RAF2000 rotor bearing and spindle "Jesus" bolt

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Givens Predator
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Responsibility.

Responsibility.


Agreed. My gyro wasn't safe because I didn't know what you knew and thus made foolish and underinformed choices. I now know to ask you first. Vance, to complement all the detail of your gyros' superlative mechanical condition, and your attentiveness to safety and your thoroughness in everything, please recount the rigorous medical testing for your 3rd or 2nd Class Medical Certificate before flying passengers around in busy/complex California airspace. Perhaps my health is not sufficient as PIC? I probably cannot know for sure, being so new at gyro flying. While the FAR will permit a 65 y/o one-eyed Sport pilot with brain-injury aphasia and poor short-term memory to fly on his DL "medical", such a conscientious pilot as yourself would naturally insist on a higher personal standard. Even though I'm as fit as a college student and have a 2nd Class Medical, I don't want to miss out on something crucial in retrospect. E.g., should we use multiple AMEs as you do A&Ps? Have a yearly CATscan? Check our BP monthly? Please describe your version of a responsible minimum health status we all should have before taking up children at fly-ins.

Stew Stau, thanks for the thumbs up.

Regards, Kolibri


You response suggests to me you have completely missed my point.

I have found it best to take responsibility for my decisions and actions rather than blaming others for my mistakes. I see no value attempting to justify my decisions with nonsensical excuses.

FAR 91.3 and 91.7 make my responsibilities as pilot in command clear.

I see no reason to debate with you and you are welcome to take my observations personally.

I did not miss the intent of your questions.

I am a 65 year old, overweight one eyed brain injured Commercial Pilot, Rotorcraft, Gyroplane with over 1,600 hours of accident free, violation free rotorcraft flying in busy complex California airspace.

I had the FAA Western Region surgeon, several neurological specialists and several doctors involved in scheduling a demonstrated ability medical check ride with a designated examiner.

I fly with a statement of demonstrated ability and have a current medical.

I have doctors other than my AME involved in my health care.

I check my blood pressure weekly and check my pulse after ever air show performance as a part of my debrief. I check my pulse whenever I feel uneasy about a phase of flight.

I don’t fly when I am ill, on medication, stressed, tired or hungry. I don’t drink or use drugs.

I test my cognitive skills before each flight and work to identify and mitigate my TBI challenges.

Anyone who has flown with me knows of my challenges and has made them a part of their risk assessment.

I don’t “take children up at airshows”. They sit in the gyroplane on the ground as I describe what it feels like to fly a gyroplane. Their parents often take the children’s pictures.

Regards, Vance
 

Doug Riley

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Gentlemen, gentlemen... let's not eat our own young here.

Vance is right, of course, about personal responsibility being the bottom line. Legally, these contraptions are "experimental" aircraft. That means -- again, legally -- that the only "manufacturer" is the guy who built it.*

The builder/seller is an "amateur" by definition; that is, it must be presumed that he doesn't know what he is doing. When you buy his creation, if you do anything less than take it apart down to the last nut and bolt, inspect and replace as needed, you are gambling on the work of a presumed ignoramus who is officially recognized as such.

The fact that your aircraft seller may be a CFI doesn't change the equation. There's a dangerous hole in the CFI system: CFI's who teach in homebuilts -- or teach people how to fly them -- are not required by the FAA to show any mechanical competence or engineering knowledge whatsoever -- nor to teach any even if they have it. Thus we get flat-earther CFIs who preach that horizontal stabilizers are dangerous.

Vance's approach -- total personal responsibility -- simply is the only way to survive in the Wild West of homebuilt aircraft. That's just as true of the slickest 'glass Euro-gyro as it is of some junkyard-dog Bensen lawnchair.

Now, OTOH -- we all know that people make a business out of selling homebuilt aircraft. They try to create the impression that, when you buy from them, it's like buying from your Chevy (or Porsche) dealer. They hold themselves out as "factory" reps, selling an "extensively engineered" consumer product.

This is untrue in ALL cases. Buyers ought to know better. Still, IMHO it is immoral for sellers to create this false impression. Kolibri is within his rights to be indignant at being "had" by a system that sells homebuilts as if they were Cessnas. Now he knows, and he will be safer for it.

