RAF 2000 - Newbie need help determining value..

WingNut

Newbie
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May 28, 2009
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Dayton, Ohio
Pilot Induced Oscillation or PIO
I am sure others can explain it better than I can but.....
Basically it is the pilot over compensating on the controls. And each compensation is more than the last. It is my understaning that more than 2 or 3 of these of these in a row can result in loss of control, bunt over, and or rotors contacting the rudder in flight.
Brad
Thanks for the explaination. I did know what you were talking about. Actually if you look in the pic I posted, you can see the CFI explain that exact principle. I didn't know the term for what it was called. Thanks.
 

Riff Raf

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Looks like it has some great potential, from the pics.

You might ask Ron Menzie about it, I think he flys one like it.
This is a link to his website
http://www.ronsgyros.com
 

Vance

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It looks like a particularly nice aircraft!

It looks like a particularly nice aircraft!

Hello Robin,

It looks like a particularly nice aircraft.

I see what appears to me to be evidence of good workmanship and aviation experience.

The original airworthiness certificate for N95JG is dated 2/12/2008. The most recent airworthiness is 3/6/2008.

I have flown about 20 hours in an RAF of this configuration and I found it particularly alluring.

It was pitch stable and very easy to fly.

I would expect to pay on the far side of $20,000 for an aircraft like this. In my opinion the builder has a lot more invested in it than that.

The kit was manufactured in 2001 so you may have some airworthiness upgrades to do. There are people on the forum who are familiar with the timing of changes, I am not.

RAF has moved to South Africa.

Good luck, Vance
 

barnstorm2

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Robin,

As mentioned, that is not a Stock RAF but a RAF modded into a SparrowHawk.

That is a VERY good design. Pictures don't tell all of the story, but that looks good from the photos!

Brian,

The Stock RAF gyroplanes have a design flaw. A 10+inch high thrustline, Side by Side config, Cabin, High HP engine and short frame coupling with no horizontal stabilizer. This flaw makes the Stock RAF highly susceptible to PPO (power push over) accidents when flown in windy conditions or above about 70mph.

Many people mitigate the flaw by adding a nice big horizontal stabilizer to the RAF. This helps a great deal but it is still possible to PPO.

The Groen Bro's kit that has been applied to this RAF fixes the flaws of the Stock RAF nicely and makes it for practical purposes PPO-proof.

Some RAF owners feel that with enough training and experience the pilot can learn to be the horizontal stabilizer for the Stock RAF. Perhaps this is true, but it is also true that a number of very experienced, high time pilots have still managed to PPO in Stock RAFs.

In any case I would not recommend a Stock RAF for a new or learning or low-time pilot. Even if you don't believe you are going to PPO the machine it is going to take you 2-4 times as long to learn in this pitchy machine compared to a stable one.

If you have PowerPoint you can learn about PPO and PIO in basic (static) form here:

http://gyrowiki.com/Shared Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=/Shared Documents/Gyroplane Stability Powerpoint&FolderCTID=0x0120001B8A4E515AAA624FBDD3EA16F1078C39&View={C6E56DDF-7A3A-4C7D-A021-308373D3AE19}

If you get prompted for a password just hit CANCEL, it will play anyway.

To further your education into Dynamic Stability then go to the GyroWiki and read Greg Gremminger's articles on the subject.

Another good page is here:

http://www.prachapter34.com/gyro_safety.htm

.
 

WingNut

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Joined
May 28, 2009
Messages
213
Location
Dayton, Ohio
Robin,

As mentioned, that is not a Stock RAF but a RAF modded into a SparrowHawk.

That is a VERY good design. Pictures don't tell all of the story, but that looks good from the photos!

Brian,

The Stock RAF gyroplanes have a design flaw. A 10+inch high thrustline, Side by Side config, Cabin, High HP engine and short frame coupling with no horizontal stabilizer. This flaw makes the Stock RAF highly susceptible to PPO (power push over) accidents when flown in windy conditions or above about 70mph.

Many people mitigate the flaw by adding a nice big horizontal stabilizer to the RAF. This helps a great deal but it is still possible to PPO.

The Groen Bro's kit that has been applied to this RAF fixes the flaws of the Stock RAF nicely and makes it for practical purposes PPO-proof.

Some RAF owners feel that with enough training and experience the pilot can learn to be the horizontal stabilizer for the Stock RAF. Perhaps this is true, but it is also true that a number of very experienced, high time pilots have still managed to PPO in Stock RAFs.

In any case I would not recommend a Stock RAF for a new or learning or low-time pilot. Even if you don't believe you are going to PPO the machine it is going to take you 2-4 times as long to learn in this pitchy machine compared to a stable one.

If you have PowerPoint you can learn about PPO and PIO in basic (static) form here:

http://gyrowiki.com/Shared Documents/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=/Shared Documents/Gyroplane Stability Powerpoint&FolderCTID=0x0120001B8A4E515AAA624FBDD3EA16F1078C39&View={C6E56DDF-7A3A-4C7D-A021-308373D3AE19}

If you get prompted for a password just hit CANCEL, it will play anyway.

