Russian

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
AnyBody Understand RUSSIAN??

Hey, Zeeoo; how is your Russian? What is going on in this movie, very strange. I think those Russians need some vacation time. They seem to have the same sense of timing as the British; very very long time to develop a scene. :confused:
 

Victor Duarte

troublemaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2004
Messages
1,715
Location
43 35 14 N 02 44 46 E
Hi thomas, i didn't understand a single russian word .... :confused:
but i feel this movie is a kind of paranoid kafkaian vision.. low, livid, dark..
i feel they better stop drugs :D
sorry , i don't know more.
cheers
 

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
Russian Flash

Russian Flash

Hi Victor,

I agree with you, very sinister. I have seen Russian movies in the past and they all seem to be dramatic, nothing light hearted or comedy. Got to get away from the serious stuff from time to time or find relief in a Vodka bottle. I like more sex less violence in movies. These flash animations are getting very interesting though, even the dark story lines have interesting graphics and backgrounds. :)
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
The title is "Vladivostock-Moscow"...

It says it more or less all.

For those who lack knowledge of geography, it is app. 2 weeks
by train...

The conversations are not very relevant to the story, the mood is...

There are more or less the girls dreams...

The magazine is "Commersant", business people magazine.

The text in the magazine is about the candidate for governor of the province.

The first title is "First catch of the candidate..."
The second title is "First victim of the candidate..."

The TV scene is on the comming election, public question to candidate,
about travel, candidate says, everybody should have the opportunity
to travel....

The train "stewardess" asks "7,50 for the tea"...

The girl: "I need a smoke, I need a smoke..."

On the platform: The candidate tells the girl:
"Thank you for your work, sorry, next time
we will arrange a plane for you".
The Girl: "No problem, I am not worried, I can rest a little"
Standing in the train door: "What can happend to me on the train...?"

Last sentence, after titles "Miss, what's the matter with you ?"

Now, try to find the sense yourself.

:)


PTKay
 

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
PTKay

PTKay

Thanks Paul,

Wow you are in Poland? This Internet is great especially if you can understand more than one language. I can understand some Spanish but only when it is written. I have found that I get an intimate understanding for the culture the more of the language I understand. There must be some cognitive link in there somewhere between language and cultural behavior.

The movie starts out dark with whispers and fades to black quite often with a monotonous train clatter. Her bag has fish in it and the candidate in the newspaper also holds a fish [symbol for Christianity]. She is a newsroom producer. She might be on assignment for the news agency. The long walk down the corridor passing many unopened doors [missed opportunities].

A long trip gives rise to introspection. At the end she takes on the look of the doll in her dream. The number 17 shows up at the end which has some significance but I´m not sure what. Something about the psych make up of those who leave home or travel to pursue a career in comparison to those who remain home and raise families.

When a film is hand crafted everything in it means something whether relevant to the plot or related to the one crafting the film. The producer has to reveal himself/herself in order to reveal the character. I have only gone thought the piece twice I am sure there is much in it that can be analyzed which is what the produce is wanting, I think.

Governments have to keep their constituents occupied or the population will turn on itself in order to create controversy which stimulates ones mind and keeps us all active and involved. The trick is being creative in the process; the alternative is self involvement, destruction, war and caos.

большое спасибо, Paul. :)
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Thomas,

thanks for your kind word, it was just a poor try.
I haven't used my Russian for years. Under Communist rule
we were all forced to learn Russian, and hated it.
Nowadays I also find it really usefull and intersting to be
able to understand this nation.
We (Polish) are in some way nearer to the nature of Russians,
(same Slavonic roots), but learning the language (especially the
characters) helps also a lot.

I know also very well German (made my PhD in Stuttgart),
and English (my uncle lives in LA), and I can only confirm,
knowing these many languages really enhanced my world
perception ability dramatically...

Paul
 

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
PTKay

PTKay

Paul,

You are truley a fascinating person. The most traveling I have ever done was with the Army. Most people I know in this area have traveled alot and I am always enamored by their stories of other places and other people. Most of my experience is midwestern, four seasons, farm country. The political Republican Party was started here in Michigan back after the Civil War so much of the population is still republican in their political expression. I am more center line Libertarian, middle class socioEconomic background.