It's too bad that this happens, though. It's contrary to the spirit and intention of the homebuilt regs.
_____________________
*I recall the first time an FAA rep inspected my original Bensen gyro. He gave me grief about, of all things, the scribe marks on the Bensen blades' pitch blocks. I said that the Bensen factory put them there as adjustment guides. He intoned, Yoda-like, "Factory. No factory there is. YOU are the only factory." He was right.
 

gd5362

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sparrowhawk
Vance,
I don't know you but you seem to be thoughtful, knowledgeable and a very capable pilot who is well regarded on this forum.
SO PLEASE ,trust me on this, BLOCK HIM. Your BP and peace of mind will thank you for it.
 

farmer jim

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whitewater KS
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Butterfly Turbo Golden
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:eek: I don't have any trouble with exposing charlatons, if the facts are there, and I commend those folks who are willing to do the same.

NOT THAT IT MAKES AN OWL'S POOP BIT A DIFFERENCE :)

fj
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Givens Predator
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Opportunity.

Opportunity.

Vance,
I don't know you but you seem to be thoughtful, knowledgeable and a very capable pilot who is well regarded on this forum.
SO PLEASE ,trust me on this, BLOCK HIM. Your BP and peace of mind will thank you for it.
Thank you for the kind words Glenn.

There are some aviation safety concepts that I feel have value and are worth articulating.

It is nice to have examples of how things go wrong so I can share my perspective and experience.

I learn from the process.

My posts are directed at concepts rather than personalities.

I have not given Kolibri the power to upset me or raise my blood pressure.

I gave up trying to teach him anything after he had his tantrum and resorted to personal attacks.

I hope others may learn from what I perceive to be his mistakes.

Regards, Vance
 

SIIaCanuck

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110
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Alix, Alberta
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RAF 2000 2.5 GTX
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3500hrs +
Vance,

I can see both sides of the equation. I'm an engineer and a professional pilot and, while the Ac Capt is legally responsible for the airworthiness of his/her kite, the wrench monkey has a moral obligation to make good on the 'contract' he/she accepts while wielding the wrench.

Kolibri is an FNG in this homebuilt gyro community and, whatever his previous indiscretions toward you might have been, I'm convinced he should relay this whole story warts and all.

He'll come out of it with a reformed viewpoint and other FNGs can learn a thing or two out of it.

I've been called any number of things over the years but I'm still going to try to stop the guy who is about to step on a landmine, despite the indignant voice on the back of my head saying, 'that'll teach him.'

Whatever Kolibri's warts are, and he bears a fair bit of responsibility for his current situation, he's paying for it and the other prick responsible can only be held to account by those warned off by Kolibri's torrid tale of woe.

I say let the man fix his machine and rant away. Nobody's being forced to follow along.
 

Vance

Gyroplane CFI
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Messages
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Nipomo,California
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Givens Predator
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2400+ in rotorcraft
Vance,

Kolibri is an FNG in this homebuilt gyro community and, whatever his previous indiscretions toward you might have been, I'm convinced he should relay this whole story warts and all.
I suspect he will Stewart.

I am not aware of any “previous indiscretions toward me.”

I find his posts a nice opportunity to occasionally introduce my perception of reality.

My posts are not written for him because it appears to me I am not able to teach him anything.

I occasionally answer his questions.

In my opinion it is not a debate.

Regards, Vance
 

SIIaCanuck

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110
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Alix, Alberta
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RAF 2000 2.5 GTX
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3500hrs +
I suspect he will Stewart.

I am not aware of any “previous indiscretions toward me.”

I find his posts a nice opportunity to occasionally introduce my perception of reality.

My posts are not written for him because it appears to me I am not able to teach him anything.

I occasionally answer his questions.

In my opinion it is not a debate.

Regards, Vance
Roger, I misunderstood your previous post. Failing to heed advice is somewhat short of an 'indiscretion'. Been both sides of that equation myself from time to time.

I shall return to watching the learning process for all it's lessons on gyros, life, aviation, engineering and humans. A bit of everything for everyone it would seem.

The world ain't flat and the patch of life, where those who believe it is meet the rest of us, continues to provide a case study in human folly, if nothing else.
 

Kolibri

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Doug, thanks/agreed. I'm a libertarian, and we're all about personal responsibility. However, we conversely expect/demand such in others, hence my ire with Dofin. And if this gyro community wants new members, it'd go very far if y'all would even-handedly redress all parties involved -- especially those in positions of competence/authority. Quite frankly, that guy should have been run outta town long ago with his historic behavior. I expect that things will finally catch up to him this year.

