RAF 2000 for sale

Mayfield said:
When I fly a Pitts, I often have multiple landings for every takeoff.:)
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There was a guy in a big local aerospace company that I won't mention who test flew some of their UAV's
Those in the advanced project dept. would joke about how he had at least 500 flights with no landings!!!!!
I only found out about this when I did a demo of a 12" UAV for them back in 2002 and I caught it for the landing.
One of the people told me they had never seen a landing that didn't involve shedding parts!!
 
Jim Logan from Long Island was my first CFI . He introduced me to the RAF, and instructed in his RAF some 3000 plus hours , all without a HS!
 
Hi Abid - You are correct and there are clearly more "newer" gyros flying than RAFs and when you look at the stats by individual model type the incident rate (especially just fatal) is dramatically reduced as a % of the population of that model registered. The current crop of gyros I mentioned previously, have a good or perhaps even great track record. It is a shame that everything has to be lumped under the EAB classification. I appreciate the clarification and am sensitive that you sell a gyro that indeed has a great record [yes I ran the numbers]. Any fatality regardless of make/model is a horrible event and even the safest gyro can't account for stupidity/pilot error. It seems there is always going to be a % of fatal accidents in the EAB world [aviation in general] for all makes/models/classification of aircraft...certainly no different in the trike world. Focusing just on fatalities, I don't know what ratio of fatalities to flying aircraft becomes a benchmark with which to gauge the proper design aspects of an aircraft. As Jim mentioned, RAF is out-of-whack significantly on the stats side but can be made "safer".

From my perspective, I want to fly the "safest" aircraft possible so I can focus on my piloting skills. During my trike flying days, my instructor was Reb Wallace whom I believe you know at least by name. We flew the Northwing Navajo with the 583 and a Mustang 15 wing. I always felt comfortable in that trike and took the approach that I trust Reb, and his selection of that particular trike to use as a trainer must be based on sound reasoning. Never did I have a doubt about the integrity of the trike. As you know, Reb had a fatal accident that killed he and his brand new sport pilot student. I of course was devastated by this event. If memory serves me, Reb was flying a Northwing Sport with a 912 and Quest wing which I believe he had acquired a few months prior to the accident. No point going into all the details here as the accident report is available BUT my point is that I had a connection with both my instructor and the aircraft he was flying...a great combination for a student! If I pursue gyro, I want that same connection and my frustration is that if I train in let's say an M24, when it comes time to solo, I can't afford to buy that machine and I have to fly something else solo...there goes all my confidence [at least that's what goes through my mind presently].
 
GeneralPatton said:
Jim Logan from Long Island was my first CFI . He introduced me to the RAF, and instructed in his RAF some 3000 plus hours , all without a HS!
Click to expand...
Jim was a bigger than life character. When he would visit while in the Phoenix area, he would regale us with stories of flying Hillers and Bells among the tall buildings in NYC for the NYPD.

Jim was in town for the Copper State Fly-in. It was in the late 90s. We decided to fly from my base at GYR to Copper State in a loose two ship formation. After a nice day at the fly-in we were flying back to GYR, again in formation, when Jim called on the radio and said, "I'm showing about 130, what are you doing?" I replied, " about 75." Jim came back and said, "You need to fix your ASI." I didn't respond.

After we landed and got both our gyros into my hangar, I looked his pretty green machine over carefully. I observed that the line from the static port of his ASI was hanging loosely under the panel. I asked him about it. He said, "I had to disconnect it because it was causing my airspeed to read 25 or 30 too low." Jim had a very dry sense of humor. Maybe he was jerking my chain.

Jim
 
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wilsonballew said:
Hi Abid - You are correct and there are clearly more "newer" gyros flying than RAFs and when you look at the stats by individual model type the incident rate (especially just fatal) is dramatically reduced as a % of the population of that model registered. The current crop of gyros I mentioned previously, have a good or perhaps even great track record. It is a shame that everything has to be lumped under the EAB classification. I appreciate the clarification and am sensitive that you sell a gyro that indeed has a great record [yes I ran the numbers]. Any fatality regardless of make/model is a horrible event and even the safest gyro can't account for stupidity/pilot error. It seems there is always going to be a % of fatal accidents in the EAB world [aviation in general] for all makes/models/classification of aircraft...certainly no different in the trike world. Focusing just on fatalities, I don't know what ratio of fatalities to flying aircraft becomes a benchmark with which to gauge the proper design aspects of an aircraft. As Jim mentioned, RAF is out-of-whack significantly on the stats side but can be made "safer".

