Safest side by side Gyro in the world? M24 vs Cavalon

[Abid]

Quote:
Modgil Arun, the manufacturer of the American Ranger said that you also had a number of problems with the structure cracking, you are so eager to speak about other gyros, maybe you should also tell about your experience....
End Quote

Mogdil Arun is now the manufacturer of AR-1? Whoa.
That is news to me.
His Georgia composite shop was sub-contracted to make only composite parts for us, but that contract is no longer active. The composite parts are being done in Tampa, Florida and so is the welding and assembly. He basically shutdown that composite business for all practical purposes.

Remember I only listed structural failures when a specific question was asked and no one can deny those failures. I know about them because every one of them was at some point discussed on this forum over the last 9 years and I happen to have a pretty decent memory.

I also did not say anything about Argon till you inserted basically its supposed good points in this discussion. I do not have a side by side to sell so I care less what the guy asking ends up with. It won't make me any $$ anyway.

Only since you are asking, sure. I am happy to speak about AR-1 structurally.
We have had ZERO structural cracking in even the oldest AR-1s and they are reaching 2000, 1500 and 1200+ hours.
No mast has cracked. No rotorhead has come apart even in crashes. No rotors have shown cracking. No rotor blades have broken off. No tail booms have come apart in flight. No oil or fuel fires have happened up in the air. No electrical fires have started on factory setup wiring and avionics. No fuel tanks have started a fire upon crashing if the pilot survived. None of that. We have had some people fix their gyroplanes after tipping them over and they did them themselves without parts or factory involvement. I saw a couple of those repairs and I was shocked but hey it's their machine and it is registered as Experimental. I cannot force them to fix it right.

Arun would not know anything about the AR-1 fleet so I am pretty sure he did not say that to you. You must have really misunderstood something. He has never even seen an AR-1 welded frame in person. He certainly is not the manufacturer, and his outfit has not even assembled one gyroplane yet. Though he did ask for a dealership and if he wants to he can certainly buy a kit and I will support him to assemble.

I appreciate your enthusiasm to promote your products and try to distance yourself from Celier and Xenon but truly I do not think you can easily. Till a year ago there were 4 companies making different versions of the same design in Poland which is a small country relatively. The only true new design seems to be Trendak's new gyroplane which clearly looks different but unfortunately due to Celier's shenanigans in the US market Trendak has also got a reputation that is hard to put aside

If your mast does not break away like all Xenons did, then that's a good step forward. Have you seen that from the field. When that rotor hits the ground, it is a lot of force to suddenly dissipate.

 

[IgnacioParodi]

Face it gentlemen…..any gyro is only as safe as the pilot flying them.
Be safe out there

If life were that simple and unidimensional...there are a myriad of factors for every situation.
I am aware that I am the main one, but I will control as many as I can
I am not trying to be overly dramatic, just trying to get opinions from the experts.
You all know gyros have a bad reputation, mostly cause of bad designs in the past and lack of training, such as these fellas

 

[Greg Vos]

If life were that simple and unidimensional...there are a myriad of factors for every situation.
I am aware that I am the main one, but I will control as many as I can
I am not trying to be overly dramatic, just trying to get opinions from the experts.
You all know gyros have a bad reputation, mostly cause of bad designs in the past and lack of training, such as these fellas

This is currently a court case in South Africa, the instructor has been charged with 4 counts of culpable homiside.
The case gets heard in April 2025, just my comments there was not a lack of training, it was a case of young men being converted from newly minted fixed wing comm to gyro for crop spraying and the flight school/instructor were given the the training contract to train these boys to fly a gyro - what happened is that new gyro pilots with low hours cannot fly with the experience that a high time guy can and agri ops requires experience.
It was a combination of low hours and fixed wing muscle memory that contributed to this mess, it’s a great pity the instructor in question simply did not table in his files “training Mr x for a recreational licence only” as this would have IMO protected him from very murky waters. Sorry to drift the thread.

