Psru

1946

Banned
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
675
Location
China
Aircraft
Cessna150
Total Flight Time
16
Albert,

The reason many guys are going to the auto dismantlers is pretty simple, you can't go to a Subaru dealer and ask to buy a complete engine, firstly because it would cost more than the car, if you bought it new, so getting the engine from an auto wreckers, is the cheapest way, and usually many of those engines there is nothing wrong with them, oh sure the car might be smashed all the crap, but the engine well they are in great shape, I have 2 such engines I took from the dismantlers, both are running great one in my boat, and the other in a Zenith STOL.
The Subbie engine parts are cheaper to come by that buying a Lycoming or a Rotax engine, and I agree with you, I am 90% sure many of their parts are made in China, and they sell them like they were made right in the USA.

Look up FreeTrade and NAFTA agreements, lots of stuff is made elsewhere, and sold like it was either Canadian made or made in the USA.

If it smells like poo, its probably poo, same poo, just a different pile.


I hear what you are saying, but looking form the business angle and warranties (36 months/36,000) by the manufacturer, the repair workshops nowadays don’t make real money selling services like greasing, oil changes, SP replacements and whatnot, so they astronomically inflate the spare parts prices.

Most of the OM parts sold in the west are actually made in China, this applies to for Subaru parts too. A ‘genuine’ STI ver8 oil pump, no sure, but believe would be in the vicinity of $180.00 in the sates , the same pump in China cost a mere $ 12.00, I could go one. Manufacturing from China has it benefits, one can import for the processing trade parts from Japan at cost, means a new Subaru block STI ver8 comes to only $220.00 while in the west one has to sell the car to buy the block. The ‘cheap’ made Chinese oil pumps are labeled Made in Japan..!

Thanks
Albert

saoilpump1.jpg
 

Heron

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
7,557
Location
Bauru - Sao Paulo - Brasil
Aircraft
Golden Butterfly
Total Flight Time
7.5 h.
I go by this factory a couple of times per week, during season . .

http://th.mahle.com/C1256F7900537A47/vwContentByKey/W27LWNSV787STULEN/$FILE/Download%20MAHLE%20Aftermarket%20News%203_2008%20.pdf

heron
 

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BoneyM

Newbie
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Aircraft
Bell 206, Beach 99A, SkyMaster....
Total Flight Time
2774
Albert,

You boast about how good these parts are from China, but don't you start importing them so we can have this great parts, at the best prices?
Or does China allow for such a thing to happen....
 

BoneyM

Newbie
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Aircraft
Bell 206, Beach 99A, SkyMaster....
Total Flight Time
2774
I go by this factory a couple of times per week, during season . .

http://th.mahle.com/C1256F7900537A47/vwContentByKey/W27LWNSV787STULEN/$FILE/Download%20MAHLE%20Aftermarket%20News%203_2008%20.pdf

heron

Dead link mate

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Benutzername
Anonymous
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$$WebClient; [WEBAUTHOR]
Erweiterte Benutzerinformation
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Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
1,151
Location
Panama City, Panama
Albert....

I understand you got food poisoning and hope you have recovered well (it does happen I understand) and I hope you are better now, as it was my understanding your case was very serious & life threatening.
---------
That said, I'm gonna call this and your presence on this forum here- frankly, and as I see it.

I'm certain you know the fact that these Soob "boxer" engines are over engineered for general driving purposes, and as such, is exactly why they make excellent engines (despite weight) for use in our sport.
Many have flown stock "bone yard" engines with NO INTERNAL MODIFICATIONS successfully for many years, no issues.
This being the case now for over 20+ years, and hence, the attractiveness of a Soob.

You came to HERE, to this small Aviation community - dangling the "carrot" of an inexpensive PSRU, promoting this product for use in our machines...and even had customers willing to purchase your PSRU outright.
I then found out it was not possible to purchase outright as a single unit (unless all "upgrades were made")....all the BS about "acceptable standards"...blah...blah...blah.

You have in the past provided some concise technical information regarding the units themselves, but- you have not provided to this forum (per my recent request) the EXACT required "upgrades" to make a purchase possible- nor the manner in EXACTLY how to do so to the satisfaction of your "Boss".
Here in the States we call that tactic in marketing "bait & switch".

Since when do manufacture's (of items such as this) dictate exceptions to a sale BEFORE the sale is made..?
(Even if it is done, it typically only voids the warranty...not the SALE).

