Rotary Forum Meeting at Bensen Days

RockyMeLad

Curmudgeon-in-Training
Joined
May 27, 2004
Messages
1,175
Location
Las Cruces, NM
Aircraft
Desert Bee (Gyrobee)
Total Flight Time
320
Smoke Screen

Smoke Screen

Required disclaimer: The following is my personal observation and opinion only, and does not necessarily reflect the views of the Forum or it’s administrators. :p

Most people have been confused by the “smoke screen” (pun intended) issue. The smoke generated by various people (including the trikes) probably should have been placed either down-wind or above the spectators. Catfish did clarify this point and there was agreement by ALL present at the pilot’s briefing, so there wasn’t a “smoke generation” issue.
The only “smoke” issue was the smoke screen cleverly generated by someone who had a personal vendetta against most of the members of this forum. The name calling and accusations at the pilot briefing were in character for this individual. He has a long history of ignoring reasonable scientific and empirical knowledge based on “his” assumption of the truth (because his “assumed” truth is consistent with his avoiding litigation and the potential personal loss due to that litigation). He has consistently responded to concerns about the unstable aircraft he promotes, not by any logical or valid arguments, but simply by out-shouting and degrading anyone who even questions “his” viewpoint. He may be a “good” pilot (he’s still alive after hundreds of flying hours in an unstable aircraft). He may even be a good instructor (I have not personally flown with him, but several people have quit flying with him supposedly due to his abrasive manor and/or use of an unstable aircraft). He might even be a nice person (the odds seem to improve for those who kiss his a--, rather than disagree with him, although that may not be unique to him). Yet with all these “good” traits, he remains and arrogant proponent of unsafe design and practices (the old military saying of “a good defense, is an aggressive offense” comes to mind).

After this disclosure I should probably acquire a more flame retardant garment than the orange nomex I normally wear flying. :rolleyes:
 

StanFoster

Newbie
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
16,880
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
Total Flight Time
1250
Many of us have reasons at time to be pieved at other people. It just seems to me it would make our forum better if they were kept more to private e-mails. I regret having even said a piece of my mind as it just stirred the pot a little more. What little I said should have also been in private. I wont do it again.


Stan
 

GyroRon

Former Gyro know it all
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
16,500
Location
Fort Mill South Carolina
Aircraft
Dominator gyro, Titan Tornado plane
Total Flight Time
1300+
Let me also tell you that Someone.... there was only a handful of people at the Wauchula airport when I took off ..... Called the FAA and reported to them my Tail numbers and told them I was flying without a rotorcraft rating and that I was a dangerous pilot. This person told the FAA that I had taken off with 3 other gyros and all 4 were headed to Sun-n-Fun.

Now I already had a idea who this was that called it in when I heard about it earlier this week, But when I heard about it earlier the info I got was third and fourth hand info and I was told this person called Bill directly - Bill runs Chopper Town at Sun-n-Fun - and there was no mention of the FAA. There was a rumor going around that I got kicked out of Sun-n-Fun over this phone call so I called last night to my friends there to see where this rumor is coming from. I left Sun-n-Fun on my own accord and left Sunday afternoon, a day before Bill even got the phone call. Anyway, talking to Roy who was standing next to Bill when he got the call, it was confirmed the call came from the FAA who was notified of my apparently lack of rating and dangerous flying by someone who was there at Wauchula and saw me takeoff with the 3 other gyros. who do you think would do such a LOW thing as call the FAA on a fellow pilot.

Had I stayed at Sun-n-Fun I would not have been told to leave according to Roy and Scott Lewis who both talked to Bill after the call, and had the FAA questioned me that would have been no problems as I am 100 percent legal without a rotorcraft rating and "dangeous" flying..... Well hard to enforce something based on one persons phone call when there is 4 or 5 other people who would argue against that. But bottom line there is a few things in life you just don't do no matter how mad you may be at a person... and trying to get a fellow pilot in trouble with the FAA is about the lowest thing you can do.




Yeap people all I can say is watch out, for if this crap can be done to me, it is only a matter of time before they do it to you. If you ever " bashed" someone here, or said your opinion and it didn't jive with others opinions you too may get a call to the FAA on your behalf.....

I will try to say no more about it. I don't need the hassle or agravations.
 