 

[ARGON Producer]

If life were that simple and unidimensional...there are a myriad of factors for every situation.
I am aware that I am the main one, but I will control as many as I can
I am not trying to be overly dramatic, just trying to get opinions from the experts.
You all know gyros have a bad reputation, mostly cause of bad designs in the past and lack of training, such as these fellas

This forum thread should be called " The most dangerous gyro in the world - Magni or AutoGyro".

But back to the topic - training and more training.

STATISTICS - this speaks best to the imagination:
59 ARGON Classic
and
39 ARGON GTL units sold worldwide
Total 98 flying gyroplanes since 2018 in various conditions around the world, including one that flew the Arctic and transoceanic flights 16 000 km

The result:
ZERO fatalities and zero incidents in which anyone suffered even the slightest injury.
Two minor incidents after which the ARGON 915 was repaired and continues to be used.
The best SAFETY FACTOR „0” injures „0” death.

 

[Abid]

The reality is that if flown properly both Cavalon and Magni are indeed safe machines. The accident that shows the miss in negative G and gimbal block coming apart due to torque roll. Ok I agree that should not have come apart but I also think the guy had lost control and was dead either way at that point.
In Magnis also the propensity to catch fire every time is not good but you have definitely crashed.

In my opinion, these companies both should definitely fix these tendencies and AutoGyro needs to set the life limit of their rotor system much more realistically than the sugar-coated analysis. Likely 1500 hours.

The best protection is full and proper training and use of a systematic approach to reduce brain farts on takeoff etc. Warning systems like GWS could be a good tool and they should consider utilizing it as a standard. No aircraft is ever going to be 100% perfect. Anyone who thinks that is dreaming. That is why we have continued airworthiness and Safety Directives.

 

[ARGON Producer]

Till a year ago there were 4 companies making different versions of the same design in Poland

Cleaning up sometimes takes time, we are at the end of 2024 and there is no company producing as you claim “the same design” FlyArgo went bankrupt and I bought what was left of them, MBL stopped doing anything to do with aviation, the third company I don't know despite the best intentions, the fourth you probably meant mine?

Only Manufaktura Lotnicza started a new era with the ARGON project, fundamentally changing the whole design so that it required full recertification - structural changes to the monocoque, landing gear, mast, rotor, engines, propellers, drive propellers, avionics, interior fittings, fuel tanks, winglets, instrument panels, installations, autopilots....

The others just tried to take advantage of the confusion to pull a lawless design flawed and outdated project under the name XENON.
Time has shown whose side the law was on…

Every project draws more or less inspiration from other good projects, if a good, safe product is created that someone subscribes to without harming others and cares about the safety of those flying in it then I'm OK with that.

 

[Abid]

Cleaning up sometimes takes time, we are at the end of 2024 and there is no company producing as you claim “the same design” FlyArgo went bankrupt and I bought what was left of them, MBL stopped doing anything to do with aviation, the third company I don't know despite the best intentions, the fourth you probably meant mine?

Only Manufaktura Lotnicza started a new era with the ARGON project, fundamentally changing the whole design so that it required full recertification - structural changes to the monocoque, landing gear, mast, rotor, engines, propellers, drive propellers, avionics, interior fittings, fuel tanks, winglets, instrument panels, installations, autopilots....

The others just tried to take advantage of the confusion to pull a lawless design flawed and outdated project under the name XENON.
Time has shown whose side the law was on…

Every project draws more or less inspiration from other good projects, if a good, safe product is created that someone subscribes to without harming others and cares about the safety of those flying in it then I'm OK with that.

Artur Trendak is the 3rd company. Has been producing the Xenon almost from the start. Argon to me is just a slight improvement on the Xenon. I did the same thing with Apollo Gyro. AR-1 is improved version of Apollo Gyro but I bought and paid for the base design. Apollo also was having difficulty producing the gyroplanes and they later stopped making Apollo Gyro. They really were selling it at too low a price where it was not profitable. But I would never pretend that AR-1 was not based on AG-1. It simply was. I just fixed their rubbish and improved things.