To further your education into Dynamic Stability then go to the GyroWiki and read Greg Gremminger's articles on the subject.

Another good page is here:

http://www.prachapter34.com/gyro_safety.htm

.


Thanks for the explaination. Great presentation too. I am learning so much, sometimes I forget what I already know and need to be refreshed, especially with all the terms. I heard alot of discussion at Mentone about Horizonal Stabilizers. The guy (can't remember his name) that had the one of the Magni's gave a pretty good presentation on HS. Made alot of sense. That powerpoint should be required reading for newbies.

All right, going to go reread the "Rotorcraft flying handbook" so I stop asking dumb questions. Thanks again.
 
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LARRYEBOYER

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Accidents have occurred in virtually every make and brand. Knowing the dos and don'ts of gyro flying(its called training in type)will insure your safety. That and proper maintainence.I have owned 3 RAF's in different configs and all flew well and in some very windy conditions.(over 40knots in a thunderstorm with gusty conditions).Raf needs a stab. It is not a bandade fix, it is a necessity. There are many good stabs out there. I sell the whale tale type as described in an earlier post designed by Larry Martin and it is very effective on a unmodified RAF.Takes the pitch issues out of the equasion.I have flown a Benson with a stab, Air Command Elite and RAF's. I prefer the flight characterists of the RAF. My RAF is modified to give it a better CLT approach, yet the standard RAF with the ultimate stab flies very stable and virtually hands off. Beaty can preach his same sermon and give his inexperienced opinion of the RAF, but I have 6 years experience owning/flying RAFs and they are an excellent aircraft.Spend some money getting the machine you choose test flown and a conditional inspection plus training with an experienced RAF CFI and you should not be disappointed in your purchase and your investment should hold its value if you care for it properly.Other advise given before mine is ask the man that owns one.You got my 2 cents.
 

C. Beaty

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Accidents have occurred in virtually every make and brand.
Sure, Larry. I imagine that somewhere, someone has choked on mashed potatoes. But if it happened at the rate of RAF fatalities, potatoes would have been outlawed long ago.
 

Harry_S.

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The first two RAFs had “stabilators;” the second two had horizontal tails. All four bored smoking holes in the ground.

Mother Nature ultimately wins.


Steady now Chuck...that's neither factual nor totally honest. ;)


Cheers :)
 

Gary_in_Orygun

Ex-RAF 2000 Driver
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Hillsboro, Oregon
I haven't been around much so missed this post when it first appeared. I'm glad that some "real" RAF owners/flyers helped to round out the storyline here.

I have over 300 hours in my moderately modified RAF2000. I say moderately, because I feel the SparrowHawk mods are major, a horizontal stabilizer modification is more moderate. I also have Sport Rotors (from Sport Copter) and their beefy rotorhead. One of the best mods is the Don Parham suspension landing gear.

I fly my machine within it's limitations and ignore scare-tactics from those such as C Beaty. But I do take into account the facts of flying a high-thrustline machine. (See my signature.) No need to stay away from the machine, but understanding it and flying accordingly is being a responsible pilot.
 

C. Beaty

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Steady now Chuck...that's neither factual nor totally honest. ;)Cheers :)
Love, Harry, is an irrational state that humans often find themselves in; normally with a member of the opposite sex.

But some fall in love with a piece of machinery with such an intense passion that all semblance of rationality is lost. Any negative fact about the object of their devotion is taken as a personal insult.

However, the facts are what they are; at least 13 fatal crashes in the US out of 257 on the registry and in the last few years, fatal crashes in the UK, Russia, Spain and Australia.

“They all had insufficient training of were victims of heart attacks.”

Ever wonder why there are no heart attack victims or inadequately trained pilots in Dominators, for instance?
 

John Stahl

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the sub 2.2 is a little under powered
parts are a little hard to get.
i think i would start out by offering $20,000.00
dont think i would go over 25

But i am scotish and dont like to part with my money
 
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Mike484

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A good RAF sells for $15,000 to $20,000 in todays market. This has the Sparrow Hawk conversion which will add value. MHO is this should sell for $20,000 on the low side, $30,000 on the high side.
 

Passin' Thru

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Love, Harry, is an irrational state that humans often find themselves in; normally with a member of the opposite sex.

But some fall in love with a piece of machinery with such an intense passion that all semblance of rationality is lost. Any negative fact about the object of their devotion is taken as a personal insult.

However, the facts are what they are; at least 13 fatal crashes in the US out of 257 on the registry and in the last few years, fatal crashes in the UK, Russia, Spain and Australia.

“They all had insufficient training of were victims of heart attacks.”

Ever wonder why there are no heart attack victims or inadequately trained pilots in Dominators, for instance?
I am reminded of an old song; "Don't say nuthin' bad about ma' baby!":tape::D
 
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