By the time the litany of "upgrades" was digested, it occurred to me that maybe you should just supply the whole engine ready to go...as I believe this is exactly the future marketing path your Boss intends...ala- Eggenfelter style Soob engine packages w/PSRU.

We would not, nor could not close off your future business prospects here (unlike the Chinese Gov't).
Your not dealing to the Chinese General Aviation community here...we "Gyronuts" here just want and require a quality product...at a price that's affordable to back yard builders...period.

These are either a quality product...or not.
Why not sell a few and make a great track record of satisfied customers with proven use..?
---------
Yes...the builder you referenced OF COURSE had questions...which ranged from the simple to the complex- and he did manage to nail down every technical issue and implement the changes needed to complete his conversion successfully.
(IE: What size/rated fuse for this, what model number starter, etc).

Understand...as a "back yard builder" he doesn't do this for a living...and since he is P.I.C and sole mechanic, wanted to personally understand himself various details...the whys and how's since it's HIS a$$ in the seat.
-----------
Summation:
You either have them for sale at a price...or not.
Please clarify that simple question.
Everything else is BS.
Short of that, your presence here promoting this item is a waste of your time and ours.
 
Last edited:

top fuel

Newbie
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
15
Location
st cloud florida
Aircraft
bell 206a/s bonanza /47bonanza/lightsport/ultralight
Total Flight Time
3,600
autoflight verses aeroflight china built junk!

autoflight verses aeroflight china built junk!

albert ive been watching your forum remarks for a while even looked at you psru reduction box, you seem like a nice fellow your reduction drives are much cheaper,i just dont want to risk my life on your product, with china built products , i hope you consider this when you sell to these drives to other pilots ,its kinda like giving a bullet to someone. i hope that everyone considers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this before they purchase your product! i have decided to purchase neil hinz autoflight psru even though it is a higher priced gear reduction.there is a old saying you get what you pay for!!!!!!!! thanks mark miller
 

1946

Banned
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
675
Location
China
Aircraft
Cessna150
Total Flight Time
16
albert ive been watching your forum remarks for a while even looked at you psru reduction box, you seem like a nice fellow your reduction drives are much cheaper,i just dont want to risk my life on your product, with china built products , i hope you consider this when you sell to these drives to other pilots ,its kinda like giving a bullet to someone. i hope that everyone considers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this before they purchase your product! i have decided to purchase neil hinz autoflight psru even though it is a higher priced gear reduction.there is a old saying you get what you pay for!!!!!!!! thanks mark miller

Of course Mark, the ultimate choice is always made by the consumer; the new consumer trend is driving cheap build Chinese Fords on North America roads. Miss information about Chinese products lends the buyer paying triple for a brand made in China. I am sure the NZ box will preserve your life in the sky; I wish you the best with your project.

Thanks
Albert
 

1946

Banned
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
675
Location
China
Aircraft
Cessna150
Total Flight Time
16
Albert,

You boast about how good these parts are from China, but don't you start importing them so we can have this great parts, at the best prices?
Or does China allow for such a thing to happen....

I suspect you are not reading me well, not boasting anything, just the facts about OM parts manufactured in China. I would be illegal exporting from China OM parts and accessories made on order by western companies, let’s say you are a Canadian manufacturer making an X product. X products is a success but is too expensive to be made in Canada and you are not making a huge profit.

Tickets to China with all the drawings and specification, engage a Chinese manufacturer and of course he will do exactly as per your specifications, otherwise he will not get paid. Samples are made; cost calculations reveal that the X product in China can be made, again, exactly as per your specifications for ¼ you would pay in Canada. You smell huge profits, order 500.000 X products, export it to Canada, fill the stores with X product labeled Made In Canada, you are laughing all the way to the bank. The Chines manufacturer unknowing to you produces 600.000 of your X products and sell it in China, since is cheap, I buy a few too, but would be illegal to export it to Canada.


Thanks
Albert
 

1946

Banned
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
675
Location
China
Aircraft
Cessna150
Total Flight Time
16
Albert....

I understand you got food poisoning and hope you have recovered well (it does happen I understand) and I hope you are better now, as it was my understanding your case was very serious & life threatening.
---------
That said, I'm gonna call this and your presence on this forum here- frankly, and as I see it.

I'm certain you know the fact that these Soob "boxer" engines are over engineered for general driving purposes, and as such, is exactly why they make excellent engines (despite weight) for use in our sport.
Many have flown stock "bone yard" engines with NO INTERNAL MODIFICATIONS successfully for many years, no issues.
This being the case now for over 20+ years, and hence, the attractiveness of a Soob.