I only have a BBA degree in Management and one in Aviation Technology which is a waste considering the job market in Michigan. Michigan is a manufacturing state and most of the corporations have moved out of state. The Governor of the state is a Canadian who has no clue or concern for Michigan/U.S. economics {my opinion}; she takes care of those Canadians though commuting across the border working in Detroit.

I hope we hear much more from you, Paul. I think your insight to many issues will be valuable to us all. How do the policies in Poland compare to the FAA here in the US? How is the new Russia working out? Do you have open borders there or are some places still isolated? Can you fly across borders? The U.S. is beginning to restrict aviation here making it harder and more expensive to participate in the flying community.

This terror thing we are having here has made many things more difficult but we were heading for the toilet anyway. The very rich are so far removed from the general population they are reaching God status which is a ruinous condition for all societies in all of history. I can't imagine working for people like Paris Hilton, but that is what it is coming to. Very rich 19 year old CEO's of major corporations making life changing decisions for us all. Of course I would not want old farts making decision either like in China, but that is just my opinion. I hear the Chinese government murdered off 200 or more dissidents for fear they might cause an unpleasant scene for the new year celebrations. Wow, and we think the Republicans are bad. :eek:

Thanks again, Paul, write more.

A fellow aviator who would rather be flying,
Thomas :)
 

Hognose

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2003
Messages
2,182
Location
Seacoast New Hampshire, USA
Aircraft
PA-28/J-3/various
Total Flight Time
Gyro - 2.5! FW, hundreds not thousands. Helo, 0 (some day!)
I agree with Paul and Thomas that learning languages opens many windows. And the internet makes it easier. I can maintain my German by reading German news magazines.

It helps to be young -- I am struggling with Arabic now, it is coming harder than other languages, plus I am trying to improve my Dari/Farsi, also hard. In my teens and twenties I soaked up languages.

The more technical a subject it is, the more language is common across all borders. I have trouble understanding spoken Russian, but no trouble with a manual for a MiG or an article in a military journal. Illustrations really help, too.

the more languages you learn, the easier they get... but the downside is, occasionally you think of the perfect word you need and get a blank look -- then remember that it is the perfect word all right, but in the wrong language.

cheers

-=K=-
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Thomas,

thanks for the kind words again.

Yes, I really did travel a lot.

Poland was kind of exception in the Communist Block.
We where the only nation never to have surrender to Germans
and NEVER having a government collaborating with the nazis in WWII.

Polish army (west and east) was the fourth biggest in WWII
(after SU, US and UK) on the allied side, so we were also
allies of the SU.

This (and the size of the country/nation) gave us this position
of relative freedom.

Already as a student I was in Switzerland, France and UK, until now
I have visited most of the European countries (except Italy and
part of Balkans). I know also US from NY, Virginia, NC, through
Iowa, Minnesota to LA, where my family lives.

This gives you really a kind of different perspective.

Flying in Poland. Just no problem. We are EU and NATO member,
so all our aviation rules are JAR, which is much FAR compatible.
Last year I made my JAR PPL(A), which I hope will be valid also in US.
Unfortunatelly, there are just a few gyros in Poland, and still no
clear rules about that, so I decided to buy a cerified AC,
Socata Rallye 150 T, great and forgiving plane, just perfect for
a beginner, dubbed "tin parchute". (It has automatic slats,
slated ailerons and full fowler flaps).
The stall characteristic of this craft is much like a gyro,
you descent 700 fps at 30-40 knts keeping wing level
and direction without any problems. In a criticall situation
you can go like this to the ground, risking your gear,
but certainly walking away unharmed.

Some more here:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2528

The airspace in Poland is relatively free, we have just
class E everywhere, and C in and around main AP.

The rest is s.c. "flexible airspace management". The military
zones can be closed only temporarrily and you just check
the day before, or the day you fly, which has been
"reserved", youd don't need to file any flight plan,
as long as you are not going to a controlled airport.

Especially the NW part of the country, at the beginning of which
my AP is located (EPMO, former military, now "status unknown"),
so I can fly at my will, around forests and lakes.
(But not less than 3000 ft over the National Parks, which we have
plenty of.)

There is a nice interactive map of Polish airspace here:

http://www.amc.pata.pl/index.php?lang=_eng&left_menu=menu_amc&top_menu=top_amc&opis=amc_info

(see under Charts - Elements of Airspace).

