Regulations Regarding Flights Over Charted National Park Service Areas

Capt'n Gator

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
571
Location
Goldsboro, NC
Aircraft
Dominator Single 582BH N401JC
Total Flight Time
150+
I must have written it badly.
Yes, I agree 100% you can get an exemption only in unincorporated areas. That is what I was told.

And I was told they have tried to get a permit and were all denied.

From the document as I said in CA
= As a general rule, it is unlawful to operate a heliport in the State of California without a State Heliport Permit.
Oceanside is incorporated for years and I do not know of any legal helipads, nor have I seen any in Carlsbad.
after reading everything on this thread.....I am so glad i do not and will NEVER live in California or New York. North Carolina is the state for me and please if you are thinking about moving here, please leave your liberal crap back wherever you were or stay there.
 

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
5,661
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1, A&S 18A, Phoebus C, SGS 1-26A, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
Oh, hearsay was correct too about it being a State law/ permitting process, not local law although they have those too if you ever get a permit from CA the city will take it away... Seem to be the case.
Local noise ordinances are independent of state permitting. The state standards are based upon FAA standards and are there for safety, and only for safety. The local folks may worry about noise nuisance.

Incorporation is necessary for a locality to have the authority to promulgate noise rules.
 
Last edited:

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
5,661
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1, A&S 18A, Phoebus C, SGS 1-26A, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
after reading everything on this thread.....I am so glad i do not and will NEVER live in California or New York. North Carolina is the state for me and please if you are thinking about moving here, please leave your liberal crap back wherever you were or stay there.
Republican Goodwin Jess Knight was the Governor of California when the permit requirements were first established in 1953, and Republican Governor (later U.S. President) Ronald W. Reagan presided over the 1972 amendments. It was not a partisan issue, but a public safety provision added to the Public Utilities Code.

I'm glad you enjoy where you live.
 
Last edited:

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
2,172
Location
Clermont, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
475
In my over 40 years of flying over parks, this is very new.
1) We did not have to ask permission to land on national forest.
2) There were a few parks like the Grand Cajon and Yosemite that had over-fly ceilings.
3) The others had wildlife areas with ceilings IIRC some less than the new 2000'.
4) We did not have to ask permission to land in a national forest.
Just because you recently became aware of it does not mean it's new.
It's in the AIM, and has been for many years.
"The landing of aircraft is prohibited on lands or waters administered by the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, or U.S. Forest Service without authorization from the respective agency."

Here it is in the 2014 AIM:

How far do you want to go back?
 
Last edited:

WaspAir

Supreme Allied Gyro CFI
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
5,661
Location
Colorado front range
Aircraft
Bell 47G-3B-1, A&S 18A, Phoebus C, SGS 1-26A, etc.
Total Flight Time
stopped caring at 1000
AC91-36 (VFR Flight Near Noise-sensitive Areas) was first promulgated in September, 1972, The latest edition (AC91-36D) came out in 2004.
 

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
2,172
Location
Clermont, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
475
True, but of course that AC does not say anything about landings being prohibited without authorization.
 

Mayfield

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,336
Location
Avondale, Arizona
Last edited:

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
Just because you recently became aware of it does not mean it's new.
It's in the AIM, and has been for many years.
"The landing of aircraft is prohibited on lands or waters administered by the National Park Service, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, or U.S. Forest Service without authorization from the respective agency."

Here it is in the 2014 AIM:

How far do you want to go back?
Thank you, Tyger.
Ignorance is bliss. We have been landing in national forests for years.
But now I learn I have to ask mother, may I.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
As my friend Vance would say "I'm confused on a higher level." Are you giving me the web site I gave you in Post 24 of this thread?
Was that the page? I did not look. I only knew that all the CA helicopter pilots have told me I cannot land at my house for over 4o years, and I have no need to fly a helicopter from airport to airport or look up why I can't.

