Rotax 582 Blue head failure

WHY

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From reading some of the posts, it sounds like this has happened at other times as well. Does anyone know if it is the same rod all the time ?? There would seemed to only be three possibilities, lubrication problem, metalurgy, or design. At any rate, Rotax has got a problem on their hands. I can see the lower rod bearing going first in a lubrication problem because it "rotates" while the upper bearing just moves back and forth, on that basis I would pick lubrication. Also "rust" will cause "arcing" and pitting more so than bluing which again is back to lube.

Tony

Tony
 

Russ Hobbs

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Bernard, are you going to rebuild your engine? If you decide not to rebuild let me know if you want to sell.

Russ
 

Fl90

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No Mike, Red is doing fine. I just had a low EGT on the PTO cyl. and didn't know if it was lean or rich, so I kept it at the lowest possible throttle setting till I could look at it. Didn't find anything too far out with the plugs, but the bowl levels were different. Getting it back home, I had a loss of power when throttling back, rich PTO cylinder and fouling the plugs. It's time for plugs and a cleaning, anyway.
 

Doug Riley

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None of us wants to believe that these things just fail at random. Only Hirths do that (?).

Bernard, would you care to share some history of this engine? Do you use pure synthetic oil? Has the engine sat unused for awhile at any time, with or without fogging? Might the bearings have rusted?
 

bps

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None of us wants to believe that these things just fail at random. Only Hirths do that (?).

Bernard, would you care to share some history of this engine? Do you use pure synthetic oil? Has the engine sat unused for awhile at any time, with or without fogging? Might the bearings have rusted?
Hi Doug,

Believe me, I am THE most interested in what happened. I bought the engine new three years ago and installed it, and have flown consistently since then. June will be three years that it has been flying and I have 260 some hours on the engine. It has only seen Pennzoil air cooled oil, and since I've never let it sit long, its never been fogged. Even when weather might have been bad for a stretch, its been started and run.

When we dismantled the engine, we looked for anything that might have caused the bearing to fail. That's the point I have been trying to make about the conidtion of the cylinders, head, and pistons. The tech, a 20 yr guy, thought everything looked normal, and I didn't see anything to suggest otherwise. The one rod bearing was the only thing that looked bad (the top ring was thrown due to this and the top of the piston had minor damage from this). The tech was surprised that we didn't find more damage and his assessment is that my engine seized very quickly, and therefore didn't cause more damage. This was not so much of a piston seizing as the bearing causing the rod to seize. The seized bearings look cooked but no visible sign of issues with any other bearings.

I know we'd all like something to hang this on, but the conclusion of my Rotax certified tech, and Lockwood, is that it just failed. Lets face it, there is a TBO because these things do wear, even under the best of circomstances. If I were at 360 hours, I don't think anyone would question the failure and would chalk it up to being over TBO. TBO's are of course based on data compiled by the manufacturer, but all engines have examples of units not making TBO. I was close. I did find in my searches others who experienced rod bearing failures with about the same hours as mine. That does give me some pause.

Anyway, the engine is being rebuilt, and frankly, I'm looking forward to getting it back so I can fly.

Bernard
 

Earthboundmisft

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Twenty years old AND 'certified'... hmmm. One last question Bernard, and I'm out;
Answer honestly please, is there any aluminum 'smeared' onto the cylinder walls?
What I am referring to is up, and down streaks of aluminum on the walls of the cylinder
that got tore up. Thanks, Mike.
 

bps

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Twenty years old AND 'certified'... hmmm. One last question Bernard, and I'm out;
Answer honestly please, is there any aluminum 'smeared' onto the cylinder walls?
What I am referring to is up, and down streaks of aluminum on the walls of the cylinder
that got tore up. Thanks, Mike.
Dude, I think you've been out for a while. I've reported everything honestly and have no reason to do otherwise. I report that that we found the bearing was seized and your response is "jury is still out" and that you think it originated at the top end of the cylinder. Of course you can tell better from your keyboard than we can from tearing down the engine. I still can't tell from your earlier response if you have any clue where the needle bearings are in the 582. Maybe you should pass the bar exam before going in front of a jury.
 

WHY

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Hi Bernard

Well I think I found that report that you looked at about the rod failure on the big end. Posted by "Beaver Shaver" ??? on --rec.aviation.hombuilt ??? His post was Sept.19 2006.

