Safest side by side Gyro in the world? M24 vs Cavalon

[IgnacioParodi]

Hey Guys, I just flew a Magni M24 last week finally after watching hundreds of Youtube videos about gyros and I must say I enjoyed it way more than flying a plane!

I am planning to buy a Gyro next year and I care a lot about safety.

My question is: Is the M24 the safest side by side gyro in the world? they say is very forgiving and stable, both in the air and for ground operation. Plus it seems to have a good record in comparison to the Cavalon

The Cavalon can prerotate over 300 rpm now for normal operation, which allows it to take off shorter than 20 meters, it also has more space and better range.
However they have a high accident rate, it doesn't seem be well balance for take off, what they call the Cavalon nod (so many take off accidents)
Therefore is not recommended as a first Gyro either
There are some accidents where the main rotor detached from the mast! it seems like it's easier to pull negative Gs on it

I wouldn't get a xenon derived gyro because they are like 6 companies building them, its too confusing and doesn't feel reliable.
The rest are all tandems which I don't like.

Thanks for sharing your wisdom!

 

[BarryK]

I have no issues with my Cavalon…..been flying her for more than 12 years. Most of the reported accidents were pilot error.

 

[PJB]

Here is a view with no punches pulled because of commercial self interest etc. For context I have c.2000hrs gyroplanes was an instructor in the UK on them and the YouTube channel Gyrocopter flying club is me and so you can see my view on many different topics since c.2020.

In a nutshell prior to the November 2020 Cavalon accident in Scotland, UK. I would have taken a Cavalon over an M24 simply because it is faster, more comfortable and the stick forces can be trimmed out. Unless Magni have suddenly equipped the M24 with roll trim for me that rules out the M24 as it is genuinely a PITA to fly for more than an hour. Regardless of any other qualities or features for me I don't like them for that reason. You may feel that isn't a problem for you and then cool.

Xenon I don't know.

Cavalon wise. The take off nod is really poor technique, but guess what when people learn at some point they go through that - and in the UK where we don't fly for months over the winter.... but get some time with an instructor and you'll get on top of that.

The pre-rotate element needs a huge caveat because for most pilots, especially if you don't take the 915 motor, the take off run is same / same unless you modify the technique because of the higher rotor drag. But if you are talking the 300+RRPM pre-rotate then you are talking the rotorhead 3.

Then we come to the Nov 2020 accident and as a result I won't fly one or fly in one, not with rotorhead 3. There are elements of the AAIB report that I don't understand and neither does anyone else either because there isn't enough data from the accident flight or nobody has really done the analysis, but it is concerning for me.

I'll counter those that say "well I've done 100hrs of hours in a Cavalon and no accidents". That includes me, but it includes me with Rotorsystem 2 - which is different in configuration [and to the no analysis point - I don't know what the range of movement is available with RS2]. Then those hours I have flown in Cavalon with RS3 is that luck I don't know how close or otherwise I have been to an accident and that gives me an uncomfortable feeling because actually within the AAIB I don't think either the CAA seems to have very robust oversight of the process that allows these types to fly and I don't think AutoGyro / Rotorsport have covered themselves in glory either.

You talk of negative g - but nothing in the AAIB report shows the accident pilot flew any manoeuvre with negative g - just with g less than 1. There are a hundreds of days when I've flown in gyroplanes with those values because in the middle of the summer and the thermals you bump along and transient g levels are easily those we see in the AAIB report.

We all talk about "low g" and for the most part we muddle along with a thinking that we all feel we understand but there is a difference between low g no power, low g with power and low g with power and manoeuvring and when the POH suggests that the load limit for Cavalon is -0.5g to structural failure at maximum weight then there is a big difference between 0.5g [in the accident flight] and -0.5g.

Like I said I don't really get it and so on that basis I wouldn't fly one.

 

[AgentCheese]

Fly them both yourself before you buy. M24 is extremely stable - I just flew mine 4 1/2 hours yesterday both single and dual and it is a joy to fly in, especially cross country. Roll trim is ground adjustable, but after I set mine I never mess with it. The M24 is safe, has simple and easy to operate (and maintain) pre-rotator, semi castering nose wheel, high interia rotors, and forgiving ground and flight characteristics. If you unintentionally make a small pilot error it won't bite you like other models.