Situation with our airport is really funny, it's not listed in AIP,
so, formally, we are illegal there, but nobody cares, we have a 7500ft
runway, hangars rented from the Army, and more than two dozens
crafts flying in and out every day. We hav our own frequency,
try to keep order by ourselves and ATC respects us, and includes
our moves in their INFO services for the E class space (Warsaw INFO).

Really a pilots dream. Some pics here: http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1729

Will continue later...

PTKay
 
Last edited:

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
I did my training also on a Ralley, but an older one: SP-FRV.

Now I bought one for my own SP-FRA.

Some more pics of the area, the planes and airport here:

http://www.rotaryforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1728


About Poland, Polish aviation and history, there is a very
good book:

"A Question of Honor, The Kosciuszko Squadron:
Forgotten Heroes of WWII"
by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud

This reads like a fiction, but is all facts, Polish history is
really amazing. Will give you also some backgroud to the
complicated Polish-Russian relations nowadays.

If you want a more serious, and less "aviatic" story,
a perfect book is "Gods Playground" by Norman Davies.

Yes, the nickname "gods playground" for Poland is
really justified....


PTKay
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Kevin,

you are right, I think we are almost the same age,
and learning now, what we learned 20 years ago
would be a problem.

I am working now wityh a French company, visit them quite often,
but cannot force myself to start learning French.
I understand more or less what they say, an can
order a coffe in a restaurant, but our company working
language is English.

The other company I work together with is in Denmark, but since
I know very well English and German, I can guess most of the
written Danish (or Swedish, Norwegian).
(Spend also 5 monts in Sweden as a student.)

After few years of listening to them I can also understand most
of the spoken...

I know also most of the German dialects, from Siwss, Austrian to
Saxon and Platt (the latter being the biggest problem).

Spoken Russian is almost no problem for Polish people, there are
very many similar words, but unfortunately sometimes they have
completely different meanings (the same with Czech and Slovak
languages).

There are some jokes on it. The sentence in Russian (latin, fonetic):

"Sp'erva rozb'eriomsa a potom budiem dokazyvat'..."

Means in Russian: "First we will analyze and than make a proof" (math.)
while in Polish: "First we will undress and then play..." (no math.) ;)

Or: "Laska nebeska" means in Czech "Heavenly Love",
but in Polish just "Blue walking stick..."

And how to listen seriously to a Czech love song on "Laska nebeska"
in Poland. No way...

PTKay
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Thomas,

to answer your other questions: flying over the boarders.

As long as you are within EU, it's OK (more or less) insurances etc.

The former Soviet republics of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania are no problem
at all. Just few months ago the Warsaw Aeroclub made a trip with several
private palnes to Lithuania, (Vilna) without any problems, pure fun.
Lithuania was once (esp. Vilnus region) part of Poland, or in
Union with Poland, so there are still lots of Polish speaking people.

Different story with Bielarus, still and old "aparatchik" in power, if
you cross the boarder by accident (quite easy, flat and solid)
they will probably shoot first and then ask questions.

No idea, how it is now with Ukraina, after the recent changes should be
better, but under former president was lots of corruption, so
probably you can try to fly there, land and "bribe you out of trouble".

Some people reluctant to register their plane in Poland and pay all the
insurance/tax were registering in Ukraina and flying here, but after
few incidents, it came out, that they just probably bought their "papers",
(also licenses) for a handfull of dollars on a local marketpalce in Kiev. ;)

Avation in Czech is a national sport, they have over 2000 LSA, very
simple and clear rules, everybody can fly, going there from Poland is
no problem, similar situation in Slovakia.
"Vzduch je vshechno nashe moz'e" is their saying.
"Air is our ocean", they have no access to any see or ocean at all,
so really the only way to travel is up... ;)

And the Germans....

Densly populated, lots of airports, lots of rules... soooo....
Rather forget it. ;)

But Poland is big enough, so for the moment I prefer staying here.

BTW.: Polish ATCs since March 2004 are joined Civil/Military. And the
"flexible airspace" works just great. There are no "pure military" sectors,
where they will shoot you down, if you go there. If they want to do
something in one of these TSA (Temporary Segregated Area) or even
EPD (Danger Area), usually shooting ranges, they have to report it first
to AUP (Airspace Use Plan).
Same users of airspace as you and me. How nice.... :)

I think a little different that in US. ;)

PTKay
 

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
PTkay

PTkay

Hi Paul,

I am looking into those books you recommended. History in the U.S. is learned mostly through television programming. The main source of history lessons are documentaries and movies depicting events usually of the war. Except for U.S. history you have to select world history as an elective in secondary schools and most definitely at the universities. So most U.S. people will be ignorant of Polish history or European history in general; I guess the reason why I am so interested in your views is because there is a big blank in my mind where "America" and its values actually came from.

