S-turns

[Kolibri]

Vance, a free-castering trailing-link nosewheel with plastic discs shimmy dampener on a gyroplane definitely is Jim Vanek's technology.
Even after 30 years, it's still not only unique, but the best gyro nosewheel today. How sad that you cannot simply credit the man for it.

 

[Vance]

No Title

Vance, a free-castering trailing-link nosewheel with plastic discs shimmy dampener on a gyroplane definitely is Jim Vanek's technology.
Even after 30 years, it's still not only unique, but the best gyro nosewheel today. How sad that you cannot simply credit the man for it.

A short description of the choices for a steering nose wheel on a tricycle gear aircraft.

We have two main choices for steering; linked steering or free castering with differential braking. The debate on which works best is never ending and both are used on modern aircraft.

We have two main choices for suspension that includes steering; sliding elements like a modern motorcycle fork (a single slider is the most common on aircraft) or some sort of linked suspension. There are many variations of how to lay out the links and how to dampen the travel; a simple leading or trailing are the most common layout for the links. A bending element can also be used.

For a shimmy damper we have two main choices: a friction damper or a hydraulic dampener. A friction damper can be some sort of clamp or some sort of friction disk with a disk being the most common. A hydraulic damper can be a hydraulic cylinder pumping some medium or a circular thing with vanes.

Based on what little I know about the Sport Copter shimmy damper it is different than what we did on The Predator. The disk on The Predator is free floating, thinner and uses springs to maintain the pressure on the disk much like my 1930 Velocette.

Based on what I can see of the Sport Copter trailing link it is very different than what we did on The Predator.

I feel Jim Vanek is very innovative and I like the quality of the work he does.

He most certainly did not invent free castering nose wheels, disk shimmy dampeners or trailing link suspension.

I don't know if he is the first to try these three choices all together on a gyroplane.

I don't have the arrogance or enough time flying a Sport Copter gyroplane to pronounce they have "the best gyro nose wheel today."

A free castering nose wheel is my preference; that does not make it the best.

A trailing link without suspension damping would not be my first choice for a nose gear on a gyroplane.

A disk shimmy damper has some limitations. I would not use one on a road racing sidecar. It appears to me be acceptable in a gyroplane.

 

[EdL]

Interesting info - thanks.

/Ed

 

[Kolibri]

I don't know if he is the first to try these three choices all together on a gyroplane.

He was. I'd have thought you'd have known that.

I don't have the arrogance or enough time flying a Sport Copter gyroplane to pronounce they have "the best gyro nose wheel today."

Show me any other gyro which can be landed over 20 degrees crabbed and yet straighten out on its own.
It's practically newbie-proof, and eliminates runway incursions due to pedal hard-linked NW designs.

Instead of extolling superior gyro designs for safety, you continue to excuse the lamentably poor/simple NW raked forks of AG and ELA.
You express your "preference" for _______ without judgment. It's a very safe stance; I understand it.

I only mentioned the Sport Copter's superior NW because of the credible concern expressed by EdL:

By contrast, the Magni (and the AR-1 and the Titanium - and it even looks like WaspAir's A&S) have a trailing axle, which means the nosewheel tends to "auto-correct" on roll-out because of the craft's inertia. Which makes me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same? So many accidents I've read about appear to be directly related to that.

Can anyone help me understand why big players such as Autogyro and ELA have the nosewheel configuration they do?

Sure, "nosewheel design is moot if you have no speed when you put it down". But it's the cause of an accident if you DON'T put it down with no speed and the gyro darts off the runway because of the design. The accident reports sure seem to back this up. And when the accidents occur, they seem to be blamed on "poor pilot training/performance". I'd contend they're "poor pilot training/performance in a poorly-designed aircraft". Again, I'm at a loss to understand the benefit of the axle-forward design, especially in craft designed for low-time pilots.

I forecast that the safety disparity between most Euro-nosewheels and what Sport Copter has provided for 30 years will narrow (e.g., the TAG and AR-1 have begun to).
Meanwhile, I'll remember who did it first.

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[EdL]

Sounds to me like you’re just being argumentative - again. Hard to take your “info” seriously. It’s not substantiated, certainly not constructive and seems based on personal opinions more than actual facts you back up.

There’s a common theme here.

 

[Vance]

Show me any other gyro which can be landed over 20 degrees crabbed and yet straighten out on its own.
It's practically newbie-proof, and eliminates runway incursions due to pedal hard-linked NW designs.

Instead of extolling superior gyro designs for safety, you continue to excuse the lamentably poor/simple NW raked forks of AG and ELA.
You express your "preference" for _______ without judgment. It's a very safe stance; I understand it.

I only mentioned the Sport Copter's superior NW because of the credible concern expressed by EdL:

I forecast that the safety disparity between most Euro-nosewheels and what Sport Copter has provided for 30 years will narrow (e.g., the TAG and AR-1 have begun to).
Meanwhile, I'll remember who did it first.

