RAF Info i requested

Schrambow

Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
17
Location
ripon
Aircraft
Aero-Commander680FLP, Bellanca260B, Air Command 532, Ercoupe415C, Bellanca Cruisair
Total Flight Time
2000
Just to give a bit of back ground:
i am looking for a 2 seat gyro. I have been watching & reading this site for a couple of months now. I am slightly impartial to the RAF cause i like its looks, like its height for storage, and realize it is more economical compared to others but realize that the stock machine may not be the safest machine that there is out there, and logically thinking though safety should come before looks, height, and economics (past decisions like my wife refute any logic i may have had (Love i guess)).

Lack of presence from any RAF company personnel on this site is a bit concerning from a business and logical stand point.

I emailed RAF a little while ago and since there is no presence of RAF Company on this site i will post this here. If for some reason they wanted this email private then i am sorry for posting it. I hope i get some reaction from the critics here (Ron & Chuck for sure) for helping me understand what Don (RAF) is talking about. If Don does read this but doesn't post anything, i hope he doesn't double the price kit to me if i decide to buy one, I truely haven't made up my mind on which way to go, and am not sure what will make me decide it either.

This all may be a bit long winded, sorry for that but i like the ideas people have here
Corey
 
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RAF Email to them & return email from them

RAF Email to them & return email from them

my email to RAF

hello Don,
> Don, have i talked to you on the phone in the past?
> Not sure, but were you at Fond du Lac the last couple of years? We
> may have met then.
> Say can you give me the overall height of the raf2000, length & width.
> I have been on the rotary wing forum getting more info on everything.
> People projects & lot of information & peoples logs of building all
> types of machines are on there. Obviously, because the gyro community
> is a small one, you must know most of the people. And there are
> critics out there that are point out everything. The Air Command 532
> that i have been flying since 1987 they say is extremely dangerous &
> unstable, yet in the last 18 years i have found it to be rather easy
> to fly, and as long as keep the engine is kept running when it is
> suppose to, it has treated me rather nicely. Centerline thrust issues
> pop all by certains users against certain machines. I didn't fly this
> year with RAF's at Fond Du lac but last year i did with the newer
> electic stablizer in Jim from NY. machine, and i thought it improved
> the stablity of the machine nicely. I know other machines have also
> added a horizontal stab on the tail i believe. Just wanted to know
> your opinion on that? I respect RAF, and Jim , dwuane, (not sure last
> name, but they are always at fond du lac during the airshow). Also,
> if i were to buy a kit from RAF, how does the company feel about
> people who do simple modifying things? When i first bought my Air
> Command eons ago, they didnt have horizontal fins on the rear, I did
> purchase one set for my 532 machine & they were very easy to put in,
> however the other 503 that i fly, we bought them but yet haven't
> installed them!(13 years ago, they are still sitting in a box).
>
> Anyway Don, i am getting more excited to get into something bigger(2
> seater, winter proof). I haven't sold my other equipment first yet,
> to be able to act immediately yet anyway so there is no big hurry on
> my part either. (i still have a bellanca260B, & the 532 to sell which
> i really have done actively yet, but are making arrangements now to
> do, actually have to doll them up a bit first too). And obviously,
> there are some used machines on the market too(the one you saw,
> another in Oregon) that i haven't completely ruled out yet either. If
> you could give me the dimensions, and other guidance, i would be
> thankfull.
> Sincerely,
> corey schram
 
RAF Reply

RAF Reply

RAF's Reply

Hi Corey
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you I was away all of last week
and I am just getting caught up now.I am not sure as to weather you and
I have met.We certainly may have I have been doing these shows since
1989-1990 so we do get to speak to many very interesting people.The Air
command I have known quit a few pilots that have flown these aircraft
they seem to like them.I guess what I have noticed is that they were
all trained and remain proficient.And most of the guys stayed well
within the flight envelope established for the Air Command and these
pilots knew their own limits as a pilot.Center line of thrushe is an
appropriate term in aviation I just don't think it applies here due to
the fact that all gyro planes are a pendular aircraft where the entire
aircraft hangs from a teeter bolt with the weight,drag and thrust below
this all moves in relation to the lift vector of the rotor disc more or
less you are balancing these items to bring along the rotor to where you
want to go.
And as you know there are a good number of ways to handle every
situation I can say we have a way of doing things which seems right to
us it is not the only way and I dare say with all the very bright people
GOD has gifted with intelligence no doubt new an better ways are to come
yet.I may also say that many or may be all that are on the forums may be
excluded from these new ideas because they are looking to the ashes of
the passed for the answers which lay in the future.Some times the key to
success cannot fit into the key hole vision we have of the world.
Regards Don



I didn't get the dimensions that i really wanted or any real guidance i dont believe. What do you think?
corey
 
I think you got a promotional blurb overburdened with grammatical errors and technobable.
 
Hi Corey

Hi Corey

Hi Corey

Dimensions (LxHxW) 13.6 feet x 8.5 feet x 5.0 feet

RAF Rotor Blade
Manufacturer RAF
Rotor Span 30 ft.
Blade Cord 8 1/2 in.

Actual Disc Loading
Take-off Weight
(At Category Weight) 2.18 lbs/ft²


here you go............
 
Least RAF spelt God with the capital G. Good to know you boys at RAF have something right.
 
By "ashes of the passed" I can only assume RAF mean the cremated remains of the deceased... which given their history isn't entirely out of possibility. Nevertheless, the mind boggles. Do they mean ancestor worship? Necromancy?

As for "centreline of thrushe" (sic) ... I'd have thought this would be a straight line drawn from beak to tail feathers... of course the thrush is a retractable with variable wing geometry and a droop nose; so I guess it would be kind of hard to pin down.

