Rotor Blade Balancing and Tracking

okikuma

Member
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
3,145
Location
Santa Clarita, CA
Hello Everyone,

Here are some interesting videos on balancing and tracking rotor blades I've come across. to start the discussion.

Wayne

Rotor Blade Balancing Homemade Helicopter


What I especially like is how these gentlemen build a dedicated rotor blade fixture to spin the blades up the rotor blades to test for tracking.


Helicopter Vibrations and Resonance Bell H-13

 

GyroChuck

Gyro's are more fun
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
3,872
Location
Naperville, IL
Aircraft
SnoBird Tandem Gyro, Robinson R-22, Mosquito XE-285, Assorted Fixed Wing
Total Flight Time
2400
I found the videos interesting.

Currently my new to me Mosquito. Gets a side to side cabin shake when I lower collective to lose altitude. This is when A/S is still above 50mph so it isn't ETL.

It was suggested I try correcting spanwise balance. I made an adjustment but it has been way too windy for my comfort to fly it. Hopefully later this week the weather will cooperate.
 

Loren Jones

Gold Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2022
Messages
538
Location
Minnesota
Aircraft
Own Cherokee 180; Built award-winning Gyro Technic GT-VX2 with 912iS; Looking for training gryo
Total Flight Time
10,800+ (and still counting!)
Denis Shoemaker at Gyro Technic has built a similar test pit for his Razor Blades. He attaches a red and blue LED to the tips which is readily visible in flight. It's a pretty cool process to watch. I watched him track and tweak the blades for my VX-2. I have a video I'll try to post shortly.
 

Loren Jones

Gold Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2022
Messages
538
Location
Minnesota
Aircraft
Own Cherokee 180; Built award-winning Gyro Technic GT-VX2 with 912iS; Looking for training gryo
Total Flight Time
10,800+ (and still counting!)
Here's the video of Denis tracking my blades. If you look closely you'll see the red and blue leds on the tip of the rotor.

 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
5,898
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 560 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes. Pilot Airplane
Denis Shoemaker at Gyro Technic has built a similar test pit for his Razor Blades. He attaches a red and blue LED to the tips which is readily visible in flight. It's a pretty cool process to watch. I watched him track and tweak the blades for my VX-2. I have a video I'll try to post shortly.

I tried doing the lights and not in a pit but on the tips of the blades while flying down the runway in calm conditions. they work but the best results are with a dynamic balancer because perfect optical tracking does not always provide the best tracking numbers on a balancer
 

Loren Jones

Gold Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2022
Messages
538
Location
Minnesota
Aircraft
Own Cherokee 180; Built award-winning Gyro Technic GT-VX2 with 912iS; Looking for training gryo
Total Flight Time
10,800+ (and still counting!)
I tried doing the lights and not in a pit but on the tips of the blades while flying down the runway in calm conditions. they work but the best results are with a dynamic balancer because perfect optical tracking does not always provide the best tracking numbers on a balancer
This is the preliminary balance process. They'll get the final balance once on the aircraft.
 

Loren Jones

Gold Supporter
Joined
Aug 3, 2022
Messages
538
Location
Minnesota
Aircraft
Own Cherokee 180; Built award-winning Gyro Technic GT-VX2 with 912iS; Looking for training gryo
Total Flight Time
10,800+ (and still counting!)
I tried doing the lights and not in a pit but on the tips of the blades while flying down the runway in calm conditions. they work but the best results are with a dynamic balancer because perfect optical tracking does not always provide the best tracking numbers on a balancer
After thinking about this, wouldn't doing it while "flying down the runway" skew the results since you have an advancing and retreating blade? Would this type of balancing need to be done stationary??
 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
5,898
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 560 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes. Pilot Airplane
After thinking about this, wouldn't doing it while "flying down the runway" skew the results since you have an advancing and retreating blade? Would this type of balancing need to be done stationary??

