precisely and much more keen of noticing or logging data. These two are may be related but certainly not the same. Be careful. Fly safely.

 

[Greg Vos]

There have been plenty of fatal accidents in M24 that clearly point to unloading of rotors and loss of control. Forget negative G. This can happen at sustained low G. Why this can happen at sustained low G (0.5 G for instance)? You better ask someone like Jean Claude (JC) as he has previously explained about induced drag being a contributing factor. Magni or any brand is not magically immune to effects of Physics. M24 is also more prone to catch fire in crashes than other models and that is statistically proven. But you shouldn't be planning to crash and take proper instruction. Magni is good gyroplane overall.
I would not advise you to explore the limits of the machine like you posted in another message. That is done for you by factory test pilots in careful stepwise ways to a safety margin. You do not have to become that type of test pilot yourself. It is completely unnecessary for an end user (your CFI or not) and it is obvious you did not have a data logger or even a G meter display. That is kind of playing with fire without any systematic approach. Stick force or pressure has absolutely very little to do with stability or even "acceleration". It only implies amplitude of force needed for static stability but does not make static stability better.
There is a big difference in being a good pilot with a lot of experience in a model or even being a good show pilot and being a proper test pilot who follows a script precisely and much more keen of noticing or logging data. These two are may be related but certainly not the same. Be careful. Fly safely.

Let’s not forget his flying with a 3500 hour CFI who should be telling him this … I have met some CFI’s who I would not recommend …
Your unbiased contribution Abid is always refreshing

 

[IgnacioParodi]

There have been plenty of fatal accidents in M24 that clearly point to unloading of rotors and loss of control. Forget negative G. This can happen at sustained low G. Why this can happen at sustained low G (0.5 G for instance)? You better ask someone like Jean Claude (JC) as he has previously explained about induced drag being a contributing factor. Magni or any brand is not magically immune to effects of Physics. M24 is also more prone to catch fire in crashes than other models and that is statistically proven. But you shouldn't be planning to crash and take proper instruction. Magni is good gyroplane overall.
I would not advise you to explore the limits of the machine like you posted in another message. That is done for you by factory test pilots in careful stepwise ways to a safety margin. You do not have to become that type of test pilot yourself. It is completely unnecessary for an end user (your CFI or not) and it is obvious you did not have a data logger or even a G meter display. That is kind of playing with fire without any systematic approach. Stick force or pressure has absolutely very little to do with stability or even "acceleration". It only implies amplitude of force needed for static stability but does not make static stability better.
There is a big difference in being a good pilot with a lot of experience in a model or even being a good show pilot and being a proper test pilot who follows a script precisely and much more keen of noticing or logging data. These two are may be related but certainly not the same. Be careful. Fly safely.

Thanks again Abid, can anyone comment on these 2 videos that show the M24 doing some maneuvers. Did the pull less than 1 G in their routine? I think the GWS gives you the first warning at 0.6 G right? Do you use a G meter when you fly Abid?

 

[Aerofoam]

My CFI has over 3500 hours. I woudn't try anything risky, safety is number 1. So it's good "feel" what are the limits of the machine with someone very experienced on that particular model
and I agree with everything you said! keep the panel simple and fly with your head out the cockpit!

Low G is not something to be experimented with in a gyro, it is like experimenting with pulling high Gs at a low speed and low altitude in a fixed wing on the final turn before landing, both will kill you.
Another way to think about this is: Would you practice stalls in a fixed wing aircraft? if you knew the wing was going to come around and cut your tail off and turn your aircraft into a tumbling heap headed for the ground? I think not......
It is not difficult to avoid dangerous realms of the flight envelope, just make sure you know where they are.....

 

[wolfy]

In any aircraft that hangs: Trike/hangglider, paraglider or any two bladed rotor craft teach your brain to avoid low/negative G at all cost.
You only get one chance to find out where the limits are.

wolfy

 

[Abid]

Thanks again Abid, can anyone comment on these 2 videos that show the M24 doing some maneuvers. Did the pull less than 1 G in their routine? I think the GWS gives you the first warning at 0.6 G right? Do you use a G meter when you fly Abid?