Regards,
Kolibri

A runway incursion is an incident where an unauthorized aircraft, vehicle or person is on a runway. I don't know how a free castering nose wheel would prevent a runway incursion.

Every gyroplane I have flown will land 20 degrees misaligned with the runway and recover on its own. It is certainly the case with an MTO Sport, a Cavalon or The Predator.

It is possible for a pilot to prevent any aircraft from taking care of itself in any phase of flight.

To suggest any gyroplane is practically newbie-proof ignores reality. Sport Copter has not been accident free or newbie proof despite their low sales numbers.

The American Ranger and the Titanium Explorer do not have a free castering nose wheel and in my opinion are operating under a completely different set of compromises.

In my opinion the only thing we agree on is that Jim Vanek has done a lot of interesting things.

I feel your ego will continue to prevent you from learning.

 

[WaspAir]

Hey, Vance -
I wonder if you knew that the Air & Space 18A gyroplane, in serial production with a standard airworthiness type certificate in 1965, has a damped castering nosewheel steered by differential braking? It has those features and a nice suspension strut with a centering pin/collar when extended, as well.

Isn't it interesting how some people can invent things 25 years after they were in public use?

 

[Vance]

I thought it did J.R. but unlike Kolibri; I try to stick to information I have confidence in.

Thank you for the information.

I loved our flights together.

You really set Kolibri off explaining about ground effect.

He has collected a mass of data to misinterpret and in my opinion still doesn’t have a clue about how ground effect works. He appears trapped in a jungle of semantics insulated from learning by ego.

Ed has been managing him well.

 

[Kolibri]

I mistyped "incursion" for "incident".

Every gyroplane I have not flown will land 20 degrees misaligned with the runway and recover on its own.
It is certainly the case with an MTO Sport, a Cavalon or The Predator.

I guess you meant "I have flown" instead of "I have not flown".

In my opinion, for you to allege this of AutoGyro machines is irresponsible and dangerous, as some owner may try it.

Please share a video of you setting down a Cavalon 20 degrees misaligned with the runway, touching the nosewheel down either first or in conjunction with either/both of the mains.
That would be a dramatic airshow event.

The MTOsport landing tipover at 2017 Mentone wouldn't have happened in any Sport Copter.
Free-castering NW was subsequently the talk of the show.
It astonishes me that you cannot admit this notion, but you're a CFI teaching in other gyros so perhaps I shouldn't be astonished.

To suggest any gyroplane is practically newbie-proof ignores reality.

I'm sorry that you're incapable of reading and replying to something within its context, i.e. the nosewheel during take-offs and landings.
It makes for tedium dealing with you.

Sport Copter has not been accident free or newbie proof despite their low sales numbers.

(Oh, nice dig there.)
I've very thoroughly studied the Sport Copter accidents, and have found none that were attributable to poor design or materials.
Pilot error, all.
Can AutoGyro or ELA claim that? Celier? TAG?

______
The A&S18A is a certified gyro.
Great, but show me any E-AB gyro other than a Sport Copter with such safe and rugged landing gear (nosewheel in particular).

There is rarely anything "new under the sun" and what is often new about technology is the arrangement of the old.
I'd say that Jim Vanek has arranged several existing items (along with his own greased plastic discs) into a unique, safe, and highly effective nosewheel,
which certainly was no copy of the A&S18A.

_________

Sounds to me like you’re just being argumentative - again. Hard to take your “info” seriously. It’s not substantiated, certainly not constructive and seems based on personal opinions more than actual facts you back up.

There’s a common theme here.

EdL, you asked aloud for a gyro landing gear to reduce your training variables:

But for me personally the accident reports and anecdotes for gyros were just too telling. Way more departures from the pavement on landing for Autogyros and ELAs, in my opinion, than for Magnis. . . . And I know it’s at least partially a “training issue” but at my age and with my short attention span, I just like reducing the variables as much as I can...

. . . yet when I did so by explaining the Sport Copter nosewheel advantage, I get a snide reply from you.

As they say, "No good deed goes unpunished."

 

[EdL]

Here’s a thought, Kolibri: what if you put your poorly-informed, judgmental, argumentative posts in “Kolibri’s Korner” (a somewhat narcissistic corner of the chat) so people interested in coming to this chat to add to their gyro knowledge can choose whether or not to indulge in your poorly-informed, judgmental, argumentative approach? That would be most of your posts but at least they’d be all in one place.

 

[Kolibri]

EdL, I'd wager that I've got more Sport Copter time than even Vance.

How much gyro time have you in any Sport Copter?
Until you've made a few take-offs and landings in one, you won't understand the difference.
And I am the "poorly-informed" one here?

Why not take your Magni and plunk it down badly crabbed, nosewheel first, and report back.

