Risk, and the optics of tyrogyros posts regarding all the fatal accidents.

TyroGyro

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The gyro's strengths are also its weakness...

It seems too many think "safe(r)" means "invulnerable", "easy", "teach yourself", "Ignore ADM", "show off", "James Bond gadget", etc.


"Just think how stupid the average person is; then remember - 50% are even more stupid than that..." - George Carlin​
 
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Abid

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My point is simply that the numbers seem to belie the fact that gyros are safe or safer than fixed wing aircraft, though they should be.
Leaving out engine out situations, the main fatal pilot mistake in a fixed wing is a stall spin, getting too slow, close to the ground. Though gyros can't stall, getting behind the power curve close to the ground can kill you almost as quickly as a stall. Gyros then have other characteristics related to having a spinning rotor that will get you in trouble as in negative G's, blade sailing etc - seems like there are a few extra things to think about in gyros versus fixed wing.
Any aircraft is safe if one 'just learn to fly it and fly it well.' The question is which is safer if one screws up.

I think if training is proper and pilot decision making is proper Gyroplanes are safer. The problem is the pilot population coming into Gyroplanes. They are much older and their primacy is usually airplanes. Same sense of controls but different usage
 
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loftus

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I think of training is proper and pilot decision making is proper Gyroplanes are safer. The problem is the pilot population coming into Gyroplanes. They are much older and their primacy is usually airplanes. Same sense of controls but different usage
You may be right, but it maybe then comes down to workload or 'thoughtload', which of course can be more challenging for older pilots. In a fixed wing there's not that much to think about except not getting too slow to stay safe, in gyros there may be more variables to have to worry about.
 

Greg Vos

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My point is simply that the numbers seem to belie the fact that gyros are safe or safer than fixed wing aircraft, though they should be.
Leaving out engine out situations, the main fatal pilot mistake in a fixed wing is a stall spin, getting too slow, close to the ground. Though gyros can't stall, getting behind the power curve close to the ground can kill you almost as quickly as a stall. Gyros then have other characteristics related to having a spinning rotor that will get you in trouble as in negative G's, blade sailing etc - seems like there are a few extra things to think about in gyros versus fixed wing.
Any aircraft is safe if one 'just learn to fly it and fly it well.' The question is which is safer if one screws up.
If one screws up as you say? Nothing is safe.
is a gyro safer than a fw ? If you consider it’s manoeuvrability and slow flight characteristics and ability to land with ZERO FORWARD SPEED then I would rather be in a gyro than a C182 or a 210 or a Rv..if we have a engine issue cos non of those land slow and they need a smooth or relatively smooth surface to execute a safe uneventful landing.

A Gyroplane by comparison could land on a brick field and the pilot should walk away with no damage to him or his pax.
Try that in a Fw touching down with say 30-50 Knots? Suddenly the plexiglass and your nuts are arguing ..

it’s assumed in both cases the pilots have been suitably trained? I have done around 400 hours in Fw aircraft prior to getting into Helicopters (I flew C152’s Tecnams inc the x299 as well a bit of time in the 182)
out Of the three IMO the gyro is safer as it has less moving parts no flaps to set up or other things to consider, no collective to drop and to arrest on the way down to avoid a head over speed ..in a helicopter once you enter autorotation you need to be mindful of the rotor speed, in a Robbie it will quickly run away so now your not only looking for a safe place to land your pulling collective to keep the rotor in the green arc, with light rotors it can quickly decay but then it’s just as easy if you have height to put the rotor speed back ..( adding this comment for those who bash the Robbies myself having done over 600 hours in them) in the MD 500 autorotation is swift, and the narrow cord blades make for exciting spirited autorotation compared to the 206 as Wasp says the bell 206 is a docile machine in autorotation ….all the time while announcing your intention and position and briefing your pax not forgetting your looking for a suitable spot to land….( and why are you not subconsciously doing this every 15 seconds)
in the humble gyro landing is as easy as it was yesterday engine no engine wind no wind …much less to concern yourself with

is gyro safer? Well IMO yes provided you fly it within its design envelope ..I make these comments having flown all three

autorotation in a helicopter can be described as stressful…in a gyro we fly in autorotation and again IMO the least stressful of the three, no safer in the hands of an idiot as it was said to me by my one gyro instructor back in the day it will kill just as quickly
the issue is are the accident statistics blurring the lines ? I believe we need to consider what statistics don’t reveal
 