From my perspective, I want to fly the "safest" aircraft possible so I can focus on my piloting skills. During my trike flying days, my instructor was Reb Wallace whom I believe you know at least by name. We flew the Northwing Navajo with the 583 and a Mustang 15 wing. I always felt comfortable in that trike and took the approach that I trust Reb, and his selection of that particular trike to use as a trainer must be based on sound reasoning. Never did I have a doubt about the integrity of the trike. As you know, Reb had a fatal accident that killed he and his brand new sport pilot student. I of course was devastated by this event. If memory serves me, Reb was flying a Northwing Sport with a 912 and Quest wing which I believe he had acquired a few months prior to the accident. No point going into all the details here as the accident report is available BUT my point is that I had a connection with both my instructor and the aircraft he was flying...a great combination for a student! If I pursue gyro, I want that same connection and my frustration is that if I train in let's say an M24, when it comes time to solo, I can't afford to buy that machine and I have to fly something else solo...there goes all my confidence [at least that's what goes through my mind presently].
Click to expand...

There is always going to be a fatal rate in not just EAB but all GA world and I am going to predict that in near future it is going to increase for all of GA before coming back down to what it should be and staying there for a while but that's a different topic altogether.
I knew Reb Wallace and I know what happened with him in his fatal. It was not the trike's fault.
Never ever get too impressed by number of hours people have. I can assure you that if you are doing basics wrong for 5000 hours, you are just experienced in doing them very well incorrectly. That's all. I cannot tell you how many trike pilots I saw like that out there. There was a 20,000 hour trike pilot in Kawai, HI like that and he became a customer and came to fly in Florida. He was like that. Eventually died in a fiery crash in a Revo. He had nine lives and I think he pulled a 10th there.
I would encourage you if you were going for a RAF 2000 to get one that already has a tail on it or put a tail on it. It has a very high thrust line and simply makes sense that that has to create a negative pitching moment. There isn't any doubt about that. Even assuming that the rotor disc creates zero pitching moment, you still have the high thrust line negative pitching moment present. We know in airplanes all airplane wings create generally negative pitching moments unless you have a flying wing or delta wing like a trike, and in all airplanes, we see engineers and designers have a tail. RAF cannot defy Physics and knowing that it has a high thrust line, it would be kind of foolish to think they can outmaneuver all airplane designers and somehow get away without a tail. Rotor can help stabilize it, but it will be effective in specific circumstances and then in one speed and combination of up or downdraft it will be overcome. Pilot can develop the skill to handle that. Yes. But with a lot of work and there is no need for that.
In tailless aircraft like trike or flying wings, we have plenty of washout and the wingtips fall behind and act like a balancing tail but at the expense of efficiency usually. There is some cutting-edge aerodynamics about flying wings recently coming from NASA that have taken classic theories forward and may be able to optimize flying wings to the point of beating the straight wing and tail airplane model even ones optimized to elliptical lift distribution. But that has nothing to do with rotary wing aircraft.
 
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Drop keel lowering engine 6 in, Stabilator, larry boyer/larry ellerman/ horizontal, axle back 4 in, 2.5 with 1500 cam grind, gyrotech tower & blades (now fit RAF, Sparrowhawk, AC), 4 or 5 blade prop. Flys straight, stable, and fast. 3,800 rpm/80 If you have only the Stabilator thats all you probably need.

Talked to D Hund today if you want his contact info. He is in Michigan. Still has his trailer and gyro.
 
I don't care what anyone says, or what stats someone posts... A bone stock unmodified RAF2000 is a dangerous gyro to fly.

Obviously it has a high thrust line... That is it's biggest problem. If the rotor is unloaded, even for a moment and the engine is making significant thrust, your going to " Bunt " over and tumble to your death. Plain and simple.