 

[Vance]

As a flight instructor I allow clients to make mistakes so they can learn from them.

Teaching is about priorities and for me the priorities for landing are:

1. Being over the centerline.
2. Maintaining approach speed until beginning the round out.
3. Beginning the round out around 15 feet above the runway.

I like to finish with a flare but it is not as big a priority as the other three.

With these three priorities managed; I have not had a client touch down nose wheel first or at high speed.

In my opinion being aligned with the direction of travel is simply not that high a priority if the other things are managed.

I would probably allow 25 degrees misalignment with the runway before taking the controls.

At gyroplane events I often just watch people take off and land. In my opinion based on my observations many of the gyroplanes are landed more than 20 degrees misaligned with the direction of travel without mishap.

 

[EdL]

Kolibri - please drop your turds in Kolibri’s Korner. Thanks!

 

[WaspAir]

My 1930 Velocette had a friction pad for a steering dampener. The big knob on the top set the pressure on a spring just like The Predator.

Excuse the tangential question, Vance -- is that a K series in the picture?
Long ago a friend of mine had a Velocette Thruxton that I liked, but it was a few decades younger than your machine. He also had a much older Ariel Red Hunter, and a Vincent Rapide, and I was very envious of the collection.

P.S. The lead-lag hinges on the 18A blades are damped by vertical pressure on a stack of discs. I check and adjust the pressure when necessary as an aide in avoiding ground resonance.

 

[Kolibri]

At gyroplane events I often just watch people take off and land. In my opinion based on my observations many of the gyroplanes are landed more than 20 degrees misaligned with the direction of travel without mishap.

Including a wheelbarrow landing?
Including mismanagement of the hard-linked rudder pedals, and touching down the NW cross-controlled?
I trained in a Calidus; I clearly recall the landing challenges as a student. They're unnecessary.

Sorry, Vance, but you apparently don't have any (or enough) Sport Copter time to appreciate its landing gear benefits.
Thus, you continue these apologetics for the inherently more difficult and less safe raked and linked NW of AutoGyro, ELA, etc.
I urge you to experience the difference firsthand. EdL might believe it coming from you. :smile:

Regards,
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

No Title

Excuse the tangential question, Vance -- is that a K series in the picture?
Long ago a friend of mine had a Velocette Thruxton that I liked, but it was a few decades younger than your machine. He also had a much older Ariel Red Hunter, and a Vincent Rapide, and I was very envious of the collection.

P.S. The lead-lag hinges on the 18A blades are damped by vertical pressure on a stack of discs. I check and adjust the pressure when necessary as an aide in avoiding ground resonance.

The picture is not mine and it is purported to be a KTT. As I recall mine was a KSS.

I lost all most of my memorabilia in a house fire.

I also ran a sort of 1957 Velocette Venom in the desert district 37 races. I say sort of because it was rough.

I later moved up to a 1964 Triumph T120C for desert racing.

I briefly road raced a Velocette Thruxton of about 1968 vintage. The picture is not mine.

I also have some time road racing a BSA Gold Star Clubman in 500 production. The picture is very similar to the one I raced around 1970 I think it was a 1965.

I love singles with big flywheels and in 1975 finished first for the season in the AFM 500 GP on a home made single cylinder ESSO. The American Federation of Motorcycles was a California amateur based road racing club.

One of my favorite bikes was a Norton production racer, again not my bike in the picture but it looked very similar with lots of little racing tricks and the big single front disk.

I road raced from 1965 to 1989 and then focused on Bonneville till my mishap in 1995.

I have only dabbled in land speed racing since.

 

[Vance]

In my opinion Ed's Magni M16 is relatively insensitive to direction of travel misalignment on touch down and landing roll accidents are noticeably absent in the NTSB reports. I recall one wire strike and one engine out vertical descent.

A flight instructor friend of mine who trains in a Magni M16 did not like his experience in a Sport Copter and asked me to transition his client into the Sport Copter.

People make many mistakes landing without mishap despite your own trepidations Kolibri.

If you had problems landing the Calidus Kolibri; you were probably touching down with too much speed.

I like all of the gyroplanes I have flown and am always amazed at how out of shape they can get before I take the controls without an accident.

All of the Sport Copters I have flown were single seat so I have no time instructing in one. I have less than ten hours in Sport Copters.

I have transitioned two clients into Sport Copters with Jim's help. For my client with a Sport Copter II I trained him to private pilot and he received additional training from Jim Vanek. I did not fly his Sport Copter II.

 

[Kolibri]

EdL brought up the landing mishaps that AutoGyro and ELA are known for:

By contrast, the Magni (and the AR-1 and the Titanium - and it even looks like WaspAir's A&S) have a trailing axle, which means the nosewheel tends to "auto-correct" on roll-out because of the craft's inertia. Which makes me wonder why other manufacturers don't do the same? So many accidents I've read about appear to be directly related to that.