JohnS

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I think everything about gyroplanes is the best and the fun-est. Except if the blades hit something the whole machine comes unglued and the press calls it a "catastrophic crash from which the pilot was extricated". Even though you only broke the landing gear.:rolleyes:
 

Andino

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I am looking at the forum, and it occurs to me that Tyrogyro has posted a huge amount of fatal accidents from all over the world (all in Caps no less!)
Now I am not saying we shouldn't be reviewing these sorry cases to glean all the info possible. We certainly should.
Some might think that it looks bad to a new person thinking about getting into Gyro flying. That maybe they will see fatal after fatal accident from all over the world and possibly be discouraged from trying to persue flying gyros.
What do you guys think? Is this a good look for our tiny community? Does it affect us by scaring off potential pilots/buyers?
For me persaonally, I think this a is a good thing.
Any prospective gyro pilot needs to understand they are putting themselves at FAR greater risk of death or serious bodily risk flying Gyros then other types of flying.
Theres a host of reasons this is so, but do accident discussions help prevent other accidents? I am not sure.
It's a tough one to quantify.
How many of the pilots who bought the farm had read about accidents themselves? I would say most if not all of them.

What do you guys think? How much more dangerous is gyro flying then other sports? Base jumping? Motocycle drag racing? Where do we sit in the risk meter?
Deaths per participants ratio?
How would you even rate it?

Just wondering ...

When a seasoned, mature pilot flies a professionally well-designed gyro, there is not much safer in the sky. The trouble is that we've a dearth of either. I believe that gyro accident posts can have value. My only objection to some of Tyrogyro's accident posts has been in regards to his frequent choice of wirestrikes, such as:


 

TyroGyro

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My only objection to some of Tyrogyro's accident posts has been in regards to his frequent choice of wirestrikes, such as:

[Cough]
My "frequent choice" may be because wire-strikes are, in fact, the single biggest killer of gyro-pilots... [about 20% of all fatals]

I don't "choose", btw. I report the facts, of all accidents.
 

Andino

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Vance

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I find value in studying wire strikes.

I find value in questions like how high were the wires? Where were the wires? Why didn’t they see the wires before they hit them? Was it part of an emergency landing? What could have been done differently?

I find the answers to these simple questions useful.

The fact that wire strike accidents continue to happen suggests to me that people forget about the dangers and there is value in the reminder.

I have two examples of wires that are particularly hard to see that I use as part of flight gyroplane flight instruction.

Most of my clients are surprised at how difficult wires are to see and how the poles are often obscured.
 

Andino

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I find value in studying wire strikes.

I find value in questions like how high were the wires? Where were the wires? Why didn’t they see the wires before they hit them? Was it part of an emergency landing? What could have been done differently?

I find the answers to these simple questions useful.

The fact that wire strike accidents continue to happen suggests to me that people forget about the dangers and there is value in the reminder.

I have two examples of wires that are particularly hard to see that I use as part of flight gyroplane flight instruction.

Most of my clients are surprised at how difficult wires are to see and how the poles are often obscured.
Trouble is, such questions don't seem to be asked and answered in the wirestrike accidents which Tyrogyro posts about. No photos of the poles or wires. No map overviews. "Yet another wirestrike fatality" is about all the information we ever get from them.
 

TyroGyro

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Many of them do have great photos and maps, e.g. the Spanish reservoir guy, the 2019 German accident, most of the South African wire-strikes (the most wire-strikes of any country).

We could/should have a whole thread dedicated to wirestrikes ! (y)
 

Vance

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Trouble is, such questions don't seem to be asked and answered in the wirestrike accidents which Tyrogyro posts about. No photos of the poles or wires. No map overviews. "Yet another wirestrike fatality" is about all the information we ever get from them.
I have found the answer to all those questions on many of the wire strike accident posts with just a little effort.