It has happened to quite a number of people. And although in some of those cases, the pilot truly brought it on ( by doing hot dog type flying maneuvers ), to other pilots, this simply caught them by surprise.

There are things that can be done to minimize this risk.

1. Good training.

2. A good properly designed and installed Horizontal stabilizer

3. RAF's " Stabilator ", this does make a difference, it doesn't really correct for the HTL, but does make it less likely to get into a unloaded situation

4. Engine lowering / Drop keel modification. Obviously there is the " Sparrowhawk " conversion that some did that made the RAF a CLT machine, but there is also a modification that is less severe that lowers the engine and prop a few inches and is relatively easy to do and every inch you lower that prop is less chance of a PPO.

5. Fly the machine well aware of what it can do that will kill you, and have great respect for that.

Then on top of the high thrust line, there are other issues with the RAF to be aware of. I can not speak of the newer RAF machines, but on older ones there were issues with the rotor blades, and or hub bar. There were issues with the rod ends in the controls as well. And with a little research I am sure there were other issues that were discovered and modifications or improvements / part replacements that were recommended. So if your considering a older used RAF kit or already built and flying machine, you will want to really go through it to make sure the parts there are all up to the task.

If the idea of flying a RAF 2000 appeals to you, and you find a deal on a good used one, or are willing to buy and import a new one, if you follow all five of my list of things to do, you will likely be just fine.

I personally, don't really like how cramped the cockpit is in the RAF gyro. The seat is not comfortable, and the shape of the cabin is too small for what I would consider comfortable as well. Probably the one thing I do find appealing about the RAF, is the mast folds back fairly easily and the gyro isn't very wide, so it can be rolled into a relatively standard sized enclosed trailer for transport or even storage. You should be able to roll one into a 6x12 or for sure a 7x14 standard height enclosed trailer with ease... This makes it easy to drive it to fly in's that are long distances away, and with a little set up, you can camp inside the trailer when the gyro is out of it.
 
We need to be cautious before selectively quoting statistics.

The best numbers we have (without a hundred hours of detailed research into the history of the RAF 2000 production timeline)

are

ROTORSPOT - Rotorcraft database search result

Rotorspot is the online hotspot dedicated to rotorcraft registrations/serials and production data. Rotorspot detailed search results can be found on this 'database search result' page.
www.rotorspot.nl www.rotorspot.nl
the numbers produced (638, ignoring 6 Sparrowhawks which I will consider separately), which may be an underestimate.

and

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

Aviation Safety Network: Aviation Safety Network: Databases containing descriptions of over 11000 airliner write-offs, hijackings and military aircraft accidents.
aviation-safety.net
the number of fatal accidents (28), which may be a slight underestimate. It is certainly worth reading the summaries of these accidents...

Therefore the fatals/hulls percentage is 28/638 or 4.4% [about 1 in 23 of these machines has delivered a fatality]

The comparable figures for the Sparrowhawk are

ROTORSPOT - Rotorcraft database search result

Rotorspot is the online hotspot dedicated to rotorcraft registrations/serials and production data. Rotorspot detailed search results can be found on this 'database search result' page.
www.rotorspot.nl www.rotorspot.nl

Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > ASN Aviation Safety Database results

Aviation Safety Network: Aviation Safety Network: Databases containing descriptions of over 11000 airliner write-offs, hijackings and military aircraft accidents.
aviation-safety.net

Therefore the fatals/hulls percentage is 4/89 or also 4.4% [about 1 in 22 of these machines has delivered a fatality]

I am unable to distinguish between machines which had a H-stab, and those that did not. We might expect an improvement, in which case the non H-stab fatal rate would be significantly worse than 4.4%.

For comparison, here are the fatal/hulls % for the "Big Three", based on more accurate data than the above.

AutoGyro - 1.3% [1 in 77 machines]
Magni - 2.2% [1 in 45 machines]
ELA - 4.4% [1 in 23 machines]
Overall - 1.9% [1 in 51 machines]

Encouragingly, most of the accidents are in the fairly distant past, and the "Big Three" fatal rate is certainly in long-term decline, although there were - and may still be - sharp differences between countries.
 