You came to HERE, to this small Aviation community - dangling the "carrot" of an inexpensive PSRU, promoting this product for use in our machines...and even had customers willing to purchase your PSRU outright.
I then found out it was not possible to purchase outright as a single unit (unless all "upgrades were made")....all the BS about "acceptable standards"...blah...blah...blah.

You have in the past provided some concise technical information regarding the units themselves, but- you have not provided to this forum (per my recent request) the EXACT required "upgrades" to make a purchase possible- nor the manner in EXACTLY how to do so to the satisfaction of your "Boss".
Here in the States we call that tactic in marketing "bait & switch".

Since when do manufacture's (of items such as this) dictate exceptions to a sale BEFORE the sale is made..?
(Even if it is done, it typically only voids the warranty...not the SALE).

By the time the litany of "upgrades" was digested, it occurred to me that maybe you should just supply the whole engine ready to go...as I believe this is exactly the future marketing path your Boss intends...ala- Eggenfelter style Soob engine packages w/PSRU.

We would not, nor could not close off your future business prospects here (unlike the Chinese Gov't).
Your not dealing to the Chinese General Aviation community here...we "Gyronuts" here just want and require a quality product...at a price that's affordable to back yard builders...period.

These are either a quality product...or not.
Why not sell a few and make a great track record of satisfied customers with proven use..?
---------
Yes...the builder you referenced OF COURSE had questions...which ranged from the simple to the complex- and he did manage to nail down every technical issue and implement the changes needed to complete his conversion successfully.
(IE: What size/rated fuse for this, what model number starter, etc).

Understand...as a "back yard builder" he doesn't do this for a living...and since he is P.I.C and sole mechanic, wanted to personally understand himself various details...the whys and how's since it's HIS a$$ in the seat.
-----------
Summation:
You either have them for sale at a price...or not.
Please clarify that simple question.
Everything else is BS.
Short of that, your presence here promoting this item is a waste of your time and ours.

Our company is hawing serious conversation with and North American aircraft builder, I believe in the next 90/120 days the new die casted boxes with integrated flywheels disc type centrifugal clutches and a Centaflex torsional vibration damper, 3 PSRU will be made available for testing, evaluation, and the sale of it only once the myth of crap, cheap, knock-offs overcomes the misinformed about manufacturing in China.

Thanks
Albert
 

Heron

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
7,557
Location
Bauru - Sao Paulo - Brasil
Aircraft
Golden Butterfly
Total Flight Time
7.5 h.
Its made in China = no good!
Its made in Germany = the best!
Marry the two and you have . . . regular?
Not the way it works . . .the same CNC, material, specs used in Germany will be used in China, the product will be the same.
A cat gives birth in the oven, what comes up, kittens or buns?
This is just ignorance and xenophobia!
Heron
 

BoneyM

Newbie
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
225
Location
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Aircraft
Bell 206, Beach 99A, SkyMaster....
Total Flight Time
2774
No cheap prices

No cheap prices

So its illegal to export from China, wow, better stop sending that junk you guys send us, because its just JYSK, made in China, must have been stolen, or illegally exported. And its ok to sell to other countries but not Canada...

.....I would be illegal exporting from China.....
.......but would be illegal to export it to Canada.......


Thanks
Albert
 

Heron

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
7,557
Location
Bauru - Sao Paulo - Brasil
Aircraft
Golden Butterfly
Total Flight Time
7.5 h.
Boney
Back in the 90s, a friend of mine imported Levy´s 501 from China.
When the container got in Brazil, Levy´s embargoed the transaction. Normal to this point . . .
Then they asked my friend if he wanted to sell them the load, they were short on 501s (made in china for them) and if my friend would "nacionalize" the pieces, by tagging made in Brasil. The process was on courts and my friend had a good chance on winning.
So, in order to end the problem, my friend agreed. Took the batch to another firm and they were sewing the new labels on the jeans, when the police showed up and arrested everyone for counterfiting goods . . .
Levy-s lawyers came up with another pearl, made my friend the bona fide depositary of the cargo (it meant he had to pay storage but not sell) and for two years they fought and my friend won in court, with some losses . . .
Now tell me my friend . . .who´s the bad guy here?
My friend trying to make a buck?
The chinese company that sold what they were not supposed?
Levy´s the all greedy Big Corp?
Heron
P.S. I did not get this thing that is forbiden to export from China . . .does not sound right . . .
 