Absolutely not. What is the use of tracking in a static unloaded condition at zero forward speed?
You want to track with the blades coned to the point which is representative of typical flight condition and at speed represented of typical operational speed. If you are unloaded like in that pit, your tracking is basically of very limited use because you will never be in the condition except in pre-rotation. I guess it is a starting point but I just go directly to balancing and tracking with a dynamic balancer and save me the time. If you install the blades from one set of rotorhead to another, the tracking is going to be off. If one teeter tower to another, the tracking will be off even if you machine the teeter tower teeter bolt hole within a thousands of an inch. The teeter towers that are multi-part where plates are secured with bolts to the base. Forget it. Every time you take them apart you will be 3000's off so each time you disassemble it and re-assemble it you need to dynamically track it. Tracking will change from one speed to another. You may track for 60 mph dynamically for a certain weight and then fly at a very different weight at 80 mph and find that there is a tracking issue. We track and balance AR-1 for 70 knots as we find it a good compromise. Anything slower and faster slowly gets worse from there.

Another sort of a myth is tracking remains ok if you keep using teeter bolt as the bearing surface. AutoGyro uses bushings in the teeter tower that are not completely closed, meaning they close at a cut as they are pressed in the teeter towers. The bushings then are greased and a bolt is used as the bearing surface that rides on that greased bushing. How in the world is that going to ever hold its tracking is puzzling to me. It will hold for a bit I guess till bolt wears and then you are supposed to quarter turn the teeter bolt every 10-12 hours and then your dynamic tracking could be gone.
Magni rotor head design had no way of adjusting tracking till they started using the eccentric bushing for the teeter bolt. For decades they went without any real adjustment for tracking possible to the best of my knowledge. If you got one that was at the edge of machining tolerance rotor head from Magni, you could be stuck with a shake you would not be able to adjust unless you re-drilled the teeter bolt hole or something. Spanwise and chordwise adjustment may make a little difference but in a limited way.
Basically lots of myths in the gyroplane world have existed. The way you can track helicopters on the ground, you cannot do that with gyroplanes. It does not work. You have to be at flight rotor RPM with representative coning and load at representative airspeed.
 
Last edited:

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
6,507
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1, A&S 18A, Phoebus C, SGS 1-26A, etc.
Total Flight Time
rather a lot
Ultimately, you want the blades flying the same path in flight. If retreating or advancing makes a difference between the blades in the path taken, you have work left to do.
 

Gyro Technic

Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
136
Location
Kasota, MN
Aircraft
Gyro Technic GT-VX1 & GT-VX2
I was afraid Loren's video might lead to many questions and assumptions.

In no way does this tracking method simulate the blades in flight!

The blades are only spinning at about 2/3 flight RPM.
There is no load or coning on the blades.
There is no asymmetrical lift from forward movement.

What it is.... A starting point.

With many (most) of the blade sets we have produced, the customers have reported silky-smooth flight conditions right out of the box.

I know the tolerances on my blades, our test stand, and our rotor heads.

However, you install a precision set of blades on a rotor head that is not running concentric, then all bets are off.
The only way to dial-in a set of blades is with in-flight data collected with them mounted on the machine of which they will be flown.

Denis
 
Last edited:

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
5,898
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 560 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes. Pilot Airplane
I was afraid Loren's video might lead to many questions and assumptions.

In no way does this tracking method simulate the blades in flight!

The blades are only spinning at about 2/3 flight RPM.
There is no load or coning on the blades.
There is no asymmetrical lift from forward movement.

What it is.... A starting point.

With many (most) of the blade sets we have produced, the customers have reported silky-smooth flight conditions right out of the box.

I know the tolerances on my blades, our test stand, and our rotor heads.

However, you install a precision set of blades on a rotor head that is not running concentric, then all bets are off.
The only way to dial-in a set of blades is with in-flight data collected with them mounted on the machine of which they will be flown.