 

[Steve_UK]

Hi Krys

The production figures you mention are some way ahead of my own amateur notes gathered from afar.

""
59 ARGON Classic
and
39 ARGON GTL units sold worldwide
Total 98 flying gyroplanes since 2018 in various conditions around the world, including one that flew the Arctic and transoceanic flights 16 000 km""


Argon Classic - Complicated by the early joint dealings between ML and Air Gyro - my understanding is that the first example was s/n AGML001-915C - "AG" Air Gyro "ML" Manufaktura Lotnicza - this became N665TL in Florida circa 2019 with the FAA showing the type as the Air Gyro AG-915

followed by AGML002, AGML003, AGML004 - I've nothing on #5
#6 being MLAG006 - becoming SP-XRYB in Poland circa 2020 - type registered as a Xenon IV Argon 915

#7 appears to be an Air Gyro product from Piotrokow which became N895J

#8 MLAG008 initially as SP-XENZ registered as an Xenon IV Argon 915 and later sold to Czechia as OK-CWE-02

#9 #10 and #11 I've not found

#12 MLAG0012 to N79GP in Colorado
#13 MLAG0013 to N915SG registered as an Xenon IV Argon
#14 MLAG0014 as SP-XTRA circa 2021 and later to the USA in 2023
#15 MLAG0015 as SP-XARG registered as an ML Xenon IV Argon 915

#16 and #17 I've not found

#18 MLAG0018 to N4185T in Indiana

#19 and #20 I've not found

#21 MLAG021 to N915LH in Nebraska circa 2022
#22 MLAG022 to SP-XMPW circa 2022

#23 I've not found

#24 MLAG024 to Czechia as OK-CWE-01 circa 2023
#25 MLAG025 to Canada circa 2022
#26 MALG026 to Canada circa 2022

#27 I've not found

#28 MLAG028 F-JLEL exhibited new at Aero 2024 Friedrichshafen in April 2024

some of the above unknown are believed to have gone to France, Israel, Hungary and other places.


I'm a long way off of 59 Classic Argons built by ML.


Are you including the approx 25 examples of the Xenon built by the second version of "CA" ( initially at new premise at Radom and later move down to Piotrokow T -years approx 2012 to 2016 ) after the big split ( the first three being Xenon 2 and the rest Xenon IV



With the long GTL version I've got notes up to s/n 0014 from ML plus a recent delivery to UAE - you suggest 39 delivered - are you including the couple of Celier C-44 and the Air Gyro - Alvaro Tovar "Javelin" examples too ?




Regards

 

[ARGON Producer]

Steve
ARGON Classic have numbers MLAG000 (Manufaktura Lotnicza Auto Gyro 000)
ARGON GTL MLAGL0000 (Manufaktura Lotnicza Auto Gyro Long 0000)
You don’t recognize MLAG and MLAGL so don’t be surprise to have MLAG007 and MLAGL0007 this is two different Gyroplanes.
First prototype of ARGON 915 classic was tested 2017
First prototype ARGON GTL 2021
Under this numerations we cover only ARGONs production (2017-2024) not previous one, some numbers are used for certifications processes, some exported to Asia and Arab country’s, some aircraft’s still are in company fully mounted and some KITs waiting for delivery.

 

[Steve_UK]

Hi Krys

Thank you - I have the Argon GTL versions as s/n MLAGL thanks.

Struggling to get anywhere near 39 examples delivered and flying, recent 2024 registrations include,

MLAGL009 to Canada as C-GBGJ registered September 2024

MLAGL012 to USA as N434JL registered October 2024 - this might go to Chile?