As I recall the Nazi's where very vicious to the Polish people and the Russian's were not so kind either. I have been around cruelty elevated to a national level and it is the most scary feeling one can have and anyone who could ignore that feeling and not fight against it and its causes would have to be almost insane either with fear or stupidity. (Americans are not the brightest color in the crayon box, but they are fearless.)

I look at the globe allot and even though the U.S. is a dwarf in size compared to Africa, South America and Russia the remainder of the European countries as a whole is very small in area. I really don't understand how people living so close to each other could be so different to the point of starting wars. Again, I am not too bright but I am fearless. And it is not like Europeans are very different from each other.

All the places I have flown were desolate where one can fly all day and not interfere with airspace or even have to talk with any authorities. So I am in wonder how difficult it must be just to go on a pleasure flight in Europe and be in constant awareness of flight restricted areas, altitude corridors and government controlled airspace; that would remove any pleasure from a flight. And then there is language to deal with crossing a national border which would be frequently viewing the size of each country.

I had to laugh at your predicament thinking in one language realizing you were speaking in another. You would almost have to have ATP experience just to be a private pilot there in Europe. As I said before, you are a fascinating person.


{German}
Ich spreche nur Englisch, aber ich habe Glück, einen Übersetzer zu haben, der könnte oder könnte nicht genau sein, wie würde ich wissen? Leider gibt es keine Übersetzung für das Polnisch.

Ein Mitflieger,

Thomas :D
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Thomas,

the German translator is not bad, the result is almost correct.
But the most computer translators make pure nonsens, as soon as you
go into some specific subjects, like aviation.

Try to make your translator to cope with a sentence:

"In the pattern I turned from downwind to base too short and had
to fight on the final to touch-down on the numbers."

or

"After landing I taxied over the alfa taxiway to the gate".

Wish you luck.
I bet it will be all mixed up...

As an excercise, (and as a check, you don't know German?)
let it be translated back to English. :)

Polish: no wonder you couldn't find any translator, the language
is to complcated for any computer program do make any reasonable
translation. We have 7 cases for nouns, changing their endings,
then the same problem with the verbs, different endings depending
on context (if you reffer to male, female or neutral subject), etc. etc.
And then also those extra characters:
żźćąęśłóń (if you can't see them, your PC needs Latin2 char-set)
and combinations like cz, sz, szcz, rz, each of them representing a
different sound... ;)

In some way, we are lucky with our language.

Any other one is easier to learn, maybe except Chinese. ;)

History: it is a national sport in Poland. Our history was so
complicated and intersting, that it's a subject of discussions
almost anytime and everywhere.

I know the situation in US, my cousins, although English, Polish, Irish,
Jewish mixture (therefore somehow interested in their roots),
are painfully ignorant compared with a junior school pupil in Poland.

I think, it's a part of the problem, that US has with understanding the world
around, which is not so simple, like the Great Plains after getting rid
of the Native Americans.

PTKay
 

greeny

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2004
Messages
178
Location
Mollis
Aircraft
Gyro DF-02 HB-YPS
Total Flight Time
600
Hi Thomas and Paul

Any other one is easier to learn, maybe except Chinese.
Compared with Finnish, Hungarian or Euskadii (Baskian), Slawic languages are not too difficult to learn. Let alone Chinese. What makes Chinese difficult is that you have to learn a completely new writing. That's why I admire Hognose's attempt with Arab and Farsi.
I did my bit with Bahasa Indonesia (Malay) and had a look into Tagalog. Simple grammar, lots of words to learn, but at least they use Latin letters.

In my place (Switzerland), there are four official languages: German, French, Italian and Roman. The latter sounds like a crossbred between Latin and Portuguese. German is not spoken here, only written. Our native language is Swiss. I do not consider this to be a dialect because it has - like Dutch - a grammar of its own. As a Swiss, you learn at least German and one of the other national languages in school. In my case this was French.