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The UK AAIB thoroughly investigated these machines after the fatal accident to G-REBA in 2006.

They did not like what they discovered. They halved the VNE and only permitted flight with the doors OFF for unmodified machines.

I am uncertain what the UK position is on machines that have the addition of a large horizontal stabiliser and other modifications.

Accident RAF 2000 GTX-SE G-REBA,

Written off (destroyed) 01-06-2006 when crashed west of Simon’s Stone, Colliford Lake, Bodmin Moor, Cornwall. The pilot (the sole person on board) was killed. According to the following...
aviation-safety.net
 

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GeneralPatton said:
Jim Logan from Long Island was my first CFI . He introduced me to the RAF, and instructed in his RAF some 3000 plus hours , all without a HS!
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Many people ride a unicycle without incident that doesn't mean it's a safe design. Flying an RAF with no HS is like playing Russian Roulet.

No aircraft should be so pitch unstable that it's on the verge of going divergent and relies on only the pilot's quick reflexes to avert disaster. Some military fighters are made like this and only fly with the aid of computers.
 
GyroChuck said:
What is the price of an RAF 2000 with a 2.5 soob. I looked on their website but I couldn't find any prices.

Also have to consider the cost of shipping across the pond.
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Hey GyroChuck: The cost of shipping from SA to Colorado Springs has been quoted at $8,900 airfreight door to door or $7,300 ocean freight door-to-door. Based on the quote from RAF of $45,700 USD for the 2.5 plus $7,300 USD shipping, $53K total for the gyro.
 
wilsonballew said:
Hey GyroChuck: The cost of shipping from SA to Colorado Springs has been quoted at $8,900 airfreight door to door or $7,300 ocean freight door-to-door. Based on the quote from RAF of $45,700 USD for the 2.5 plus $7,300 USD shipping, $53K total for the gyro.
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Add in a few more grand for paint, finishes.... Then radios, transponder and ABS-B in out.... Then more money on a horizontal stabilizer ( if any are still being produced for this kit? )... You'll likely be 60 grand all in easily. And then at that point you are in a gyro with a cramped cockpit, and the potential to kill you with the high thrust line, and a auto engine that is hit or miss on problems. Not much more money can get you into a " Euro " gyro that would be far better in my opinion.
 
GyroRon said:
Add in a few more grand for paint, finishes.... Then radios, transponder and ABS-B in out.... Then more money on a horizontal stabilizer ( if any are still being produced for this kit? )... You'll likely be 60 grand all in easily. And then at that point you are in a gyro with a cramped cockpit, and the potential to kill you with the high thrust line, and a auto engine that is hit or miss on problems. Not much more money can get you into a " Euro " gyro that would be far better in my opinion.
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But wait Ron. The SA' s say it's a safe machine. How could their opinion be biased? I mean they are of the same thought that there is nothing wrong with the machine who's own unstable flight path killed the owner along with two other people in another machine.

Any other stable gyro wouldn't have ballooned up into the rotors of the gyro behind it.
 
RAFSA has done nothing-to-little to refine the design they bought from Canada. AFAIK, the parts are still made in Canada, so there is inherent freight costs of two unnecessary ocean trips (Canada-RSA-USA). You may want to ask RAFSA about that.

Once any decent H-stab was added, the RAF buntovers all but ceased. I haven't heard of one in probably 15 years. Nearly all gyros still have a high thrustline, it's just a matter of degree. I think the Magni M24 is higher than even the RAF. It's the H-stab which tames the issue, that and responsible piloting.

If I were you, I'd find a decent used RAF with all the necessary upgrades, and turbo-normalise it (even the 2.2 liter) for $2k. As GyroRon explained, a brand new RAF kit is not the way to go. You could be flying such a gyro for $30-35k, less than half the price of a used Eurotub. Good luck with your gyro journey, and do please keep up posted.
 
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Before I paid 50K for an RAF kit, I would buy a used one for 25K. Once you get to the 60k range you can find used Magni’s and other used newer models available. The RAFs I’ve seen for 20-25 K have been in great shape with radios and paint too. Some are proven with fight time. Other have yet to be flown (these should be looked at closely to find the “why”).
 
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