RAF 2000 crash

Aussie_Paul

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Hey all you guys using CLT as the be all and end all!!!! A better word to use is "stable". A stable gyro is what we want whether it be CLT or not.

I used to use the CLT terminology until I built Hybrid and flew a Magni. Now I feel it is more accurate to use the words "a stable gyro" rather than a CLT gyro.

FWIW :)

Aussie Paul. :)

Aussie Paul.
 

Chuck_Ellsworth

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Yes, Paul the best description to use is " Stable ".

I aso found the difference in stability between the Magni and the RAF 2000 to be like night and day.

If only the Magni had a full enclosure it would be just perfect for flying in cold climates.....

....However, if you build a Ltttle Wing you will have both stability and an enclosed cabin.

Looking foward to seeing your machine ready for sale.
 

Aussie_Paul

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Yes, Paul the best description to use is " Stable ".

I aso found the difference in stability between the Magni and the RAF 2000 to be like night and day.

If only the Magni had a full enclosure it would be just perfect for flying in cold climates.....

....However, if you build a Ltttle Wing you will have both stability and an enclosed cabin.

Looking foward to seeing your machine ready for sale.
Thanks Chuck.

Aussie Paul. :)
 

Chopper Reid

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Yes, Paul the best description to use is " Stable ".

I aso found the difference in stability between the Magni and the RAF 2000 to be like night and day.

If only the Magni had a full enclosure it would be just perfect for flying in cold climates.....

....However, if you build a Ltttle Wing you will have both stability and an enclosed cabin.

Looking foward to seeing your machine ready for sale.
If the Magni had a full enclosure, it wouldnt be stable, thats why they have the bob sled arrangement, its a lot easier that way !!
 

Aussie_Paul

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If the Magni had a full enclosure, it wouldnt be stable, thats why they have the bob sled arrangement, its a lot easier that way !!
Why Brian?

Aussie Paul. :)
 

LARRYEBOYER

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Ron. If you handed your gyro over to a fixed wing pilot without any training other than a few minutes of ground school from you and suggested he take it up for a spin,you and they are nuts!!!How can you post on here with any credence to the issue of a safe gyro and flying safely, then do what you said you did?The best analigy I can come up with is handing a loaded gun to a young child with instruction as to how to pull the trigger. Now go play.
I hope you were just kidding, otherwise if you keep up that thought process that your gyro is so safe it doesn't need any training to fly and you continue to urge people to give it a try, we will be reading of another accident soon.
 

C. Beaty

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I don’t understand why, Larry. A stable gyro flies like a draggy fixed wing airplane. There’s no magic or special talent required.

But then I can’t possibly view it from your perspective
 

GyroRon

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I don’t understand why, Larry. A stable gyro flies like a draggy fixed wing airplane. There’s no magic or special talent required.

But then I can’t possibly view it from your perspective
Exactly. Yeah it would blow my mind too if all I flew were gyros like the RAF and I thought about letting a fixed wing pilot fly it without hours upon hours of training first. But I fly both airplanes, ultralights, and gyros and know my gyro and how it flys... Other than rotor management on the ground and during the takeoff run, it flys no different than some popular fixed wing ultralights.

I told him to avoid negative or zero G, and other than that I saw no way for him to get in trouble once the wheels left the ground.

I do not think it is adviseable to skip training just cause you plan to fly a Dominator or some other stable gyro, but if you already are a experienced pilot in Fixed wing, especially ultralights, there is not much instruction needed other than rotor management.

I only took 4.5 hours of training before I started flying gyros and I did that training in a highly UNSTABLE gyro. A good bit of the time spent in my lessons was learning to detect and deal with that gyros lack of stability. The rest was learning rotor management.
 

gyromike

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The first time I soloed a gyro was the first time I was in one. I'm one of the FW guys who got a quick briefing and hopped in.

I did six runs down the runway to practice balancing on the mains, and on the sixth one I was airborne. I did a couple more hours of runway flight practicing spot landing before venturing off, but it was really no big deal. The gyro had a tall tail and h-stab centered in the prop wash.

However (and I stress this to anyone wanting to learn), I was already a FW pilot with mostly taildragger time, and I had experience in ultralights too. So I knew how to fly and what it was like to be out in the open. I had also spent a couple of years learning how a gyro is supposed to fly.