About the pilot's situation here: Switzerland is a tiny place (16'000 sqm.). The Alps make for half of the territory: lakes, rivers, forests, glaciers or barren rock. The other half is crowded. The typical American suburb is less densily populated. All airspace is at least class D, most class C and worse.
Not too difficult for a gyro, it just keeps (creeps?) below the bottom level. But a lot of problems for sailplanes which need altitude for X-country flying.
There is no such a thing as Ultralights or any other type of free flying here. The only possible way to go is Experimental. About two years ago (I guess by accident), somebody added gyrocopters to the list of aircrafts you are allowed to build. I am the first who wanted to build one. As a first step, I asked the Swiss FAA what type of licence one needs to fly legally. They are brooding over this difficult question ever since ...
Easy guess: I will need some mental strength to go through the process of filing a project and all the resulting bureaucracy. Building the gyro might be the fastest and easiest part of it ;-)

I started flying when I did my PPL in South Africa 32 years ago. That's where I learned some English. Later on, I worked or stayed in quite an amount of different countries. So, I added a bit of Spanish and Bahasa to the list.
For the last 25 years, I flew hanggliders and paragliders. I live in a valley in the Alps. Thus I have plenty of take off places within a few miles around me. Although, for the last few years, I neglected flying for climbing and hiking. I was comissioned by the Swiss Alpine Club to write its guide book about my region. For this, I had a lot of reconnaissance work to do. The book was finished last August and I will waste the money I got for the book on my gyro project. And likely a lot more than that ...

Peter Straub
 
Last edited:

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Peter,

nice to have you here again.

I can understand spoken "Schwitzer Duetsch", but to speak it myself,
I never made it... :(

I spent some time in Graubuenden, listening to Retroromanisch,
but really couldn't understand a word.

It's my dream, to fly one day in the Alps, I frequenly visit the
Schweizer Flegerforum, especially Flugberichte:

http://www.flightforum.ch/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=59

I have been to most of the palaces they show there, but only
on the ground. :(

Maybe one day...

PTKay
 

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
PTKay & greeny

PTKay & greeny

Hi Peter and Paul,

When I was in the military I had occasion to mingle with the upper social crust of the world. People who relax at the sky dome of the Hilton drinking expensive wine and discussing world affairs from a first hand perspective. I remember feeling quite dignified in their presence but I could only listen to their experiences traveling about Russia and other far off European places that I had only vague knowledge from books and movies. (Although I was dressed in the armies finest military dress blues my life experiences were one of long sweaty days carrying grunts, ground pounders and LRPs through the mountains and back woods; the smell of gun powder in my nose and ringing in my ears from artillery fire). I was a find decoration quite fitting for the occasion but little able to contribute to the dialog.

Even two years ago I would not be able to even express a friendly greeting to anyone not sharing the same language. But now these new first generation onLine translators have changed everything. They are still crude and will undoubtedly expand in their capacity as the successive generations of technology improve their capabilities. But I am now today exchanging my thoughts with other people of the world. I think these translators are the best device ever to join people in the progress of cooperation around the world.

You guys can speak languages of people in places I have never heard of and gain intimate knowledge of people far away involved in world events. The world is open to you and with these translators I can get a glimpse of what is going on. I feel I am finally part of the conversation or at least capable of understanding the conversation. However, I am not naive to think I could write an essay or anything more than a single sentence or two using the translator. I know exactly what you mean, Paul, by the double meaning problems.

Regarding border problems there in Europe, please excuse my ignorance but I get very little news about Europe unless there is conflict there. So my understanding of current events or historical events is quite limited. I do know that significant advancements in aviation came through Germany and Russia. I do think Europeans have a similar miss guidance in regard to U.S. history as well. Many seem to think Europeans "invaded" North America and irraticated the indigenous people.

"I think, it's a part of the problem, that US has with understanding the world around, which is not so simple, like the Great Plains after getting rid of the Native Americans".

The fact is that the Native Americans were very adept to their environment. They had the entire country to themselves and until the Spanish arrived the only mode of transportation was on foot. It takes six months to traverse from Michigan to Florida and about a year from east coast to west coast. Many tribes sent runners out continuously to various areas of the country bringing news and invitations to their "brother" tribes.

In Kalamazoo there were three tribes who resided in the area. The Algonquine were the largest, the oldest and were involved mainly in trading goods. The Pottowatomi were the youngest tribe and involved in farming while the Miami were mid range and involved in hunting and trapping. Along with having permanent residence here in Michigan the Miami traveled south annually to Florida. Along the way they had favorite hunting and fishing spots and planted crops along their route. To the natives the entire country was their home.