Last edited:

StanFoster

Newbie
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
16,880
Location
Paxton, Il
Aircraft
Helicycle N360SF
Total Flight Time
1250
Ron: I am trying to understand both sides......I will just stay out of it...I wasnt there and I guess I am telling myself its none of my business. I just am not skillful enough with words to properly say what I am thinking. So....my mute button I will PRESS>>>>:D


Stan
 

chuter

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,731
Location
Piedmont, OK
Aircraft
original design tractor gyro
I am totally out of the loop on this; not personally knowing any of the parties, nor was I at Bensen Days, but one thing I have experience with is grief.

It is possible that the accident the day before the meeting being discussed contributed to this person's inappropriate behavior. Grief comes out in odd ways. Maybe these 2 deaths were a heavy load on this person in some way we'll never know. Or they may have just ramped up his already irritating personality.

Don't know, just something to consider.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
15,593
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2200+ in rotorcraft
I like Jim Logan. I have flown with him and in my opinion he is a good instructor. The maintinance on his machine is something I admire. I have never heard him disparage compeating designs or horizantal stabilizers.

He has been accused of things in public in many non constructive ways.

I was not at the pilots meeting so I don't know just what that looked like.

I expect that the FAA understands the licencing rules. If I see someone endangering lives, including their own, I would do what I could to change their behavior, including, as a last resort, calling the FAA with clear articulate observations. I would be clear, so they could decide what action to take as my understanding of safe flying might be flawed.

I did not see Ron do anything that looked more dangerous than Gary.
I enjoyed watching both of them fly and admired their skill.

I can see why people watching the event might feel that some aviation protacol was not followed.

I hope that we can all move toward more constructive comunication and safer flying.

I enjoyed the show a lot and had my first flight in a Dominator. I found the open design even closer to my dream of flight than an enclosed autogyro. I found that the feel of the wind was especialy alluring and informative.

Thank you, Vance
 

Aussie_Paul

A reforming stirrer!!!!!
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
4,441
Location
Ballarat Australia
Aircraft
None at the moment.
Total Flight Time
Since 1982 Gyro 5000+ mostly instructing, and approx. 200 fixed wing in the late 1960s.
GyroRon said:
Yeap people all I can say is watch out, for if this crap can be done to me, it is only a matter of time before they do it to you. If you ever " bashed" someone here, or said your opinion and it didn't jive with others opinions you too may get a call to the FAA on your behalf.....

I will try to say no more about it. I don't need the hassle or agravations.
Now you know how I felt over the last couple of years Ron!!!!! Fellow aviators without the guts to front directly, BUT go via the back door. They are usually jealous egotistcal people.

In many areas like this, the world is not becoming a better place.

Aussie Paul.:(
 

Harry_S.

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
5,649
Location
Ocala, Florida
Aircraft
RAF2000
Total Flight Time
2000+ hrs.
RayPierce said:
RAF was there then too....something has changed or something has been left out?

What is going on?

IMO...No more "Charlie Presnell" on the scene.


Cheers :)
 

GyroRon

Former Gyro know it all
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
16,500
Location
Fort Mill South Carolina
Aircraft
Dominator gyro, Titan Tornado plane
Total Flight Time
1300+
Look I don't want to be further caught up in this mess. Everyone here knows I like to give my opinion and I don't hold back, but I am really holding back on this one.

I will go with Chuter and agree, after what happened to Terry and Bill everyone was confused and slightly on edge. That could have played a factor in what happened at the briefing. But the call to the FAA was uncalled for, and the only reason I can see I got the FAA called on me is because of what I have said and shared here on this forum has made me a easy target. Alot of the rest of you have said things as well so just watch out as you might be next is all I am saying. And before this is twisted out of context, I personally would NEVER stoop this low, if I have a beef with someone I will handle it in a way that keeps everyone out of trouble with the law, so don't take what I have said to mean I am going to start reporting people.



Harry, your right. No airboss and Catfish ends up overwhelmed with work at Bensen Days and you end up with some rules being broken or bent and in some cases general chaos. Catfish can't do everything there. From what I was told, Scott Lewis and Roy are both going to take turns as Airboss next year, so maybe next Bensen Days will be better.
 

RayPierce

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,325
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
Aircraft
GyroBee
Total Flight Time
More than 20 less than a million.
Charlie Presnel

Charlie Presnel

Harry_S. said:
IMO...No more "Charlie Presnell" on the scene.


Cheers :)
Charlie was there when I observed McGowan and Goldsberry doing their maneuvers over the runway. I assure you it was not in any such manner as observing most traffic patterns of any airport.

I have heard Steve mention how he has been chewed out by Charlie.
That leaves me wondering just what the heck Steve was caught doing.
I am not saying anything negative about Steve for I love the man to death.
Steve was relating his first ass-chewing from Charlie with the utmost respect for the man.