MLAGL014 to USA as N916YV registered July 2024


Can you help with 0015 through 0039 - thanks

 

[Abid]

Steve
ARGON Classic have numbers MLAG000 (Manufaktura Lotnicza Auto Gyro 000)
ARGON GTL MLAGL0000 (Manufaktura Lotnicza Auto Gyro Long 0000)
You don’t recognize MLAG and MLAGL so don’t be surprise to have MLAG007 and MLAGL0007 this is two different Gyroplanes.
First prototype of ARGON 915 classic was tested 2017
First prototype ARGON GTL 2021
Under this numerations we cover only ARGONs production (2017-2024) not previous one, some numbers are used for certifications processes, some exported to Asia and Arab country’s, some aircraft’s still are in company fully mounted and some KITs waiting for delivery.

In Asia, I know you have shipped a couple to Turkey. Which other countries have you shipped to. Arab countries? It is great if they have started to allow civilian gyroplane market. Pretty restrictive besides a few princely owned in UAE and a club or so in Qatar.

 

[IgnacioParodi]

The reality is that if flown properly both Cavalon and Magni are indeed safe machines. The accident that shows the miss in negative G and gimbal block coming apart due to torque roll. Ok I agree that should not have come apart but I also think the guy had lost control and was dead either way at that point.
In Magnis also the propensity to catch fire every time is not good but you have definitely crashed.

In my opinion, these companies both should definitely fix these tendencies and AutoGyro needs to set the life limit of their rotor system much more realistically than the sugar-coated analysis. Likely 1500 hours.

The best protection is full and proper training and use of a systematic approach to reduce brain farts on takeoff etc. Warning systems like GWS could be a good tool and they should consider utilizing it as a standard. No aircraft is ever going to be 100% perfect. Anyone who thinks that is dreaming. That is why we have continued airworthiness and Safety Directives.

What's the state of development and implementation of the GWS device? Has any big manufacturer expressed desire to fit it to their models? I guess it needs to be set up for every specific application...

The Argon indeed looks awesome and I appreciate the owner not being afraid to engage in discussions. Not hiding as others would... Transparency is king!
However the price is way above what I am looking for, at least in Australia where the dollar is so cheap and taxes are ridiculous

 

[ARGON Producer]

Hi Krys

Thank you - I have the Argon GTL versions as s/n MLAGL thanks.

Struggling to get anywhere near 39 examples delivered and flying, recent 2024 registrations include,

MLAGL009 to Canada as C-GBGJ registered September 2024

MLAGL012 to USA as N434JL registered October 2024 - this might go to Chile?

MLAGL014 to USA as N916YV registered July 2024


Can you help with 0015 through 0039 - thanks

Dear Steve

I will share with you those numbers and locations that customers agree to, however, we also do business with pro-government agencies who are unlikely to want us to disclose data about them.
We work a lot vs. countries in the Middle East and Gulf Region (we have win the government tender in Pakistan for example, India etc)

 

[Steve_UK]

Re Pakistan - a news item from earlier in 2024 mentions a gyrocopter deal between German company Scilair and Sky Wings Aviation, a Pakistani company.

Photo shows a Xenon IV ( now the Argon ).

A certificate shows Celier Aviation and Sky Wings Aviation signed by the well known German dealer Harry S.

Is this related to the deal you mention above.

It's complicated.

link here

German company to manufacture lightweight aircraft in Pakistan

Foreign aviation company has expressed its readiness to manufacture lightweight aircraft in Pakistan, marking a significant step forward for the country’s

arynews.tv

 

[Abid]

Dear Steve

I will share with you those numbers and locations that customers agree to, however, we also do business with pro-government agencies who are unlikely to want us to disclose data about them.
We work a lot vs. countries in the Middle East and Gulf Region (we have win the government tender in Pakistan for example, India etc)

You cannot win a government tender in Pakistan as well as India. You usually have to select one.
I know nothing is in India. Maybe one so far.