Denis

Smooth out of the box is very deceiving Dennis.
Watch this video of what people will say smooth out of the box on an AR-1. Well this is an untracked rotor blade set. I had to go from here and get the tracking within acceptable range of below 0.12 IPS
It is possible to hide the stick shake even with unbalanced and untracked rotors within reason and think you have got smooth rotors while your mast and rotorhead are taking on fatigue and swearing at you with every turn they make. People always mix stick shake alone with balance and tracking and that is right many times but not always.
Your bolt on Aluminum tubing structure has an advantage over steel alloy welded structures. It absorbs vibration like a sponge so people flying Aviomania or Dominator or even your machine structure may get little vibration passed on through to them but it does not mean that their rotors RTB is great. It could be quite high but you do not see it because each joint in the system is moving to absorb it away. But that is also causing fatigue. The way to find out is to put a multi-axis dynamic balancer on and take a measurement and then many of these people's jaw will drop because their perception could be way way off.

 
Last edited:

Gyro Technic

Manufacturer
Joined
Jan 4, 2018
Messages
136
Location
Kasota, MN
Aircraft
Gyro Technic GT-VX1 & GT-VX2
The way to find out is to put a dynamic balancer on and take a measurement and then many of these people's jaw will drop because their perception could be way way off.
Abid....
You are correcting me on items we AGREE upon! :)
The only way to dial-in a set of blades is with in-flight data collected with them mounted on the machine of which they will be flown.

Denis
 

Abid

AR-1 gyro manufacturer
Joined
Oct 31, 2011
Messages
5,898
Location
Tampa, FL
Aircraft
AR-1
Total Flight Time
4000+ 560 gyroplanes. Sport CFI Gyro and Trikes. Pilot Airplane
Abid....
You are correcting me on items we AGREE upon! :)

Yeah I know. I am mostly commenting so many of the users of gyroplanes get a clue because trust me many are lost on what Rotor Track and Balance (RTB) in a gyroplane is and does and what it effects. All they know is my stick shakes or my cabin hops and automatically they assume that that is 100% due to RTB and nothing else and more importantly just because their stick does not shake they believe 100% that their rotors are perfectly balanced when the measurements would show they are off by 0.7 or 0.8 IPS when the level could be below 0.12 IPS measured right at the rotor-head. I used to correct each person. Now I just usually roll my eyes and nod yes yes and move on.
 

Mike G

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,825
Location
Lillebonne France
Aircraft
Owned Magni M16 now ELA 07
Total Flight Time
550FW + 500 gyro
It would be great if the average gyro owner had access to the tools to do this.
I’ve written here many times, the cheapest dynamic balancer for gyros is the Smart Avionics PB4 at about 1400 US dollars. A second hand PB3 (its predecessor) is sometimes for sale on the internet and I’ve seen it for prices around 500 USD, you might even find a second hand PB4.

As I’ve already said many times here, unless you’re out in the sticks and on your own don’t buy one yourself but get a group of you to share the cost, because most people will never get enough use out of it to justify the investment.

Learning to use it requires a fair bit of commitment and you need to be fairly tech savvy especially connecting telephones/ipads by wifi to a non-internet device. You need to take the time to read the manual (probably a couple of times) and download the simulator/tutorial from the Smart Avionics website to start using it.

Training is available but needs to be organised for a group to cover travel expenses.

Mike G
 

Mike G

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,825
Location
Lillebonne France
Aircraft
Owned Magni M16 now ELA 07
Total Flight Time
550FW + 500 gyro
Ultimately, you want the blades flying the same path in flight. If retreating or advancing makes a difference between the blades in the path taken, you have work left to do.
WaspAir
Traditionally tracking in the helicopter world means getting the "blades flying the same path in flight" as you say. However modern electronics has allowed us to measure and demonstrate what many old time helicopter mechanics kept telling us that "the smoothest ride often results from a track split".
You don't have to believe me here are 3 quotes from Enstrom, Robinson and DSS micro who are pretty well established in the helicopter world and probably know what they're talking about.