If you found the page, why didn't you tell us it was a state law and the only exemption was unincorporated cities? I was asking the experts to confirm the hearsay not telling you I knew the regulations.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
Okay. sure
If you found the page, why didn't you tell us you were wrong and it was a state law and the only exemption for a permit was unincorporated cities? I was asking the experts to confirm the hearsay not telling you I knew the regulations.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
after reading everything on this thread.....I am so glad i do not and will NEVER live in California or New York. North Carolina is the state for me and please if you are thinking about moving here, please leave your liberal crap back wherever you were or stay there.
Yes, we are the nanny state. Liberal policies sound kind but are so hurtful.
They take care of us by restricting us to actions that only a moron could not get hurt in any way. Like no fireworks.

If I could find another state with year-round sunshine,
a foreign country, Mexico, 15 min's away,
an Ocean 15 min's away,
7K mountains 45 min's away,
and hundreds of miles of desert 1.5 hours away with the largest contiguous sand dunes in the country.

I would move but I use all of these resources.
 
Last edited:

Mayfield

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,336
Location
Avondale, Arizona
If you found the page, why didn't you tell us you were wrong and it was a state law and the only exemption for a permit was unincorporated cities? I was asking the experts to confirm the hearsay not telling you I knew the regulations.
Mostly John because you were wrong. You were wrong about El Cajon having a noise abatement helicopter prohibition, and wrong about Oceanside noise abatement codes and wrong about Carlsbad noise abatement rules and wrong about pretty much everything else in this discussion. You can't seem to grasp the difference between CalTrans helport regulations (Which I provided you) and being able to land off airport pretty much anywhere except within 1000 feet of schools.

Please read what Jon and Tyler have contributed to this thread.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
Mostly John because you were wrong. You were wrong about El Cajon having a noise abatement helicopter prohibition, and wrong about Oceanside noise abatement codes and wrong about Carlsbad noise abatement rules and wrong about pretty much everything else in this discussion. You can't seem to grasp the difference between CalTrans helport regulations (Which I provided you) and being able to land off airport pretty much anywhere except within 1000 feet of schools.

Please read what Jon and Tyler have contributed to this thread.
I told you I did not know what laws applied and told you if the state law did not then the city passes a noise abatement law is what I was told!

Please explain the CA law, to me, that allows you to land 1000 feet of a school WITHOUT a PERMIT. If that were true few of the helicopters would be based at our airport.

As a general rule, it is unlawful to operate a heliport in the State of California without a State Heliport Permit. State Heliport Permit requirements are promulgated in the California Public Utilities Code (PUC),

Permit Enacting Statute – PUC 21663​


Operation Without a Permit – It is unlawful for any political subdivision, any of its officers or employees, or any person to operate an airport (heliport) unless an appropriate airport (heliport) permit required by rule of the Department has been issued by the Department and has not subsequently been revoked.
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
My only point was that CA helicopter pilots have to fly mostly from airport to airport!!!! That is what you and Brian denied. Please explain how I was wrong about that and whether you are or were right. I'm confused by your continued claim that you were right about the only point, I made, of having to fly from airport to airport in Ca. Until today, I did not know why helicopter pilots could not land off-airport in CA.
I just want to LEARN!!
 
Last edited:

Mayfield

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,336
Location
Avondale, Arizona
John

I generally avoid ad hominem arguments, but your postings are, in my opinion, egregious.

In this discussion you're just being obtuse and silly by starting an argument based on one premise (your post #4 in this thread) and switching the premise when your logic fails. But, in many threads you say dangerous and foolish things.

For example, in the "Gs – Blades and maneuver" thread a newbie asks for help. Jon and Jean Claude begin a cogent explanation. Then you interject foolish, dangerous drivel into the discussion. When you figure out you were in over your head you write “Well, I certainly screwed up that interpretation.”

It's much, much worse than a misinterpretation John.