_____
Vance, thanks for describing your medical thoroughness. I wish you good health and years of safe flying, and the wisdom to discern when you shouldn't fly. I regret that you viewed my post as a "personal attack".

Regarding your "I don’t take children up at [fly-ins]" perhaps somebody of your acquaintance was mistaken. (You weren't at KBFF?)

Had you bought an RAF based in the Florida panhandle, would you have taken it to Dofin Fritts for a pre-purchase inspection, even in conjunction with some local A&P? Dofin's reputation would seem to suggest it, don't you think? And why wouldn't have he been in that local loop? Who is reputed to know more about RAFs than him, even though he's not an A&P? At some point, one must trust another. You trusted your A&Ps, with reason. I trusted Dofin, with reason. Glad it worked out for you.


____
I've been called any number of things over the years but I'm still going to try to stop the guy who is about to step on a landmine, despite the indignant voice on the back of my head saying, 'that'll teach him.'
Thanks, Stew. I'm recalling the old codger's line from the movie Jeremiah Johnson, "Didn't put enough dirt down! Saw it, right off!"

I went through a real-world scenario on just that. Some guy was trying to sneak into the club hangar. I asked him his business. He wanted to "borrow" a headset from our C172. Was he a member? No, but his father was. (Uh, no he wasn't.) However, without being asked, I helped him and his father push out his flat-tired Mooney, and father bristled when I suggested that we push it out of the doorway so that I could get my airplane out as well for my XC trip. I go back to push out my club plane.

Father then comes over and wants the spare headset. Doesn't ask. And he's not a club member. I said, "You haven't even said 'Thank you' for me helping you, and now you ---" He quipped, "Now I remember why I quit the club, cuz it sucks!" I smiled and said, "Well, at least our headsets are still good enough for you!" He stalked off.

I'm doing my preflight, pissed, not concentrating, so I start over. His son comes over to apologize on behalf of his father (who's in the Mooney), tries to tell me how much his dad had done for club, etc. Whatever.

I start my engine, and as I taxi away I notice that Mr. Mooney left his towbar on. Even though I think he's one of the biggest pricks in GA, I try to reach him on the radio, but don't until I'm already back taxiing. He has by then fired up. I inform in the the most neutral tone I can muster. Silence. Then, "Thanks, but I already took it off." (He had not, for he was in full view as I back taxied.) But, I'd done my pilot's duty, even to him.

Regards, Kolibri
 

Vance

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Nipomo,California
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Givens Predator
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Doug,
Regarding your "I don’t take children up at [fly-ins]" perhaps somebody of your acquaintance was mistaken. (You weren't at KBFF?)

Regards, Kolibri[/COLOR]
Of course I have been at the Ken Brock Freedom Fly in for a number of years.

I flew lots of people.

I don’t fly children.

Do you have a point?

I make mistakes too; I take responsibility for them so I can learn.

If you find a way to make me wrong it won't somehow mitigate your own errors or change who is responsible.

I feel your expectations continue to be unrealistic.

Lots of people have made similar mistakes to yours.

My fantasy is that this thread will lower peoples expectations and increase their vigilance because the condition of your aircraft is not unusual.

Fortunately there have not been many fatal gyroplane accidents because of poor maintenance.

A typical preflight inspection of your RAF should have showed some of the problems you have only recently discovered.

I would not reuse your pivot bolts; to me they don’t look that bad.

Your RAF is an amateur built experimental aircraft and there is nothing in the FARs that says your RAF needs to be maintained by the kit manufactures schedule to be airworthy.

The builder or the A&P who writes in the aircraft log book that the gyroplane is airworthy gets to determine what constitutes airworthy.

I typically spend at least three days on an owner assisted annual condition inspection.

As I recall here was a problem with the large bolts that hold the hub bar together. There was a fatal accident and an AD issued. Have you checked them for compliance?

Regards, Vance
 
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Kolibri

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I would not reuse your pivot bolts; to me they don’t look that bad.
Your sentence seems to contradict itself, so I'm not sure what you meant. As I posted earlier I did replace both AN6 pivot bolts, as well as the AN5s in the gimbal head.

_____
A good CFI should teach about preflight and a good student should learn.

Kolibri claimed in a post that he is a fixed wing private pilot.