We had a friend who also FW and ultralight qualified, and cut him loose in a Bensen with an h-stab on it after explaining how to prerotate and balance on the mains. He didn't have a problem with it.

Mike Morgan is another FW pilot I coached who spent a couple of hours learning rotor management and how to spool up the blades, and he was off to the races.
 

Chuck_Ellsworth

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For an experienced pilot flying a gyro is no big deal, like Ron A. said with a good ground briefing about rotor management and a few pointers on what to expect handling wise there is nothing difficult about flying a stable gyro.

My first exposure to gyros was with Dan Haseloh in the RAF and I found it to be "twitchy" in pitch and sloppy in yaw, however it was just another flying machine and once I figured out how to dampen the pitch occilations it was no problem.

My next flying was with Harry Cordon in a tandem Parsons and he gave me some good dual on balancing on the mains and crow hops..no problem it was easy to fly.

So I agree with Ron A. a good pilot should be able to fly a stable gyro with a good ground briefing.

Just imagine I'm defending Ron A....miracles will never cease. :D
 

C. Beaty

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I recently received an E-mail from someone who had watched me at Bensen Days coach a Japanese pilot on how to fly my gyro using sign language –neither of us spoke a word of the other’s language.

This took place 8-10 years ago and the person that sent me the E-mail didn’t introduce himself; he just stayed in the background and watched. He was interested in gyros but had heard how dangerous they were.

That person now holds several of the official world records for gyroplanes.
 

Chopper Reid

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Why Brian?

Aussie Paul. :)
You would know the answer better than me Paul as I'm no techy but in short the answer is that a side by side cab creates new flow lines for the air and unless you get the cab shape right then its not going to be stable. The Magni with its little pod doesnt distrurb the air all that much.
Its interesting that some cabins behave [fly] better with doors off than on which puzzels me although these do not have the engine faired as well.
 

lanichol

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Here you go Thom. Here's a photo of a stable RAF.
Here is a side view with the builder KJ. It shows the center line and also the IVO prop & bushings.
 

Attachments

StanFoster

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Larry: Thanks for posting that picture of Kennys J's AAI/RAF. That is a good sideview of the Ivoprop magnum I just ordered. Kenny had a real nice writeup about the performance of that prop.


Stan
 

gyro-3xio

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Could someone post the "numbers" for accidents by gyro type?
That would be interesting to see.
I'll rephrase that,... are there FAA numbers categorized by gyro type?

Jim.
 

C. Beaty

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George Townson was one of the pioneer Autogiro pilots and served as test pilot for the Herrick Convertiplane as well as for Piasecki’s first helicopters.

His book: “AUTOGIRO” contains a wealth of interesting historical information.

In discussing the disposal of Kellett KD-1s that had been used by the Border Patrol along the Texas-US border he writes:

“………One found its way to Canada where Atlas Aviation wanted to use it for towing advertising banners. The author “taught” their pilot to fly it by telephone and he made a successful solo flight.”

Now, 70 years later, we have “progressed” to the point such a thing would be suicidal in an RAF-2000, or as Larry Boyer so aptly puts it, like handing a loaded pistol to a toddler.
 

Rotornut

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Stan, I stoped reading at page 14 and had to jump here to say. You have gone above and beyond to Improve your Sparrow and you are very Concerened about making sure you pre-flight each trip up and I think your Great for being on top of your machine and the need of Attention.

I Wish I seen everyone Pre-Flight before each flight. But to be honest I see many pilots not looking after the first flight, and just taking off on the second or third flight without the pre-flight look over. Bet Richard has done that hisself. Thats why I look it over each time its on the ground that I am around not that I would spot a flaw but gives me peace of mind and makes me feel better.

Take Care and remember each pilot has his own ideas and thoughts about flight and flying machines. MJ :)
 

Rotornut

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Harry Cordon Now there is a Name I have not seen in awhile Chuck.

OK I dont want any emails are lol or show me I am wrong I want to know if I understand this RAF Accident
Was the accident due to PPO if I am wrong just say so dont finger point as I am not a pilot and I read all the post to try to understand the cause for it. Sticking my neck out here so go easy.
Richard does not know I am trying to understand the cause and we have not talked about that.

Chuck Beatty dont hit me to hard lol.

MJ :)
 
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