I know nothing is in Pakistan. My mothers family is in high positions in politics there including first female speaker of the house and federal ministers. Tell me what you have win in Pakistan. I can find out.

 

[ARGON Producer]

Re Pakistan - a news item from earlier in 2024 mentions a gyrocopter deal between German company Scilair and Sky Wings Aviation, a Pakistani company.

Photo shows a Xenon IV ( now the Argon ).

A certificate shows Celier Aviation and Sky Wings Aviation signed by the well known German dealer Harry S.

Is this related to the deal you mention above.

It's complicated.

link here

German company to manufacture lightweight aircraft in Pakistan

Foreign aviation company has expressed its readiness to manufacture lightweight aircraft in Pakistan, marking a significant step forward for the country’s

arynews.tv

As I wrote earlier after many months we managed to organize the market when it comes to unauthorized and illegal production of Xenon - Krzysztof Wronowski is the sole legal owner and holder of the copyright according to the Judgment in the name of the Republic of Poland issued by the Regional Court in Warsaw, 20th Commercial Division, dated May 17, 2018, case No. XX GC 651/16. As a result, no other company can produce and supply Xenon and its derivatives.

Unfortunately, Mr. Stuedemann tried to mislead the Pakistani recipient with his illegal actions.

Fortunately, he did not succeed and the Government of Pakistan asked us to carry out the project, which, belatedly but is now being implemented.

ARGON is not Xenon. It is a successor to the Xenon to which hundreds of significant structural changes have been made from the fuselage through the rotor, engine, propellers and avionics.

ARGON and ARGON GTL have separate Type Certificates and the certification process was conducted completely from scratch due to the different design of these aircraft.

I emphasize under the law ARGON is a completely new TYPE of aircraft defined by a new DDP and Type Certificate.

 

[ARGON Producer]

You cannot win a government tender in Pakistan as well as India. You usually have to select one.
I know nothing is in India. Maybe one so far.

I know nothing is in Pakistan. My mothers family is in high positions in politics there including first female speaker of the house and federal ministers. Tell me what you have win in Pakistan. I can find out.

Well, since you know better ...

Very strange is this forum, where instead of focusing on technique, improvement, creative work, discussion of details active participants have most questions about what does not concern them....

 

[Abid]

Well, since you know better ...

Very strange is this forum, where instead of focusing on technique, improvement, creative work, discussion of details active participants have most questions about what does not concern them....

Because your stuff doesn’t add up.
You possibly can’t think two countries pointing nukes at each other are going to buy for defense from the same source easily.
I could see it for civilian market and neither DGCA nor Pakistani CAA even recognize gyroplanes properly right now. They are working on it. Pakistani CAA has some familiarity with gyroplanes because one of the Qazi brothers who was one of the main instructors for Saudi AG dealer brought one to Pakistan and tried to have it registered. Unfortunately he died in it flying in IMC at night around mountains.

 

[ARGON Producer]

Because your stuff doesn’t add up.
You possibly can’t think two countries pointing nukes at each other which both have close to 200 and unofficially already having ICBMs are going to buy for defense from the same source easily.
I could see it for civilian market and neither DGCA nor Pakistani CAA even recognized gyroplanes properly right now. They are working on it. Pakistani CAA has sone familiarity with gyroplanes because one of the Qazi brothers who was one of the main instructors for Saudi AG dealer brought one to Pakistan and tried to have it registered. Unfortunately he died in it flying in IMC at night around mountains.

Abid, I wrote you a DM but I can't attach a picture there, check your WhatsApp
First gyro for test to India we send 2016, from this time we working on the legislation there

It's a shame for me to waste my time on such conversations.

 

[Abid]

Abid, I wrote you a DM but I can't attach a picture there, check your WhatsApp
First gyro for test to India we send 2016, from this time we working on the legislation there

It's a shame for me to waste my time on such conversations.

That gyroplane did not even get to fly and was returned the customer's money never given back. It was Celier I thought who did that. It was you?