Again I will say that what I've heard described here on this forum is no different between the three of them.....with Charlie and without.

So what is the beef? Who is it that is that has the beef and let's see if a working solution can be had by all parties involved.
If what had happened to me what has happened to Ron, I and my lawyers would be seeking some sort of legal action for false allegations made to a Federal enforcement agency.

It's time to put this to rest.
 

PW_Plack

Active Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
8,476
Location
West Valley City, Utah, USA
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex 582
Total Flight Time
FW: 200 Gyro: 51
Making the FAA your first call is a definite low blow.

There's no false allegation involved in the report that Ron was flying without a rotorcraft rating, just an intentional effort to exploit a misunderstanding to make Ron's life difficult. There are MANY FAA folks who forget or never knew that an ASEL can legally fly an experimental gyro without passenger.

As for the "flying dangerously" part, that's not purely true or false, just a matter of the observer's personal perspective. The kind of flying which happens commonly at gyro fly-ins, horsing around in the pattern with other aircraft, flying too close, confusion and crowding during ground operations, etc. would be characterized as "dangerous" by most general aviation pilots, IMHO.
 
Last edited:

RayPierce

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,325
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
Aircraft
GyroBee
Total Flight Time
More than 20 less than a million.
It was retribution pure and simple.

It was retribution pure and simple.

PW_Plack said:
There's no false allegation involved in the report that Ron was flying without a rotorcraft rating, just an intentional effort to exploit a misunderstanding to make Ron's life difficult.
There was a false allegation that it was illegal. Small difference I'll admit but that instructor should have known better!
PW_Plack said:
There are MANY FAA folks who forget or never knew that an ASEL can legally fly an experimental gyro without passenger.
Shouldn't an instructor be aware of that? He reported Ron nonetheless.
PW_Plack said:
As for the "flying dangerously" part, that's not purely true or false, just a matter of the observer's personal perspective. The kind of flying which happens commonly at gyro fly-ins, horsing around in the pattern with other aircraft, flying too close, confusion and crowding during ground operations, etc. would be characterized as "dangerous" by most general aviation pilots, IMHO.
Agreed.

My point is it was retribution pure and simple. Does anyone doubt that? All any observer will have to do is hang around a day or so and he will see violations.

Catfish...Mary Jane....ya'll have a tough job with all those crybabies. I don't envy you one bit. My hat is off to you both.
 

Timchick

Tim Chick
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Messages
10,888
Location
Panama City, Florida
Aircraft
Sport Copter Vortex, 582 Greyhead
Total Flight Time
~30
PW_Plack What spectators? Do gyro fly-ins care if any show up? [/QUOTE said:
Paul,
Quite a few spectators do show up and sit under the Oak tree to watch the gyros fly. Some were regulars and some were first timers. I didn't think to ask some of the first timers I talked to how they heard about the fly-in.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
15,593
Location
Nipomo,California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2200+ in rotorcraft
I am trying to understand this, please correct me if I am confused.

Ron heard a rumor that someone called the FAA. He believes he knows who it was. Nothing came of it. We are now speculating on how bad it was based on Ron's assesment of the rumor. Ron feels it was conected to the rudeness at the pilots meeting. We all feel that calling the FAA first is not best practice.

Have I missed something?

Perhaps we can put this to bed now that all the facts are on the table.

Thank you, Vance

PS. Ron types faster than me and said it better first.

PPS Sorry, The American Helicopter Museum doesn't open till noon and I am killing time at Kinkos responding to things I would normaly leave alone. I will be quiet now.
 
Last edited:

RayPierce

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,325
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
Aircraft
GyroBee
Total Flight Time
More than 20 less than a million.
The facts mam.

The facts mam.

Vance
I agree. Let's state what the facts are. Did Ron hear a rumor?

Did anyone at the FAA talk to any manager at Sun N FUN about Ron's legality or safety? Did they report Ron's tail number or not?
Names please....Ron has since deleted the posts he made.

I have found out that using the Freedom of Information act that the name of the person calling into the FAA making the complaint can be found. Just need to fill out a few forms.

Now the question is did it happen? Was Ron reported to the FAA?
Was Ron reported to anyone in control at Sun N Fun?
If it didn't happen then it is as you say......then it is a rumor.
If it did .....then it isn't a rumor and a lot of people have bad information in their minds about Ron and his legality to fly.

Okay....is it rumor or not?
Facts only please.
 