Are we to imagine that his fixed wing CFI didn’t teach him about pre-flight inspections either?

A good preflight would have exposed some of the maintenance issues and pointed to larger issues.
Vance, I really wish you'd read my posts more carefully, as I've already explained that "I now spend more time preflighting my RAF than Dofin ever took to explain preflighting to me." I was taught very well how to preflight a C172 (so I do), but I was not well taught by Dofin how to preflight my own RAF2000. You avoided that issue by irrelevantly bringing up my FW CFI instead -- though not much of FW preflight training correlates to an RAF. To say that a C172 pilot would be able to, without prior hands-on training, thoroughly preflight an RAF2000 is just silly. Thus, equally silly was your allegation that as a Cessna pilot I could have thus originally spotted problems in preflight which I only later discovered as the gryo's owner. This is why FW pilots must be trained by a gyro expert. And both the PRA and RAFSA currently proclaim Dofin Fritts as such. (You continue to post as if I'd bought the thing out of a barn, and then chose the farmer as my CFI. Nice strawman there.)

I have very much improved my RAF preflighting since last summer, and will this year post a pictorial pdf which incorporates many tips I've learned here (including one of your own about checking for rod end binding throughout the cyclic range of movement). Furthermore, I am doing what I can to increase the knowledge pool about these machines, something you've never once praised.

It's one thing buying a gyro from a mere seller who takes your money and drives away, and quite another who demonstrates explicit faith in the same machine that he sold you in order to spend many hours in the air in it training you. Not even an A&P will do that. So, being egocentric like anybody, I figured that Dofin cared for his own safety as much as I cared for mine. Thus, (in conjunction with my own decent mechanical experience) I reasoned that my RAF2000 was a manifestly safe machine with no poignant mechanical issues -- else, why would he risk being in it with me for 15 hours? After 20+ years flying them, and building many RAFs, if he trusted my machine then it should have been sound.

While a very reasonable assumption, it was in retrospect a faulty one, as the LaPlace crash report will soon demonstrate and as my own RAF has already indicated. If he cared about his safety, he wouldn't have gone up for dozens of hours in either of these two gyros which had old/corroded parts that his experience should have alerted him to. He definitely is aware of RAF Product Notices and maintenance inspections; he simply chooses to often ignore them. If Mahler's rod ends failed just weeks after Fritts' "inspection"/instruction, then they begged for an overdue replacement by Fritts (who would have made money on the labor, and also enjoyed a safer customer's gyro for instruction -- who'd have been the loser?).

Given what overdue repairs I've made, would any RAF owner here let theirs slide to such condition, much less fly around in it . . . and with passengers? Knowing what I've learned, I wouldn't have, and you wouldn't have either. Well, then how was it unremarkable that Dofin did so? His apathy is bizarre, and utterly improper as a CFI and "inspector" of mechanical condition.

I'd like more folks to open their eyes to this very odd (and arguably fatal) attitude of somebody still listed by the PRA and RAFSA as a recommended CFI. He passes off marginal machines as safe, doesn't warn new student/owners of RAF product notices regarding control system weaknesses, and falsifies maintenance logbook entries. And because he will blithely fly in these same substandard gyros, his students implicitly trust him that all is mechanically well!

I'm not harping on past issues; notice that I've not mentioned the fuel tank, H-stab, cg change in the FAA Handbook, etc. I described those already, and have moved on. It's now resolved to the deadly serious issue of safety. That long-seized pivot bolt (and his signature about having inspected it) was the final straw with me.

_____
Somebody PMed me about having questioned your ADM and op tempo at KBFF flying passengers all day (including, according to him, minors). I wasn't there; you guys were. He can post here if he wishes.


_____
As I recall here was a problem with the large bolts that hold the hub bar together. There was a fatal accident and an AD issued. Have you checked them for compliance?
I don't recall any AD or Product Notice about this, so it may have been pre-2002. I'll look into it, thanks. What year; which accident? Is it in my RAF fatalities table of those 15 accidents? I've read every NTSB report of all RAF2000 incidents, but don't recall this one.

Regards, Kolibri
 

Vance

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Givens Predator
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I don't recall any AD or Product Notice about this, so it may have been pre-2002. I'll look into it, thanks. What year; which accident? Is it in my RAF fatalities table of those 15 accidents? I've read every NTSB report of all RAF2000 incidents, but don't recall this one.