You write:

"The fatigue of the blade root due to the alternate drag under g= 1 is much more constraining" means:
Gyroplanes are constrained to flying at "least one G" if you do not want to risk your rotor RPM decaying because of the blade root failing to produce the same lift.”


What does that mean? Jean Claude is describing a structural consequence and you're describing; what?

or.

“We are taught that if you find yourself in weather or pilot created negative G condition to enter a vertical descent to speed the blades back up and then slightly lower the nose and gently add power back in to straight and level.”

Huh? Taught by who?

Then you describe your “favorite” fixed wing maneuvers. The problem is you never performed either one of these maneuvers as described.

“Bob Hover taught me how to hold one G in a loop keeping a glass of water on the dash the entire time. “ (I'm assuming you meant Bob Hoover)

Please walk us through a 1G loop John? I assure you Bob Hoover never did one.

“The other is to ask a newbie passenger to hold a pen in their open hand at chest level.
Then reduce below 1 G exactly enough to keep the pen floating right in front of their nose.
Holding the pen exactly at nose level until I hit the red line (VNE) or 500 feet AGL and pull up.”


Uh-huh! Yeah. Sure.

You are describing stuff that couldn't happen. You interject yourself into serious discussions and it appears you don't have a grasp of what you are talking about.

John, when I read the writings of Vance Breese, Tyler Hathaway, Jon Stark, Abid Farooqui, Ron Awad, Ben Suissa, Jean Claude Debreyer, Greg Vos, Leigh Allison, Jamie Wolfe, Stan Foster, Brian Rodgers, and dozens of others, I receive valuable information; usually written entertainingly. Their writings make me grateful that they share their thoughts. These folks walk the walk.

When I read your posts, I read random, disjointed, inaccurate, untrue, Walter Mitty prattle that is literally painful to read and dangerous to those that might believe you.

Read, study, and ask questions of those who really do have the knowledge you pretend to have.
 
Last edited:

Tyger

Super Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2017
Messages
2,172
Location
Clermont, NY
Aircraft
Magni M16
Total Flight Time
475
Yes, we are the nanny state. Liberal policies sound kind but are so hurtful.
They take care of us by restricting us to actions that only a moron could not get hurt in any way. Like no fireworks.

If I could find another state with year-round sunshine,
a foreign country, Mexico, 15 min's away,
an Ocean 15 min's away,
7K mountains 45 min's away,
and hundreds of miles of desert 1.5 hours away with the largest contiguous sand dunes in the country.

I would move but I use all of these resources.
Maybe move to Mexico! 😁
 

All_In

Gold Supporter
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
16,109
Location
San Diego, CA. USA
Aircraft
Airgyro AG915 Centurian, Aviomania G1sb
Total Flight Time
Gyroplane 70Hrs, not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
John

I generally avoid ad hominem arguments, but your postings are, in my opinion, egregious.

In this discussion you're just being obtuse and silly by starting an argument based on one premise (your post #4 in this thread) and switching the premise when your logic fails. But, in many threads you say dangerous and foolish things.

For example, in the "Gs – Blades and maneuver" thread a newbie asks for help. Jon and Jean Claude begin a cogent explanation. Then you interject foolish, dangerous drivel into the discussion. When you figure out you were in over your head you write “Well, I certainly screwed up that interpretation.”

It's much, much worse than a misinterpretation John.

You write:

"The fatigue of the blade root due to the alternate drag under g= 1 is much more constraining" means:
Gyroplanes are constrained to flying at "least one G" if you do not want to risk your rotor RPM decaying because of the blade root failing to produce the same lift.”


What does that mean? Jean Claude is describing a structural consequence and you're describing; what?

or.

“We are taught that if you find yourself in weather or pilot created negative G condition to enter a vertical descent to speed the blades back up and then slightly lower the nose and gently add power back in to straight and level.”

Huh? Taught by who?

Then you describe your “favorite” fixed wing maneuvers. The problem is you never performed either one of these maneuvers as described.