He states knowing of 3 such failures "ALL THE SAME ROD" on PTO end and that they seem to begin (how they know ??) with the failure of the thrust washer on the PTO end, did not say whether it was a crank washer or one next to the bearing (if there is such). If his research is correct then it would seem to be specific to that particular rod, all engines as you stated have around 250 hrs. Would be interesting to know if this has happened to any 582's that are gas mix rather that injected since all of the failures he mentioned were injected. I can't guess any further since I don't have a 582, I got a feeling the cure for this is going to have to come from the field or Rotax would have cured it before now.

Tony
 

bps

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Hi Tony,

That is one of the ones that I found, but one correction, the three he talks about were the mag end, and mine was PTO. Earlier in this thread, Phantom talked about a big end failure with one of his customers, and I wonder which cylinder seized in that case. In my case, the bearing did not come apart, but froze. The bearings were black. You could barely get the rod to move. As lack of lubrication could cause a bearing failure, that's why I reported that the tech looked at the cylinders, head, pistons, and case to see if there were any other signs of lubrication issues.

Bernard

PS BTW, Earth, I didn't win anything. I got to land in a field, spend the evening trailoring my plane back (with Ultracruisers major help), and now have a overhaul bill I'll have to pay. I thought people may be interested in what we found so I posted the results. You, however, haven't let facts we found get in the way of your conclusions. In hindsight, I wouldn't have posted over here.
 

phantom

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582 blue head failure

582 blue head failure

I have seen this type of failure on both mag and pto rods and I have seen a few that were caught in the nick of time where there was no damage to anything but the cage had broken but was still in place and doing it's job
Norm
 

dabkb2

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I have seen this type of failure on both mag and pto rods and I have seen a few that were caught in the nick of time where there was no damage to anything but the cage had broken but was still in place and doing it's job
Norm
Norm, what were the symptoms, and how were they caught? Any insight would be great. thanks
 

WHY

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Hi Bernard for that correction about "both" rods and now that just leave one question, ----has this happened to anyone using mix gas rather than injected, otherwise this is really serious because the "Blue head" is probably one of the most popular engines Rotax has made in the two stroke.

Tony
 

Russ Hobbs

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Bernard

Thanks for the reply. We all appreciate your sharing your findings. If a mechanic with 20 years of experience can't pin point what happened I think you almost have to chalk it up to an early failure and move on. Thanks again,
Russ
 

GyroRon

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One thing is certain..... no way in the world would I still be using oil injection if this was my engine and plane. I am not certified in any way, but I do have 16 years experience around these engines and my opinion is this was a oil related issue. especially considering the fact that the cable going to the pump from the 3 way splitter was faulty.

This engine also had some other issue going on with it to have had such a contrast in color on the plugs from the front and rear cylinders. One set looked almost too lean, the other set too rich. Could be jetting, a slight air leak, or could be signs of issues with the oil injection.
 

gyromike

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Can the oil injection fail on one cylinder only?
And if so, wouldn't it leave evidence on the cylinder walls and piston?

Just asking.
 

Doug Riley

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I can't imagine that, if oil were cut off, an anti-friction bearing would be the first thing to let loose. You'd think that a relatively huge sliding part (the piston and rings) would melt down first, non?
 

phantom

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582 blue head failure

582 blue head failure

on the engines that were found with broken cages, there was no sign of trouble, the owners were planning a long cross country and wanted a complete inspection before the trip, this has been on both oil injected and premix engines. an engine with a broken cage will run with no problems until a small piece breaks of and locks something or allows two or more rollers to get together then you have only a few seconds of power left.
Norm
 

Doug Riley

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Has unexplained big-end bearing failure occurred in other Rotax models that use the same bearing? Only 582's? Only Blue-head 582's? How about 532's, 618's and/or the smaller engines (assuming those models use the same bearing)?

The answer might isolate the problem as either a 582 design issue or a bearing-quality issue.
 

gyromike

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I can't imagine that, if oil were cut off, an anti-friction bearing would be the first thing to let loose. You'd think that a relatively huge sliding part (the piston and rings) would melt down first, non?

I would think so Mon Capitan', since it it closest to the source of heat.
Same for an air leak. It ought to overheat the piston first before the bearings ever get hot enough to let go.
 
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