Regards, Kolibri


I don’t seem to have the ability to communicate with you so I will stop trying.

This is the one along with the notice number.

While on an instructional flight, a bolt in the main rotor blade broke separating the blade from the hub. The blade struck the student pilot resulting in fatal injuries. The responding FAA inspector stated the on-scene investigation found the hub bar wing and rotor blade had separated from the hub bar due to the failure of the hub bar wing retaining bolt head. The NTSB material lab reported the bolt that retains the hub bar wing to the hub bar was fractured in the radius between the shank and the head. Presence of fatigue arrest marks covering approximately 90 percent of the cross-sectional area. The fatigue cracks initiated from multiple origins all the way around the outer diameter surface at the bases of the radius with the head. The head contacts that hub bar without the use of a washer. A product notice number 33 was issued by Rotary Air Force (RAF) on June 18, 2001, placing a 500 hour time change factor on RAF rotor blades and hub bar "until further notice". The product notice number 33 had not been accomplished on the accident gyroplane at the time of the accident. The owner/certified flight instructor (CFI) stated the blades had a total time of about 930 hours at the time of the accident, which about 430 of those hours were of airtime. He did remember getting some kind of notice through the mail, something about a 500 hours time on the blades but the notice was not clear and too vague. If it was mandatory, a notice wound be issued stating as such. The Owner/CFI added the blades on the accident gyroplane never experience a ground strike, but did have nicks and scrape marks on the blades. A representative of RAF contacted the owner/CFI about a month after product notice 33 was issued advising of the notice and informed him about internal damage and stress that occurs if the rotor blade contacts the ground and the nature of such damage, which are undetectable. The owner/CFI stated he and RAF have had conversations; however, those discussions were more about training issues and the amount of training time the students were receiving. None of those conversations were about RAF product notice number 33 or blade strikes.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
• The owner/pilot mechanic's failure to comply with a manufacture notice to replace the rotor blades and hub bar assembly, resulting in a failure of the hub bar to hub bar wing attaching bolt and separation of a main rotor blade.

Regards, Vance
 

Kolibri

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I don’t seem to have the ability to communicate with you so I will stop trying.
Ah, well, then it's mutual. Adieu.

_____
Thanks for this info on Product Notice 33.

My RAF got the 2005 (Product Notice 39) upgrade of hub bar and rotors at 136 hours.

Does anybody know if RAFSA has rescinded or lengthened the 500 hour change order because of those newer parts?

Does anybody as a precaution replace those big hub bolts more often than 500 hours?

Regards, Kolibri
 
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gd5362

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Well said Eddie.
Although I have blocked him and have no interest in what he has to say it is sometimes amusing to read peoples reply to some of his drivel.
I found his comments on Vances medical condition to be completely inappropriate and a testament to his true character.
When Vance responded by recounting his medical challenges I was inspired and my opinion of Vance raised a notch or two.

As to who he really is? I swear the haughty, condescending tone of his posts reminds me of a cousin of mine who is one of those college professors who is so full of himself that he's useless. That's what I think he is.
 

DennisFetters

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Stopped counting years ago after 5,000
I cant figure sum people.
If it wasnt for threads like this, compleatly ignorant newbes wouldnt hava clue that this dolfin bloke didnt hava clue.
Anyone who says " tone it down, get over it" or anythn that hints of support for this cfi is just as irrisponsable as the dude himself.

Dennis F is either liked ere or is down rite hated, and no dout he deserves critisism, so why the blinde eye to this bloke?
He,s just as dangerous to a newbe.
Now that you have cast me into this argument, I will state the following facts;

I think my biggest critic is myself, because I am always trying to self improve and design better aircraft. I certainly learn from my mistakes and apply the experience. Many, many people, old, young, newbies or old-timers ask me for advice and I have always tried to help out where and when I can. After 30 years of real aviation experience in helicopters, gyroplanes and UAV's, I have after all, learned a trick or two.

What's really funny Mr. Bird, is like you say; people either like me or down-right hate me, but what you fail to state is how do these people fit into those categories;

People that work with me, or that actually know me or have dealed with me like me and get along very well with me. Most all of my employees respected me and called me friend, and said I was a hard but fair boss. The Chinese people that I work for, and the ones that work for me, all respect me and my abilities and go out of their way to be my friend, and I am greatly honored here in China for my contributions to aviation.