Here is a quote from an Enstrom document called “Tracking Main Rotor Blades “.

General: The purpose of tracking the main rotor blades is to obtain a smooth ride. This is accomplished by adjusting the blade track to reduce vibration. An out-of-track condition will produce a vibration, usually a one per rev which is felt as a vertical vibration. However, for the rotor system to be smooth, it does not necessarily mean that the blades are flying in the same plane. With the advent of digital tracking equipment it has been found that the best ride is not necessarily a condition of the blades flying in plane, but in a track that gives the least magnitude of vertical vibration.

Here is a quote from a Robinson document called “Helicopter track and balance theory

The term "rotor track and balance" is somewhat misleading, in that "track" or "tracking" refers to adjusting the blade tip paths to make them fly in the same rotational plane. This does not always result in the smoothest ride. Some airframe and blade combinations will ride smoother with a "track split." The desired end result of the track and balance job should be the smoothest possible ride.”

Also from DSS.......https://www.dssmicro.com/theory/th_hist_rotor_smoothing.htm

Tracking using Vibration Sensors Users found the track conditions of the rotor directly related to vibrations in the airframe. Experimentally it was found that the vibration information could be used to adjust pitch links and tabs to produce minimum vibrations at all forward speeds. After this process was complete, the blade track could be measured optically and surprisingly the blades were not in perfect track! This lead to a quandary... do we want perfect track or minimum vibrations?
Is Tracking of any value? In the process of using these tracking methods and measuring the vibrations that resulted, users found that "perfect track" rarely produced minimum vibrations. Various theories have been proposed to explain this effect. One theory is that each blade has a slightly different shape, twist, flexibility etc. and only by putting them slightly out of track can these variations in lift be compensated. Another theory is that each blade produces a "turbulent wake" that the trailing blade must fly through. If alternating blades are set to fly high and then low, each blade will have "calmer air" to fly through resulting in smoother flight. This effect is more pronounced on aircraft with four or more blades on the main rotor.


The RTB procedure that I developed for Smart Avionics PB3/4 users tracks the rotors using vibration during the balancing process.

Mike G
 

Smack

Re-member?
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
920
Location
Georgetown
Aircraft
Kitfox IV / F1 Rocket / Magni M-16 / Beech 18 / Aviomania G2sA-2
Total Flight Time
550+
Mike, thank you for the detailed post correcting the previously spouted misinformation.
Funny, you've posted much the same information before, yet, the old wives and their tales persist...:rolleyes:
 

Sv.grainne

Super Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
2,031
Location
Kerrville, Texas
Aircraft
Aviomania, G1sB Genesis
Mike:

Thanks for the additional info. There are a few gyro pilots within a 200 mile radius that might be interested in using a pb4. How would I obtain one?
 

Mike G

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,825
Location
Lillebonne France
Aircraft
Owned Magni M16 now ELA 07
Total Flight Time
550FW + 500 gyro
Mike, thank you for the detailed post correcting the previously spouted misinformation.
Funny, you've posted much the same information before, yet, the old wives and their tales persist...:rolleyes:
Smack
It's unfair to talk about old wives and misinformation. Before the recent cost reductions due to the electronic revolution (and if you haven't access to a dynamic balancer) tracking visually was/is the only solution and is still used in the helicopter world today. The technique I developed to track gyro rotors during balancing only works for 2 bladed rotors so for multi-bladed helicopters visual tracking is still used a lot. Other balancer manufactures have developed other techniques using lasers etc to visually track in flight.
Mike G
 

Mike G

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Messages
1,825
Location
Lillebonne France
Aircraft
Owned Magni M16 now ELA 07
Total Flight Time
550FW + 500 gyro
Mike:

Thanks for the additional info. There are a few gyro pilots within a 200 mile radius that might be interested in using a pb4. How would I obtain one?
Sv.grainne
Contact Mark Burton at Smart Avionics.co.uk. His website has a fair amount of information.
Mike G
 
Top