Like I started with - fly them both

 

[Abid]

You will find Cavalon fatal accidents linking it to maneuvering low G or in flight retreating blade stall and you will find just as many M24 with the same accident. Just look at US, French, Italian and Spanish accidents and they are all there. Statistically for the number of gyroplanes out there AutoGyro technically are better in terms of lower fatal accident rate than Magni. However, AG have more non-fatal accidents. So pick your poison. One thing that bothers the heck out of me personally is the catching fire on Magni accidents almost every time in a hard crash. Even when pilot and passenger are alive and then because of the fire they burn to death (French hard landing accident).
AG has introduced new rotorhead 3 and that was in 2019 or 2020 and the recent AAIB detailed report I am still trying to wrap my head around. It is long and unfortunately some things are left unanswered but it for me puts in question the structural viability of this rotorhead right now. It took them way too long to release this report.

 

[rcflier]

Abid, I have a problem with the AG 3 rotor. It is my understanding, that the hub bar is the same as the type2. And you can mount either type 2 or type 3 teeter block (I forgot what it's called). They type 3 block is lower than type 2 - I'd think that would cause some vibrations as the teeter center should be in the plane of the CG of the blades....

Cheers
Erik

 

[IgnacioParodi]

So the Magni is reliable, but outdated? like a Toyota who takes 15 years to be upgrade a car?
And the Cavalon is a state of the art design that tries to push the envelope too far and ends up being finicky and unreliable as a Land Rover?

Did I get it right?

Are you saying the fatal accident rate is higher on the M24 than the Cavalon? I know Magni has 1500 gyros flying and Autogyro about 2500?
But specifically to those models I don't know.

I heard of the Magni M24 catching on fire after a crash too, why haven't they redesign the fuel tank compartment and materials?

Anyways I appreciate the insights, I guess for the Cavalon is better to wait for an official statement from the company. I would be sold on the Cavalon just because of the extra space and a prerotator that allows true STOL capabilities, in contrast to the Magni that added bigger wheels and shocks and calls it Extreme or a STOL model, without improving the prerotator for shorter TO. ( I know they changed the materials, but just for durability)

Cheers

 

[Abid]

So the Magni is reliable, but outdated? like a Toyota who takes 15 years to be upgrade a car?
And the Cavalon is a state of the art design that tries to push the envelope too far and ends up being finicky and unreliable as a Land Rover?

Did I get it right?

Are you saying the fatal accident rate is higher on the M24 than the Cavalon? I know Magni has 1500 gyros flying and Autogyro about 2500?
But specifically to those models I don't know.

I heard of the Magni M24 catching on fire after a crash too, why haven't they redesign the fuel tank compartment and materials?

Anyways I appreciate the insights, I guess for the Cavalon is better to wait for an official statement from the company. I would be sold on the Cavalon just because of the extra space and a prerotator that allows true STOL capabilities, in contrast to the Magni that added bigger wheels and shocks and calls it Extreme or a STOL model, without improving the prerotator for shorter TO. ( I know they changed the materials, but just for durability)

Cheers

Prerotation to 300 does not make you clear a 50 foot obstacle any earlier. It may shorten the ground roll but that's it. I flew or trained someone in MTO 2017 with this 300 RRPM pre-rotator. It had the 914 on it for power. My AR-1 with 914 side to side would always clear 50 foot on the runway earlier than that MTO very clearly and I only pre-rotated to 200.

 

[IgnacioParodi]

This is the report I was reading a couple of days ago about the Cavalon, they blame on the pilot

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/672b353e541e1dfbf71e8c0f/Rotorsport_UK_Cavalon_G-CKYT_12-24.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiT4Kzet9CJAxUQSWwGHUVHLKcQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0TpdxenSHhUfIJ2CcBGPcJ

 

[RogerB]

So the Magni is reliable, but outdated? like a Toyota who takes 15 years to be upgrade a car?
And the Cavalon is a state of the art design that tries to push the envelope too far and ends up being finicky and unreliable as a Land Rover?

Did I get it right?

Are you saying the fatal accident rate is higher on the M24 than the Cavalon? I know Magni has 1500 gyros flying and Autogyro about 2500?
But specifically to those models I don't know.

I heard of the Magni M24 catching on fire after a crash too, why haven't they redesign the fuel tank compartment and materials?