The Europeans were also adept to their environment which was quite different. They developed ships that could span the ocean. The Vikings traveling by means of their current technology in ship building met with the Aleut tribes traveling by migration in Greenland. In that case technology failed to save the Viking settlers but the Aleut tribes living closer to the earth survived.

The Europeans view land as a commodity that can be parsed, owned and protected; they built fences and established ownership. They did not travel but rather built cities, industry and communities. This is in stark contrast to the life of the Natives who, for the most part, were migratory. All "Americans" need to adapt; the Natives refused.

Christianity provides for rules of conduct, no stealing, no murder, no cheating etc. The natives had no rules. They took what they wanted, wandered at will and respected no property rights. They were, in effect, primitive. Human nature provides that a community without regulations will grow to a population of about 50 individuals and then it will divide. So most tribes remained small and spread out through the entire continent.

It was a natural process that unless the tribes conformed they would eventually be pushed out of their power positions and moved to lesser populated areas. The same process took place in the British Isles where the now Irish/Scot population was pushed to less desirable locations by newly arriving immigrants implementing new technologies. In Japan the Ainu were displaced by the same process.

There are still many Native Americans around, my Aunt Stella is a Cherokee.

We Americans are not really bad. :)
 
Last edited:

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Thomas,

sorry, if I was misunderstood in my statement, you cited.

It was never ment as "bashing" Americans. Just a statement of fact, you also
confirmed. Now the Great Plains, with no boarders
(since US bought the Louisiana Teritory from Napoleaon)
are easy to travel in any direction, no fighting, no wars,
mayby some crime, but ceratinly much less, than in huge metropolis
of the West or East coast.

For over a century nobody was killed in a war activity on the North American
continent. This is what I meant in comparing your point of view,
living in Michigan, and mine, living in Poland. Almost everybody in the parents
generation of my family was involved in war, my mother spending time in
Nazi concentration camp, and my father in Soviet gulag.

This makes a difference in attitude to history. I am not evaluating attitudes,
I am just stating a fact.

As I wrote already before, also my cousins in LA have no clue of the history
of Europe, although their father (my uncle) also spent 2 years in a gulag in Siberia,
was fighting in the Battle of Britain and was not able to return to his home country
beacause of the Communist regime. Their mother was British, so they got just
a little clue of the UK history, but (I assume) more as a part and background
of the US history, than anytning else.

Regarding translators and languages. Of course an internet translator is better
than nothing, certainly opening a lot of new opportunities.

But I think you miss the clue. We can communicate now on this forum, not
because of the translator, but because Peter and me learned English,
and it's good so. In middle ages there were also more or less no "national"
boarders in Europe, but the most important thing was, there was Latin,
"Lingua Franca", a common language of all nations, at least educated people
across Europe.

If we like it or not, English language is developing to a modern "Lingua Franca".

It is already a universal language of science and technology, in spite of all the
efforts the French are making to stop this trend. (It is sometimes rediculous,
when the whole world is using words "computer" and "program" and they
still insist on "ordinateur" and "logiciel".)

So I think, you are in much more lucky situation, than we are. Your mother
language is spoken by more and more people around the world, and even if
you don't know any languages, you will have more and more chance to learn
other people and other countries.

The social structure. I am biologist an geneticist, and what you say about the
social structure of Native Americans is still very true until now, for biological
reasons.

It has been proven scientificaly, that human brain can memorize and recognize
not more than 150 human faces. In our airplanes we have now moderd "FoF"
(Frien or Foe) system, but this inherited ability to recognize faces was the
ancient FoF system for the humans. Knowing all the 50 members of your clan,
and most of the 100 potential enemies was a question of survival.

But above this direct recognition of individual faces, there were inherited fears
of general cathegory of humans, looking generally different than the members
of your tribe (clan). Big or small eyes, noses, color of skin or hair, was the reason
to discriminate FoF. Unfortunately, this inherited subconcious mechanism is still
very active in human brains. We are still a stone age tribe dressed up in suits.
We still tend to hold to 50 of our look-alikes, or people we know, and reject
everybody looking (speaking, dressed) differently, for no rational reason.

The ability to follow such a conversation, like ours, over the continents,
using a common language is the only way to get over all this prejudice
and atavistic fears.

