Quebec accident

Chuck_Ellsworth

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Just caught the end of a news item about a fatality in Quebec, missed most of it but they showed a picture of a red RAF 2000.

This is a bad day for checking up on the gyro community, first I read of Ken R. with utter disbeliefe...just can't imagine Ken dying in his beautiful machine.

Now a few minutes later I see another news item about another fatality.

Very disturbing and very sad indeed.

Chuck E.
 
Fatalities

Fatalities

Indeed it is Chuck. I hate to hear us lose a community member no matter what the cause, but when its a flying accident it just makes it all the worse.

I spent nearly all night at the job reading up on all the stuff I missed as it has come put about Gyros. Havent changed my mind and it still looks like a Little Wing at this point. Got plenty of time to read these days.

All the rest of everyone (YA'LL) be careful out there I dont wanna hear about more of yas the way Chuck has.

Scotty
 
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Quebec accident

In deed there was a fatal accident this morning in Saint-Hyacinthe,abouth 45 min from Montreal.
The victim was a good frend ,Michel Vallière was i beleave the only Canadien CFI ,he was flying a RAF 2000.
The NTSB investigators whill be back tomorow to continue the investigation.
He was flying gyros since abouth 1990,he started in Italy where he assembled his air command and flown it there for abouth 3 years ,after whitch he flown it in California for abouth an other 2 1/2 years ,where he was a member of Ken Brooks PRA chapter .He then came back to Quebec where he has been flying ever since ,and i know he became the only CFI in Quebec ,
in 2004.

Whitness say there was a strike of the rotor on the back of the ship ,and he went nose down , explosion on impac and then the fire .
After inspection of what is left of the RAF ( whitch is not mutch ) many parts are stil not found .whil have more info on sunday.

Line Richer & Jean Belair
 
Whenever a pilot splatters in a poorly designed deathtrap*, the soulful refrain of the know nothings goes: “Training, Training, Training; how could anyone expect to fly a gyro without proper training?” But they’re strangely silent when a gyro-trained pilot makes a smoking hole in one of these machines.

The unfortunate victim in Quebec started in a Dennis Fetters AirComand and no doubt learned to cope with its instabilities such as pitching the wrong way in gusts so that transitioning to a stabless RAF-2000 with similar behavior didn’t seem at all abnormal.

A competent fixed wing pilot can safely fly a stable gyro with no more training than is required to manage the rotor.

My old Bensen with seat tank and lightweight wheels was very nearly CLT and in addition, had a large horizontal stab mounted under the vertical tail. It was flown by 3 helicopter pilots and 1 fixed wing with no previous gyro training without difficulty.

Ron Awad, in a earlier posting, mentioned his FW buddy flew his Dominator without difficulty.

No amount of training can make going over Niagara Falls in a barrel safe. No amount of training can make an unstable gyro safe. Anyone that thinks so is an idiot.

*I should have said: “poorly designed gyro; well designed deathtrap”
 
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Good morning Chuck B.

I am considered a "Basher" here in this group so I can not comment to much regarding RAF and their instructors or I risk being banned again.

However I hope that mentioning that three Gyroplane instructors have died in Canada in the RAF 2000 will not be grounds for banning me again.

By the way one of them was a very high time helicopter pilot, of course according to RAF and their instructors he was trying to do loops with it and something went wrong.

C.E.
 
Good afternoon, Chuck “Basher” Ellsworth.

It is sickening that a company such as RAF Marketing, without a single employee that has any knowledge of engineering or aeronautics can stay in business and sell flying coffins to an unsuspecting and gullible public. Aided and abetted by the Pablum* artists.

Pab·lum (pabÆlÃm),
1. Trademark. a brand of soft, bland cereal for infants.
–n.
2. (l.c.) trite, naive, or simplistic ideas or writings; intellectual pap.
 
But Chuck, they look good and are easy to get in and out of!

Yeap, even though it wasn't a very smart thing to do, I did let a fixed wing pilot friend of mine get in and fly my Dominator on several occasions. He had no previous gyro or helicopter flight time, only airplanes. Once he was briefed on rotor management and had a good grasp on how to takeoff without flapping the blades, up up and away he went. I got another fixed wing pilt friend who is not as brave, but it about to fly my gyro any day now. He has been running it up and down the runway balancing on the mains and getting the gyro so light the wheels are barely touching. When he gets the courage up he is ready to fly it IMHO.