I am trying to learn about risk mitigation despite already knowing hitting wires in flight is a bad thing.
 

TyroGyro

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Many of them do have great photos and maps, e.g. the Spanish reservoir guy, the 2019 German accident, most of the South African wire-strikes (the most wire-strikes of any country).

We could/should have a whole thread dedicated to wirestrikes ! (y)


Typical South African wire-strike accident, with a typically thorough and detailed report.


FINAL REPORT



Almost all gyro wire-strikes, and indeed almost ALL fatal gyro accidents can be filed under "poor ADM"...
 
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Abid

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You may be right, but it maybe then comes down to workload or 'thoughtload', which of course can be more challenging for older pilots. In a fixed wing there's not that much to think about except not getting too slow to stay safe, in gyros there may be more variables to have to worry about.

On a gyroplane takeoff, you are correct for sure.
In flight not really that different. Where in airplanes you worry about angle of attack and stall and possible spin. In gyroplanes you worry about ding maneuvers that can reduce G loading for long enough where rotor RPM cannot be recovered. Different but not more or less difficult.
One can argue that given that, gyroplanes ability to slow down to a crawl on landing gives them an advantage in safety. Also slowing down in a gyro does not result in a stall and you remain in control can can fly it right out of it.
Of course, the dirty truth is is if you are high time airplane pilot, older and coming to gyroplanes new (lower hours ~ under 200), your instincts themselves are your enemy and you need to train them out of you.
 

Aaron R

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I'm new to the gyro world, but not to aviation. A few days ago I clicked on "What's new," and six or seven of the top ten posts began with "Fatal," another with "RIP." It was sobering, and I did ask myself, "Why on earth do I want to have anything to do with this community?" But at the same time, I knew my brain was doing what brains so often do...constructing a faulty narrative from anecdotal information. So, you haven't scared me away yet. I think it's a good sign if a community spends time reading accident reports and discussing them.
 

TyroGyro

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I'm new to the gyro world, but not to aviation. A few days ago I clicked on "What's new," and six or seven of the top ten posts began with "Fatal," another with "RIP." It was sobering, and I did ask myself, "Why on earth do I want to have anything to do with this community?" But at the same time, I knew my brain was doing what brains so often do...constructing a faulty narrative from anecdotal information. So, you haven't scared me away yet. I think it's a good sign if a community spends time reading accident reports and discussing them.
Remember

a) most gyro accidents are avoidable, as the accident reports demonstrate
b) a few countries have had a disproportionate share of fatal accidents
c) the global fatal accident rate is in decline
d) there are about 5000 of the "Big 3" Eurotubs flying in the world today. I count 93 fatals stretching back over 20 years.

Get proper training, read the reports, use common sense, Fly Safe.
 
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TyroGyro

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Someone recently asked for the age of pilots, so I have trawled through the data...

Histogram of Pilot Age in Eurotub Fatals.png
Not sure it tells us much, or has many surprises. I would need a histogram of ALL gyro pilot ages to compare.

Three of the very-youngest victims were from one South African company, which "cut corners" and sent them on Ag. Ops., with tragic results.
 
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Tyger

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I'm new to the gyro world, but not to aviation. A few days ago I clicked on "What's new," and six or seven of the top ten posts began with "Fatal," another with "RIP." It was sobering, and I did ask myself, "Why on earth do I want to have anything to do with this community?" But at the same time, I knew my brain was doing what brains so often do...constructing a faulty narrative from anecdotal information. So, you haven't scared me away yet. I think it's a good sign if a community spends time reading accident reports and discussing them.
OK, the fact that you noticed them all at once is actually a bit of an anomaly.
All those accidents turned up as "What's new" simply because TG recently decided to follow up and link us to the final reports on a number of accidents which had previously been discussed, which had actually occurred over the space of several years.

It is good to be aware (and beware) of Availability Bias!
 
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