Yes, a few times he got below 1G but only in transition and that's the point. The pilot is experienced and understands how not to hang out in low G. You would have to hang there for many seconds. Transitory low G does not do bad things, and they happen in bumpy condition in nature anyway and aircraft handle that just fine.
GWS gives warning yes around that but it is also looking at a trend of G force and seeing how fast its accelerating (negative) and making a prediction to warn you, so you have a few seconds to correct it.

 

[IgnacioParodi]

Wow this video gave me shivers!

someone commented:

Helicopter instructor here... The people who are commenting about the initial pushover are correct... If done wrong, you can unload the rotor which can have catastrophic results. If you watch carefully, he slows down just before the pushover. By doing that, he made the pushover less dangerous. In order to unload the rotor, ie experience low gee, you have to fly a parabolic low gee trajectory. At high speed, a very gentle cyclic push can follow that low gee arc. The slower you go, the harder a push it takes. At almost no forward speed ( like, below 10 knots ) it's practically impossible to push hard enough to achieve low gee. During a low speed pushover, there's almost no lift dissymmetry, so flapping ( and thus flapping angle ) is minimal...That said, unless you instrument the aircraft to monitor flapping angle, it's still a guess how aggressive maneuvering is affecting the rotor, and you won't know how close to catastrophe you are. And, people who are seeking thrills from such flying tend to push harder and harder until a limit is finally reached which often results in a crash.So, probably best to not be doing such maneuvers, even if you think you know what you're doing..

 

[wolfy]

No problem at all, he was at very low or maybe zero airspeed when he pushed the nose over.

 

[Abid]

Wow this video gave me shivers!

someone commented:

Helicopter instructor here... The people who are commenting about the initial pushover are correct... If done wrong, you can unload the rotor which can have catastrophic results. If you watch carefully, he slows down just before the pushover. By doing that, he made the pushover less dangerous. In order to unload the rotor, ie experience low gee, you have to fly a parabolic low gee trajectory. At high speed, a very gentle cyclic push can follow that low gee arc. The slower you go, the harder a push it takes. At almost no forward speed ( like, below 10 knots ) it's practically impossible to push hard enough to achieve low gee. During a low speed pushover, there's almost no lift dissymmetry, so flapping ( and thus flapping angle ) is minimal...That said, unless you instrument the aircraft to monitor flapping angle, it's still a guess how aggressive maneuvering is affecting the rotor, and you won't know how close to catastrophe you are. And, people who are seeking thrills from such flying tend to push harder and harder until a limit is finally reached which often results in a crash.So, probably best to not be doing such maneuvers, even if you think you know what you're doing..

He pushes the cyclic slowly after slowing down and cutting power smoothly. That slow speed reduces the risk. He also start to turn as he gets a little speeds to stabilize the G load and acceleration. Still, what was the need to do this maneuver specially when you are in fact a manufacturer's representative. He or ELA has not been sued yet for any accident. I can tell. Once he gets a lawsuit because factory pilot was demonstrating such a maneuver and someone who is not skilled tried it and got killed, they will stop doing this stuff, I guarantee it, even if they win the lawsuit.

These should be demonstrated by people not related to the factory. A mistake doing this maneuver can definitely cause more unloading than you want. Slow speed reduces the risk but it does not eliminate it. There is weather, turbulence that if happens at the right moment can take you beyond the limit. The pilot could over control the input. He can decide to try and pull up just a second too late due to distraction. Any of those things can happen. Simply no need for a manufacturing rep to do these maneuvers on behalf of the manufacturer at a public airshow. ELA I have noticed at airshows before even this guy, always did an airshow routine that was impressive. Daniel Lopez (one of the brothers who used to own ELA) is an excellent pilot and an excellent person in my opinion but he was grounded one sun n fun after demonstrating some maneuvers too low over the runway in an Eclipse 10. You do not need that. Gyroplanes do not need that in the US market at least.

While in low G during the pushover if you give lateral input a bit quickly and abruptly, you are likely to chop your tail. You literally have to time that input and do it smoothly. Not for me. I am certainly not that skilled to do it correctly every time. I know what is going on but my hands are not guaranteed to keep up with my brain. In that initial pushover he likely reached 0.4 G. That is what I have seen and measured in pushovers like this. He certainly was not in danger the way he did it but others who try to copy it may not be.