Can anyone help me understand why big players such as Autogyro and ELA have the nosewheel configuration they do?

Sure, "nosewheel design is moot if you have no speed when you put it down". But it's the cause of an accident if you DON'T put it down with no speed and the gyro darts off the runway because of the design. The accident reports sure seem to back this up. And when the accidents occur, they seem to be blamed on "poor pilot training/performance". I'd contend they're "poor pilot training/performance in a poorly-designed aircraft". Again, I'm at a loss to understand the benefit of the axle-forward design, especially in craft designed for low-time pilots.

I've been flying a Sport Copter II a lot lately, and Jim demonstrated how rudely and badly it can be plunked down without any drama, whereas a Calidus, etc. would tump over.
In fact, your student/SCII owner commented to Jim that the SCII suspension and NW saved him from a tip-over that day at VNY.
Many Sport Copter owners have expressed similar reports to the company.

How many gyros can be landed (i.e., including the NW) in a crosswind with rudder input, cross-controlled like an airplane to maintain runway centerline?
Very few.

A pedal linked gyro nosewheel is a common adjunct of the inexpensive raked NW fork.
It costs money and adds weight to offer differential braking (toe brakes, twin master cylinders, free-castering NW).
Few gyro customers know to insist upon it, and most of them are probably airplane pilots accustomed to toe brakes.
An ab initio gyro pilot, however, wouldn't likely know the difference. As long as their landing technique is a near perfect zero-rollout, they're OK.

But, as the 2017 Mentone MTOsport N571UJ landing tipover sadly showed, that NW design is always lurking.
This sort of accident needn't even be possible:

According to the pilot's accident report, when he touched down on the main landing gear, he applied "moderate" right rudder to maintain runway alignment and to avoid slipping. He stated he should have raised the nose to reduce airspeed, but instead he lowered the nose and struck the runway. The pilot explained that on this particular gyroplane, the nose wheel and rudder are interconnected; that is, the nose wheel does not pivot on a caster. When the gyroplane touched down, it 'jerked" abruptly to the right and tipped over. The pilot concluded, "This accident was the result of pilot error. There was no malfunction [of the gyroplane, flight controls, or engine]."

I suspect that the pedal-linked/raked NW will be phased out, as other companies catch up to 1989 Sport Copter technology.

Safe flying!
Kolibri

 

[Vance]

I looked at the last three years of gyroplane accidents in the USA reported to the NTSB (39) and I can only see one where the linked steering may have contributed to a tip over on landing.

From the NTSB report: "The sport pilot of the gyroplane stated that, upon touchdown, he should have raised the aircraft's nose to reduce airspeed; however, he allowed the nosewheel to contact the runway."

I read that as he didn't round out, touched down with too much ground speed and did not use the rotor to slow down.

From talking to witnesses at Mentone I suspect he landed with a tail wind.

Having experienced bad landings with clients in AutoGyro products it is clear to me that landing in an ELA or AutoGyro product is not as hazardous as some people imagine.

My challenge with this sort of gossip is that people don't focus on the things that are actually important to learn or decide not to fly at all because it is simply too dangerous.

I try to imagine a representative from an insurance company or someone from the FAA reading about the poor design and expect it is not good for any of us.

Please stop the gossip.

 

[EdL]

While I still do believe Autogyros and ELAs have higher mishap rates (“rates” - not just raw numbers), that’s strictly my opinion and I’m open to the idea that my impression reflects factors other than nosewheel design and geometry, such as just the volume of those flying, training differences (although there are some instructors who teach cross-brand, it SEEMS instructors TEND to teach mostly in one brand, especially for Eurotubs), etc.

I think Vance did a very good job of using facts to correct my belief that nosewheel geometry is the factor I thought it was. I was particularly impressed by the amount of trail in the Eclipse, once I better understood the concept.

I did my homework extensively for a year before I bought my Magni. It is my choice and I was actually very close to pulling the trigger on the AR-1, which I still believe is an excellent machine. But I’m not intending to over-promote the Magni - it was right for ME and may not be for someone else. I’m happy to share my personal opinions but am not interested in being a salesman. It’s a solid gyro, as are the AR-1, Titanium, Eclipse, and Autogyro products. All, including the Magni, have their pros and cons.

Please don’t misquote me or drag me into arguments you may personally wish to make by misrepresenting what I’'ve said or what I've since learned. Thanks.

ADD: To say "I disagree (or agree) with you about xxx" is fine and leads (hopefully) to good discussion, as happened earlier on regarding crosswind landings. To say "Doofus21 said xxx" and NOT express one's own agreement, disagreement, or other thoughts other than to try to push the issue to Doofus21 to defend their comments, is trying to be divisive and is just plain cowardly. That's particularly true when that's presented out of context.

/Ed