On the other hand, the people that seem to hate me are the;

1. People that have never met or got to know me, or have done no personal business with me.

2. People that broke a business contract with me and was mad that I had the nerve to try and hold them accountable.

3. The unfortunate few left over that didn't receive their Voyager-500 deposit back after the SBA took charge of RHCI's bank account.

4. The group of people that tried to take over my company that followed the hollow promises of Fred Stewart and his witless coolies.

5. Those people that read and believe what the above people rumored, in half truths and mostly fabricated lies that were posted on this and other forums.

Nevertheless, as good as it might feel to have a shot at trying to belittle someone that has actually accomplished something in the field of aviation, it is very wrong of people to do so. It only demonstrates ones jalousie of not taking the opportunity to do equal tasks, and it is unbecoming of oneself to do so.

Everyone has made mistakes in their past. Everyone. I am no exception, but I have learned from my mistakes and applied the lessons. I have manufactured over 1700 rotorcraft, none assembled nor operated by myself, but by others. Those that were assembled and operated by myself all flew according to design and had very few problems. I wish it would have been legal for my company to assemble them all and test fly each, like Robinson or most all foreign manufacturers, and I'm sure there would have been a different result.

I have posted here in the past many times the accident results of the Air Command and Mini-500, and they solidly indicate that no one had died from the results of a failed part or unknown flight characteristic. I know some don't like that fact, but it is the fact. They were all avoidable pilot errors, as sad as that is to accept. Yes, there have been failed parts due to poor assembly and even in poor design that led to a crash, most still avoidable, but that didn't kill anyone. What better result could a designer hope for except to design a perfect aircraft the first time. No human has accomplished that as of yet.

Everyone has an opinion, like a$$holes, and everyone is entitled to believe what they want, even if the evidence supports otherwise. What you or some others want to believe makes it impossible for you to believe the actual truth. Since that is the fact, don't you think it would only be fair for you to keep your unfounded opinions to yourself, and not muddy the waters for the others. I believe that I and others with my experience are the best thing to happen for the newbies. After all, they, and people like yourself, are whom we dedicated our life's to provide aircraft that make it possible for them, and you, to achieve their dreams of flight.

As for the other guy you have compared me too in this thread, I have no opinion of the guy due to lack of knowledge about him, so I choose not to comment on the matter for fear that I may be wrong in my unfounded opinion.

I submit this post with respect to you and others and not to inflame the thread, but submitting only my opinion.
 
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BEN S

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Hey Dennis...You said Coolies....He he he
 

Kolibri

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I found his comments on Vances medical condition to be completely inappropriate and a testament to his true character.
When Vance responded by recounting his medical challenges I was inspired and my opinion of Vance raised a notch or two.
While I am similarly inspired by Vance's struggle, I (and at least one other, the guy who PMed) wonder what safety margin of health he flies with. Not to judge Vance, but for me, if I ever need a phalanx of doctors (beyond the normal AME visit for my medical cert) to continually test and monitor me as a Private or Commercial pilot after a TBI, I will voluntarily restrict myself Phase 1 Sport pilotage. While the FAR describes what cannot be done, it does not illuminate very well what perhaps should not be done. Just speaking for myself.


If I had the information you are requesting I would be reluctant to share it with you for fear that if you disagreed with it you would launch a name bashing campaign against me.
eddie, sorry but I don't get your point. What information am I requesting?

Beyond ethical and safety issues, I do not "bash" anyone.

Regards, Kolibri
 

BEN S

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Just thought it amusing considering your current employers.
Zai Jen!
 

DennisFetters

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Stopped counting years ago after 5,000
Just thought it amusing considering your current employers.
Zai Jen!
My Chinese employers are also my business partners. I can only assume that you have either a very outdated, inaccurate or prejudice opinion of the Chinese people.

I have lived here this time for 5 years. I can tell you that they are a very proud and prosperous lot, with rich history and promising future. Their countries public services, roads and transit system is one to behold. Just last weekend I rode the bullet train from Changsha to Wuhan at over 300kph. From the time I let my door from my Changsha home to my Wuhan home, way 2 hours. In the USA I could only drive 5 hours or take a plane that would take 5 hours counting security checks. We have NOTHING like it in the USA.

They are not coolies.
 
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