Would I have let either fly it had it been a HTL gyro like a RAF. Not a chance.

When people learn to use their heads and make wise choices, they will want a machine that is as safe as possible and flys stable, and then not worry what the result looks like.
 
Hsello to one and all

I would like to take this opportunity to make a personal note here, my companion is working toward her fw pilots license and is flying a Cessna 150.

Early in her training she had a real fear of doing stalls and a fear of a spin. However once it was demonstrated that you had to really work to put the aircraft into a stall and that if you just realeased the controls, the aircraft would come out of the stall and right itself and begin to fly in a controlable manner, she was much more at ease. It was also demonstrated that if the plane was "FORCED" into a spin and again the controls released the craft would not remain in a spin but would right itself in usually less than one turn and start to fly in a controlable manner, now she is again more secure in her understanding of the designed safety of the aircraft. This is what has made the Cessna 150 probably the best and most used trainer of more pilots than any other model.

It is the design stability of the aircraft that has allowed many a student to screw up big time and come back again with another chance to learn to do it right the next time and go on to become a "better and more experienced pilot" and have a happy ending. The design qualities of our aircraft can and and should be of no lesser standards. I am happy to say that I feel that many of todays designs now approach or meet those quality standards, others unfortunately do not. I think that Ken"s accident will be one of the very rare that does not involve the pio/ppo syndrome.

Hopefully these many replies and post will cause some of the newcomers to take serious note of the factors of design.

Tony
 
Ron, at Bensen Days several years ago, a gentleman with a gaggle of cameras and exposure meters hanging around his neck was going over my gyro in considerable detail.

He introduced himself as the editor of the French ultralight aviation magazine Vol Moteur so I asked him if he wanted to fly it. Indeed he did and to this day, I don’t know if he’d ever flown a gyro before.

He flew just fine and among the gadgets hanging around his neck was an altimeter and stopwatch that he used to get rate of climb data for the article he published.

I still have a copy of the magazine he sent me but my place got flooded and it’s as solid as a board.
 
Chuck, I really honestly don't think some people in the gyro community know how forgiving and easy a truely stable gyro is.

I think that just because the gyro isn't a extreme handful, or that they can even fly it hands off, that they assume it is stable.

In my opinion, if they got to make corrections in flight, that if not done may result in a crash, then that gyro is certainly not stable. If you have to pull the throttle back and pull the stick back to " stabilize " the gyro because it pitched up or down or yawed hard one way or the other because of a gust or thermal or downdraft..... then it is not stable.

Flying a stable gyro in the air, all that any pilot needs to know that is special to gyroplanes, is to avoid low or negative G loading, and don't attempt any loops or other low G risk aerobatics. If a fixed wing pilot used to stick and rudder flying wanted to "learn" to fly gyros, if the gyro is stable all the pilot will really need instruction on is rotor management so he doesn't flap the blades on takeoff or let's them hit the ground, or wind get under them from the side....

The people flying machines like RAF's need to ask themselves, would they let just any pilot fly their gyros? Do they ever have to make corrections in flight that involve chopping power and " stabilizing " the gyro? Then ask themselves why they choose to fly a gyro like that, and if they knew more about gyro design and flight handling, would they still choose the unstable machine.
 
Well said Ron....

Well said Ron....

... I have taken gyro pilots with few and many years or hours or both of flying gyros in Hybrid.

Just after lift off I take my hands off the controls. Almost everyone of them got extremelly excited!! They would have their hand ever so close to the stick. After we had gone through a couple of bumps and/or thermals and Hybrid did nothing other than keep on climbing they started to relax. I would then pull the stick back to slow down and then let the stick go. We would end up back as we were before I touched the stick. I would do the reverse and end up back like we were before.

These gyro pilots have never flown, or flown in, a truly stable gyroplane. They have flown in gyros with varying degrees of instability!!!!

The truly strange thing is, I was just like them a few years ago!!!!!:eek:

Aussie Paul.:)
 
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Chuck,

It's funny because I know the french journalist (Philippe TISSERANT) who flew with your gyro. He is well known in France, and surely our best ultralights journalist, it's a good friend.
He's not a very good gyro pilot, but he flies every kind of planes, and he's very serious...
If he accepted to fly with your gyro, it's because he known that it was stable, and easy to fly !