“Bob Hover taught me how to hold one G in a loop keeping a glass of water on the dash the entire time. “ (I'm assuming you meant Bob Hoover)

Please walk us through a 1G loop John? I assure you Bob Hoover never did one.

“The other is to ask a newbie passenger to hold a pen in their open hand at chest level.
Then reduce below 1 G exactly enough to keep the pen floating right in front of their nose.
Holding the pen exactly at nose level until I hit the red line (VNE) or 500 feet AGL and pull up.”


Uh-huh! Yeah. Sure.

You are describing stuff that couldn't happen. You interject yourself into serious discussions and it appears you don't have a grasp of what you are talking about.

John, when I read the writings of Vance Breese, Tyler Hathaway, Jon Stark, Abid Farooqui, Ron Awad, Ben Suissa, Jean Claude Debreyer, Greg Vos, Leigh Allison, Jamie Wolfe, Stan Foster, Brian Rodgers, and dozens of others, I receive valuable information; usually written entertainingly. Their writings make me grateful that they share their thoughts. These folks walk the walk.

When I read your posts, I read random, disjointed, inaccurate, untrue, Walter Mitty prattle that is literally painful to read and dangerous to those that might believe you.

Read, study, and ask questions of those who really do have the knowledge you pretend to have.
Very hurtful, when you are caught being wrong.
Now you will not answer the actual questions asked and have to switch to an entirely different thread (that I admitted I misunderstood Jean) to start an entirely different argument based on an entirely different subject.

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!! Who switching the premise to an entirely different subject THREAD when you are wrong?
Who is convincing CA helicopter pilots that they can land anywhere 1000' from schools?

PS:
Sad you have so little FW aerobatic time and haven't even floated objects exactly where you want them.

Bet you $5,000 I can float a pen at your nose. Very easy!

PS:
I forgive you!
 

Mayfield

Gold Supporter
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
1,336
Location
Avondale, Arizona
Very hurtful, when you are caught being wrong.
Now you will not answer the actual questions asked and have to switch to an entirely different thread (that I admitted I misunderstood Jean) to start an entirely different argument based on an entirely different subject.

Talk about the kettle calling the pot black!! Who switching the premise to an entirely different subject THREAD when you are wrong?
Who is convincing CA helicopter pilots that they can land anywhere 1000' from schools?

PS:
Sad you have so little FW aerobatic time and haven't even floated objects exactly where you want them.

Bet you $5,000 I can float a pen at your nose. Very easy!

PS:
I forgive you!
You are correct. I re-posted my comments in the correct thread.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
Staff member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
17,486
Location
Santa Maria, California
Aircraft
Givens Predator
Total Flight Time
2400+ in rotorcraft
All I know is, in CA, it must be very hard to get a permit or there would not be so few helicopter pads marked on our charts.
And there would be very few helicopters flying out of our airport and paying rent if they could get a permit, many of my friends have huge homes.

My only point was that CA helicopter pilots have to fly mostly from airport to airport!!!! That is what you and Brian denied. Please explain how I was wrong about that and whether you are or were right. I'm confused by your continued claim that you were right about the only point, I made, of having to fly from airport to airport in Ca. Until today, I did not know why helicopter pilots could not land off-airport in CA.
I just want to LEARN!!
I count 408 heliports in California and 522 airports giving helicopter pilots 79% more places to operate from.

It appears to me helicopters may also operate from a lot more places than heliports and airports in California.

El Mirage Dry Lake is controlled by the Bureau of Land Management and they do not prohibit landing in the park.

There were no laws that I am aware of that prohibited me from landing a helicopter on my property in Nipomo. I suspect that neighbors would have complained and there would soon be a law prohibiting helicopter operations.

Many of the pump jacks around Santa Maria have unlisted helipads.

I have landed with a flight of two helicopters in the parking lot of a Mexican restaurant near the Mexican border.

In my opinion people don’t fly helicopters from their home because of respect for their neighbors and the cost.
 
Top