Rotornut

Platinum Member
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Messages
1,490
Location
Alva, Florida all year flying!
Wow.. Just read all these post. There is plans already in the works to have a More Detailed Pilot Briefing and Pre-Flights before flights each day.

Spirling landings omg, Guess Steve McGowan cannot land!

MJ :)
 

GyroRon

Former Gyro know it all
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
16,500
Location
Fort Mill South Carolina
Aircraft
Dominator gyro, Titan Tornado plane
Total Flight Time
1300+
I left SunnFun late Sunday afternoon and drove to friends of Shannons who live near Greg Spicola and spent the night. Monday morning we were on I-75 at 8 am.

Around 2pm Tim Verroi - the gyro pilot who has a paintball gun mounted to his Dominator gyro - called me as I am now driving through Georgia on I-95. He asked me what my tail numbers were and I gave them to him. He said that confirms what everyone thought.... He then told me that someone with a complaint called Bill the manager of ChopperTown and reported that the gyro with my tail numbers had flown into Sun-n-Fun with 3 other gyros on Sunday and that the pilot flying this gyro was a Dangerous pilot and would likely kill someone if allowed to fly there. I was told the called did not give his name to Bill. I discussed it with Tim and decided it was not a big deal since I wasn't there anyway and I have had to deal with these kinds of comments from people for years. So I went on with my life....

Then Friday Greg Spicola calls me and asks me to clear up a Rumor he had heard. He said David Seace was at Sun-n-Fun and asked someone why I wasn't there. He then said Dave was told that I was kicked out of Sun-n-Fun because of the phone call Bill got.

I got bothered that what was already embarrassing to me had turned into a completely untrue Rumor.

I then called Scott Lewis who I knew would know something about all this and knew he was at and had been at Sun-n-Fun the whole week. He didn't have much to say other than I shouldn't be worried about it and that this phone call would not have resulted in me being kicked out or asked not to fly.

I was still digging for more info and Scott decided to put me on the phone with Roy. Roy is the Airline pilot who flew a white Dominator look a like gyro with the Rotax 912 engine and he has Red Skywheels Rotorblades on it. He does the fancy vertical descent landings at Bensen Days and most anyone who was at Bensen Days should know the gyro.

Anyhow Roy told me he was standing beside Bill when Bill got the call. He and Bill talked about it right after Bill got off the phone. According to Roy, it was the FAA who called Bill, not the person who called in the complaint. Roy then told me that the FAA called to tell Bill that the gyro with my tail numbers was reported to have flown into ChopperTown with 3 other gyros on Sunday afternoon and that the pilot of the gyro with my tail numbers was flying without a proper Rotorcraft rating. Then the part about me being a dangeous pilot was brought up.

This all I know. Apparently since I was not there and Bill is a busy person trying to run ChopperTown and live his own life, there wasn't much more discussed about it. But of course there had to be enough discussion somewhere about it for Scott and Roy to know about it. And then Mike Bantum had to have been filled in on it as he is who told Tim Verroi about it.... And then something had to have been said from someone to David Seace for him to know anything at all about it even if he got the wrong version of the story.

So there... That is what I know and all I know. I may try to call Bill in a few weeks after he has time to unwind from the fly-in which is still going on right now I might add. Otherwise I am not too worried about it other than it would have caused me un-nessary hassles had I had still been there, and it makes me look bad to the group there at ChopperTown. If the FAA wants to contact me and question me I am here by the phone as I am legal to fly my gyro and I can get 100+ people to counter any claims that I am a Dangerous pilot and that I would kill people if allowed to fly.



Funny thing about the whole thing is of the 5 gyros that were at Sun-N-Fun last Sunday - one was trailered in - only two of them had gyro ratings... 3 of us have only airplane ratings. And all 5 of us basically perform the exact same manuvers with our gyros, so it would have been just as fair to say if I was " Dangerous" then so were the other guys. But the complainer apparently had a Axe to grind with me only and I was the one the call was about.
 
Last edited:

automan1223

Banned
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Messages
3,760
Location
Oriental, North Carolina
Aircraft
2p Tandem Air Command "Big Red"
Total Flight Time
250
Faa Does Not Care

Faa Does Not Care

I dont know Ron, I called the FAA over the suspect fuel at wachula. Their response was (yawn), (yawn again)

"Call them yourself"

No notes, no holy stuffings. We should get on this right away, someone could have an engine out.........

I would not worry about them.

The only thing you can do is look out for yourself and others and hang tight and together.

Jonathan
 
Top