The most surprising is that, many years ago, he told to me that he flew with your gyro, while you have never asked him if he knew how to pilot a gyro ! :p

I was owner of a RAF 2000. It's clear that it isn't easy to fly and very instable. We added a horizontal stabilizer, so it was better, but not very good.
Now I fly with Magni M16, and in a few times with MT03...

Hervé TERRASSON
French CFI
www.autogire.com
 
Hi, Hervé. Thanks for your comments; you’ve answered something that I’ve been curious about for several years.

The reason I didn’t inquire about Mr. Tisserant’s background is that he clearly conveyed the impression of being a responsible person who probably wasn’t damn fool enough to jump in a strange gyro without knowing something about flying.

By that, I don’t necessarily mean gyro flying. He had been present at Bensen Days long enough to have observed many rotor starts and takeoff runs so I was confident he could manage the rotor and once in the air, anyone that could fly an UL could have flown my gyro without difficulty.
 
I would not let an untrained (in gyros) fixed-wing pilot fly my RAF2000 solo, or my Dominator if I had one. Why was the accident rate so high in the early days of gyro flying? No training or adequate experience? Why repeat that scenario now when it is possible to get training.

So, you don't care about risking your machine to let an unqualified person get on it, but don't you care about the risk to the person? How long before this practice bites someone? That is one "another one bites it" report I hope we never see.

I hope new-to-gyros people don't read this thread and figure they can go buy a Dominator, talk to someone about flying, and then get on it and go.
I appreciate the point made here about having a stable machine to fly, but I think you let it go too far.
 
Flying with Jim Mayfield taught me one thing: a gyro is not a fixed-wing or a helicopter. I need a few more hours with Jim at my side before I try to go it alone.
 
Gary, I’ve been at this stuff much longer than you have.

The Sunstate Rotor Club was incorporated in the mid 1960s and hundreds of people learned to fly gyros following the Bensen syllabus and using the club’s 2-sear Gyroglider without anyone getting hurt.

The only fatality I can recall happened on a gusty day when an individual wanted someone to tow him but all club members refused because of the weather. He got his wife to tow him; got his glider upside down and she drug him several hundred yards before looking in the rear view mirror.

I learned to fly by the Bensen method and learned far more than I could have from a proper instructor, simply because the material in the manuals isn’t the sort of snake oil you’ll get from some RAF CFIs I know and because the time spent studying the manual wasn’t costing me $140 per hour.

But it requires a 2-man team to learn to fly by the Bensen method; one to drive the tow car while the other flies. My partner, Bob Carbonell and I learned to fly and never so much as scratched a rotor blade in a period when nearly all landings were the result of an engine failure.

The carnage began with Dennis Fetters and the inverted engine, low rider AirComands.

I understand where you’re coming from; never having flown a stable gyro, it’s inconceivable to you that a competent FW pilot could fly a gyro. But they can fly a Dominator, although I’d agree that a half hour spent with an instructor in a 2-place Dominator shooting touch and goes would be a good investment.

PS: By the way, Gary, where’s your venom when a properly trained CFI bores a smoking hole in the ground with an RAF, the topic of this thread? Do you think he didn’t have enough training?
 
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I thought the time I spent in a gyroglider was invalable during my training. Taught me the light touch needed to fly a single seater, not to mention being loads of fun. Nobody bothers with them here in the UK now but if accident records are looked at, the pre 2 seater days look pretty good. Then we got the Air Commands !
Brian.
 
Brian, the entire State of Florida was nearly paved over with concrete for WWII training airfields. We had a large contingent of RAF cadets near here and an older female cousin of mine who was in her late teens at the time tried to share her charms with each one of them. But that’s beside the point.

All through the ‘60s and ‘70s, most of these ex military airfields were vacant and our club had the run of a 5,000ft runway for glider towing but no longer. Most of the old airfields are now housing subdivisions, industrial parks or shopping malls.

About the only places left for Gyroglider towing would be the dry lakebeds in the western US.

Will we see you at Bensen days this year?
 
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