I am getting academic here (I used to teach at an university for many years),
so forgive me, but again, I am far from puting labels on people or nations...

Paul

BTW: What I miss in the forum editor, is a "spell-check"... ;)
So frogive me my spelling mistakes... P.
 
Last edited:

Thomas

Gold Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
747
Location
Dade City, Florida
Aircraft
Bell 47.204.205.206.212, Hiller 12a, Hughes 300.500, Sikorsky S76, Cessna 150.210.310
Total Flight Time
1830
PTKay

PTKay

Hi Paul,

Please forgive me my ineptness in approaching a subject and you should feel no need to apologize for any statements you make. I have learned a great many things just in these few short transactions over the forum. I keep in mind also that many others read what transpires and I try to address questions that might be on others mind, as well I know you are doing by being direct with your understanding of historical events in addressing my failings of history.

I realize we are able to converse in English here but even here some others revert to a native language and I am thrilled to be able to understand the comments; although I feel as though I am eavesdropping. Just knowing that this tool is available gives me confidence to reach out; without it I would certainly sit back silently.

The natives did suffer a "trail of tears" in many parts of the country and you are correct in knowing that the reservations located in Oklahoma (Great Plains) was their final destination among others. I am also sure that prejudice was a major contributor to these events and the legal system at that time was unbalanced and corrupt in their protection. I can also understand your view point now, knowing what attrocities your own relatives endured under what might have been similar circumstances.

At the time there was great fear of Native Americans and not without cause; however and allowing for some exceptions, there was not mass genocide (as far as I have been taught) as perpetrated by the Nazi. When the historic tides turned in European people found useful endevours and continued on becoming prosperous, yes?. Some say the tides for the Natives has never turned but I must draw exception to that assumption.

Many tribes are exceedingly wealthy today and could conceivably still join their foces to become a major political power, but they do not. They are still trapped inside their own prejudices and blame much of their condition on past history. Even those of greater station and notariety find comfort in blaming history for their negative outlook on life [Prof. Churchill is a current case of hatred for the U.S. within the borders] It is difficult to overcome trajedy especially when it springs from hatred and prejudice but the people of Poland and other European nations must be prime examples of the human spirit to succeed regardless of the obstacles. If they are not, they should be and they are in my mind.

Most of my relatives live in Detroit and that area has a very large representation of the Polish culture. Almost all of my cousins are married into Polish families so I do have some insight into the emotional structure of Polish/Americans as well as Cherokee/Americans. I have to say I love the people and I admire the fortitude of Poland and it people.
[I have to say that because my cousins are very strong ........ just kidding. :) ]

P.S. No need to apologize for spelling, you have a better hold on English than I do. I should apologize for dominating so much of your time but I am fascinated by your views. I know you would most probably much rather be flying.

Thomas
 
Last edited:

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
You are right, after I've learned flying (it was my childhood dream,
but because of glasses, I could realize it 30 years later) every day
I cannot fly - is a lost day. But unfortunately since few days we have
snowstorms, and today a splendid 0/0MET FOG, visibility 100 ft :)

So the internet is my window to the outside world at the moment.
Being able do discuss opinions with people across the Big Pond is
(almost) as big pleasure as flying. ;)

You are right. I don't know if you realize, that Chicago is the second
biggest Polish city. Warsaw (Poland), 1.500K, Chicago (US) 900K
Lodz (Poland) just 700K. ;)

Even my (high) school mate lives in Chicago, works and Fermi Laboratories
and hunts quarks on the cyclotrone. World is small.

I have learned something about you from your web page, and I must say,
I am a little shocked, that a person with such backgroud has problems
finding a job. I also looked to the thread "What do you do for living" and am
amazed, how many times people in US had to chenge their jobs,
places they live and even proffesions.

With the social net in Europe nobody is so flexible, unemployment
money are so high, that nobody would bother moving or changing
qualifications to get a job.

I think, this is a great advantage of the US working force against
Europe, but sometimes I wonder at what cost...

I also had to move from science to business, but more or less
in the same field I studied, or made my PhD, and it was my
free decision out of free will and interest, not from economical
necessity.

But I still don't know, what is better, French, with their 35 working
hours week, or US with permanent stress, but much higher effectivity...

I will drop my daubts to the other thread as well, to see the opinion
of the others.

Paul
 
Top