RAF have certainly opened my mind to whole new realms of engineering possibilities. :D :D
 
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Hi Corey......

Hi Corey......

......If you would like to know what I have learnt from being involved with Raf as their Oz agent, email me at [email protected]

I have produced my Firebird from what I learnt by operating a Raf and being on these forums.

I have kept all the good stuff about a Raf, and there is some, and fixed all the problems that a Raf 2000 has.

It is just as easy to buld right as it is to build wrong. The hard part is to know and accept the difference!!!!! :eek:

Aussie Paul. :)
 
..............

..............

"jealousy makes you nasty"
 
SARAF said:
"jealousy makes you nasty"


Jealous of what?


Corey, step back and use your head, and the truth should be easy to see and understand.

Why is RAF not offically on the forum? Because they have not been able to successfully argue their side of the debate on issues such as thrustlines, horizontal stabs, and PIO, PPO causes. Over the years a few of their instructors, or dealers have tried to argue for RAF, but in every case any person with even a 2nd grade education could see they were wrong and the people promoting CLT, Horizontal stabs, and safer machines overall were right.
 
SARAF said:
"jealousy makes you nasty"
Yeah, we understand that but you can get over it by dropping your affiliation with RAF and joining up with AAI, Air Command, Magni or some other gyro manufacturer that has a safe machine. Hey, may be Aussie Paul will be needing a S. Africa dealer!
 
He He

He He

Amazing how fast some of you get on your horses!!! :eek:

Chill guy's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I like RAF like you like Dominator and Air Command. I find it a save aircraft to fly and enjoy it very much and will promote it as far as I go.

Fly save.........

SARAF
 
Pendular? A pendulum requires a fixed suspension point. Something like a big tree limb, overhead beam or the like. A rotor is not fixed in this sense; it has far too little mass to behave like a fixed point.

The forces on a gyro frame do indeed balance out during unaccelerated flight (cruise, climb, descent). So do the forces on a tightrope walker. What happens when one or the other force changes is the interesting part.

The forces that are balanced in steady flight in an aircraft are subject to interruptions. The interruptions can be either commanded by the pilot -- as in the case of throttle or control manipulation -- or uncommanded -- as in the case of turbulence.

We know these interruptions are going to happen. We want the aircraft NOT to go out of control in the face of such predictable events as downdrafts. We want the aircraft NOT to require hair-trigger reflexes to "catch" it before it goes out of control.

Gyros with substantially high thrustlines not compensated by an airframe-mounted HS* are prone to flip violently out of control in strong downdrafts and low-G maneuvers. You can usually "catch" them and prevent this if you are very fast on the throttle. A properly set up HS and thrustline make it unnecessary to do any corrections at all (neither throttle nor stick) in downdrafts. Low-G maneuvers involve some risk in any gyro, but with proper design the aircraft will not experience an abrupt uncommanded pitchover, even in low G.

*Models with this defect include most homebuilt Bensens, the original 1980's Air Commands (since redesigned safely), the KB-3 and the stock RAF-2000.
 
C. Beaty said:
I think you got a promotional blurb overburdened with grammatical errors and technobable.

Chuck,

I don't know why anyone else posted after that. Nicely put.
 
Dean said....

Dean said....

....Hey, may be Aussie Paul will be needing a S. Africa dealer!

Dean, I certainly will be looking for a S. Africa dealer! I already have several irons in the fire from SA.
I will need someone who can think for themselves, and change their mind when correct scientific information is placed before them.
Unfortunately I don't think Eban fits the criteria!! A shame, as he is a very passionate person. Passion in a dealer is paramount after an excellent product.

Remember. I was passionate about Raf like Eban is, but fortunately I had an open enough mind to seriously look at the scientific data presented to me. Luckily my ego did not stop me doing a 180 degree turn!!! My Hybrid testing went on to prove the theory.

Ok Paul!! off the soap box, :eek: and get back down where you belong!!!! :D


Chuck B. You have such a wondeful way with words!! :D

Aussie Paul. :)
 
SARAF said:
"jealousy makes you nasty"

Of what Eban? I tried the Raf for a few thousand hours and now have developed something much much safer and user friendly.

I thank Raf. They taught me a lot of what not to do.

Without my Raf experience, Firebird might never have happened!!!

Eban, I look forward to catching up with you and your father when we arrive in SA.

Aussie Paul. :)
 
Paul

Paul

Hi Paul

In the first place I have a very open mind and think "out of the box" and am not narrow minded like some other......

I also had a thing against RAF when they approached us because we heard a lot of negative stuff and how the aircraft kills people. We got a whole new perception after flying it the first time. In my opinion, it is the pilot that kills himself not the aircraft.

Like Don said a lot of the guy's here keep on looking back at how gyro's where build and stick to this method. Raf has taken the gap and developed a really great gyro and did not stick to old fashion ways, and now every body is burning them for this. There is nothing wrong with a stock RAF, learn to fly the gyro and you all will see.

These days it looks to me like any body can design a gryo "JUST PUT A HS ON IT AND IT IS SAVE" This is the perception new guy's will get when reading this forum.

Yes I would like to meet you when you are here. Would you please post some new information about your Fire Bird as I see the site was last updated 1 NOV 2003.
 
Saraf,

Can you give some examples of "old fashioned ways"?:(

Thanks,
 
A HS does not make a stock RAF safe. Just somewhat less deadly. Changes in the redrive orientation and/or cabin position are necessary to cure the PPO problem.
 
Biologically impossible, I suppose; otherwise I’d suspect SARAF, Dofin, Jim and Duane were identical quadruplets separated at birth.

Studies by the University of Minnesota of identical twins separated at birth and raised in different environments show them to have remarkable similarities; nearly identical IQs, generally use the same brand of toothpaste and a host of other things.
 
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