Anyways I appreciate the insights, I guess for the Cavalon is better to wait for an official statement from the company. I would be sold on the Cavalon just because of the extra space and a prerotator that allows true STOL capabilities, in contrast to the Magni that added bigger wheels and shocks and calls it Extreme or a STOL model, without improving the prerotator for shorter TO. ( I know they changed the materials, but just for durability)

Cheers

I am very interested in STOL flying so I’ve done a fair bit of digging on this and concluded that the Magni prerotator is better as is the heavy rotor blades for STOL. You can get the pre rotation up close to 300 and with the stick back whereas on the AG you have to release the pre rotator to pull the stick back and as soon as you do that and start your forward roll with the lighter rotor blades your rotor rom drops a lot negating the higher pre-rotation rom which you will now need to build back up in your roll.

 

[Abid]

I am very interested in STOL flying so I’ve done a fair bit of digging on this and concluded that the Magni prerotator is better as is the heavy rotor blades for STOL. You can get the pre rotation up close to 300 and with the stick back whereas on the AG you have to release the pre rotator to pull the stick back and as soon as you do that and start your forward roll with the lighter rotor blades your rotor rom drops a lot negating the higher pre-rotation rom which you will now need to build back up in your roll.

If your rotor RPM drops by going from forward to back more than 7 RRPM, its you and your technique. Obviously you are not moving enough to get the air through the disc. If you are interested in true shorter takeoff, work on that timing. Requires practice.

 

[RogerB]

If your rotor RPM drops by going from forward to back more than 7 RRPM, its you and your technique. Obviously you are not moving enough to get the air through the disc. If you are interested in true shorter takeoff, work on that timing. Requires practice.

I was more referring to being able to pre rotate AND start your roll with stick back AND prerotator still on in the Magni

 

[RogerB]

If your rotor RPM drops by going from forward to back more than 7 RRPM, its you and your technique. Obviously you are not moving enough to get the air through the disc. If you are interested in true shorter takeoff, work on that timing. Requires practice.

Please show me an AutoGyro or any other gyro that can do this , I haven’t seen it yet. This is the most STOL type flying I’ve seen a gyro do to date.

 

[Abid]

Please show me an AutoGyro or any other gyro that can do this , I haven’t seen it yet

Seriously? I was there when this takeoff was done. There was a bit of wind helping there too and this is a 915 engine. Here is a video of an AR-1 with just a 914 with a heavier pilot also with a bit of quartering wind

 

[RogerB]

Seriously? I was there when this takeoff was done. There was a bit of wind helping there too and this is a 915 engine. Here is a video of an AR-1 with just a 914 with a heavier pilot also with a bit of quartering wind

Ask and ye shall receive ay Abid, cheers!
I genuinely have never seen this clip, why was this never posted here or how did I miss it??

Ok, so did I see correctly that you are able to pre rotate with the stick back or did I not make it out in the blurry start of the clip? What kind of rpm are you able to get to?

 

[Abid]

Ask and ye shall receive ay Abid, cheers!
I genuinely have never seen this clip, why was this never posted here or how did I miss it??

Ok, so did I see correctly that you are able to pre rotate with the stick back or did I not make it out in the blurry start of the clip? What kind of rpm are you able to get to?

You shouldn't unless you really have to for short takeoff. Greg is the pilot and he did that quite often but it shortens the life of the U joint. You have to change it every 100 hours. Otherwise it can pretty much last a 1000 hours.
The clip was posted here many years ago and it was also on the website for a while.

 

[IgnacioParodi]

why bring tandems to the party

How is it being a passenger in the back? on planes is so uncomfortable...

 

[Abid]

why bring tandems to the party

How is it being a passenger in the back? on planes is so uncomfortable...

Pilots fly tandems. Passengers want side by side

 

[cmkwood]

Seriously? I was there when this takeoff was done. There was a bit of wind helping there too and this is a 915 engine. Here is a video of an AR-1 with just a 914 with a heavier pilot also with a bit of quartering wind

Notice at 2:19 and at 3:00 on the video in the M-16 xtreme that there is a stiff crosswind. The aircraft is able to stop (inflight) perpendicular to the runway at 2:19 and the dust blows across the parking lot at 3:00. There was significant wind during that flight but not down the runway, across it. I would encourage anyone skeptical to fly an xtreme model and then comment.

 

[Abid]

Notice at 2:19 and at 3:00 on the video in the M-16 xtreme that there is a stiff crosswind. The aircraft is able to stop (inflight) perpendicular to the runway at 2:19 and the dust blows across the parking lot at 3:00. There was significant wind during that flight but not down the runway, across it. I would encourage anyone skeptical to fly an xtreme model and then comment.

Comment about what Corey? The Xtreme has a 140 HP engine also.