top fuel

Newbie
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
15
Location
st cloud florida
Aircraft
bell 206a/s bonanza /47bonanza/lightsport/ultralight
Total Flight Time
3,600
like i said albert you seem to be a very bright person! ,everthing that i have ever bought from china is and was second rate. there will always be failures, im saying neil has a good track record and sales and custumer feedback.i have purchased china built turbos,but the bolts were poor quality and broke with lite torue!so i trashed the turbo,just cant take that kinda chance.i must say i find you post intresting and there is lots of information.send me a box ill put it on my dyno and see if i can break it.this was directed to your product ,please forgive me if you thought otherwise sincery mark miller
 

Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
1,151
Location
Panama City, Panama
3 PSRU will be made available for testing, evaluation, and the sale of it only once the myth of crap, cheap, knock-offs overcomes the misinformed about manufacturing in China.

Albert...you've got the Cart before the Horse.

Ya' got to sell some and get them in the Air with real hours on them to prove their quality to those who's lives would be on the line...once shown worthy...people will then view such a product differently.

Your presence here is nothing more than shill BS.... as you have failed to answer simple questions forthrightly that would instill confidence in this product, and instead dance all around the issue.

Take your great product and go home.
I think your boss is as full of it (as are you....since your getting paid to represent this Co.).
Sorry...but that is the way it would appear...per your participation here.
 
Last edited:

1946

Banned
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
675
Location
China
Aircraft
Cessna150
Total Flight Time
16
like i said albert you seem to be a very bright person! ,everthing that i have ever bought from china is and was second rate. there will always be failures, im saying neil has a good track record and sales and custumer feedback.i have purchased china built turbos,but the bolts were poor quality and broke with lite torue!so i trashed the turbo,just cant take that kinda chance.i must say i find you post intresting and there is lots of information.send me a box ill put it on my dyno and see if i can break it.this was directed to your product ,please forgive me if you thought otherwise sincery mark miller


Mark, thanks all the same, have to decline your breaking offer, we have already done our fair share of testing our boxes on an Eddy Dyno, for TV analysis we use equidistant pulses over one shaft revolution and dual-beam laser to measure torsional vibrations. The AeroFlight 33 has been in trail service since Feb 2008 and currently in operations with a Shandong Flight School ,with over 4000hr in flight service with a Subaru EJ225 N/A VTC detuned to 190Hp engine, and a 3 blade electric MT-CS propeller with electric governor

For every 25-30hr in flight, oil samples are taken and send to a lab for further analysis. Had problems with torsional vibration with the original box , the OM flywheel was a flex plate only to start the engine, a proper flywheel was added, and since one doesn’t star his car in gear, we added a disc type centrifugal clutch , the Centaflex torsional vibration damper was retained. We fell now the box has arrived to a mature stage and like mentioned before we have come to the conclusion and to reach more uniformity instead in sand castings, all boxes will be die casted.
Like I mentioned here the boxes will be made available to an aircraft manufacturer, see post 119.

Thanks
Albert


sairengine8.jpg
 

Arnie Madsen

Member
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Messages
4,351
Location
Southport Aerospace - Manitoba Canada
Aircraft
Bell 47 G2
So its illegal to export from China, wow, better stop sending that junk you guys send us, because its just JYSK, made in China, must have been stolen, or illegally exported. And its ok to sell to other countries but not Canada...

I read it different. I could be wrong.

I understood Albert (1946) said he could build 500 components for his (Canadian) customer and the (Canadian) manufacturer would be billed for 1/4 his normal manufacturing costs. This allows a good margin for the wholesaler (in North America)

The China mfg. may run an extra 100 copies to sell to his own China customer . It is profit for him with no harm to his North American customer.

But if he tried to sell any of those extra 100 here, he would be violating his original agreement (with his North American wholesaler) which he does not desire to do.

As far as the quality of the component, it is to the standards of his (North American) wholesaler. It has nothing to do with "China quality"

At least that is how I read it. I could be wrong.

Thanks
Arnie
 

Resasi

Gold Supporter
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
8,223
Location
London/ Kilifi Kenya
Aircraft
Gyrs, RAF 2000/Mgni/Bnsn/Hrnet/Mrlin/Crckt/MT-03/Lyzlle AV18-A/Prdtor. Pax ArrowCopter
Total Flight Time
100+ gyro, 16,000+ other
Certainly makes more sense that way Arnie.

Albert comes across as trying very hard to do business, despite reservations many people have about some of the issues engendered during the time China has been doing trade with the West. Not all his explanations are entirely convincing and he has hurdles to cross but he is certainly working on it.

Foreign manufacturers have gone across there, and do seem to have been able to set up and maintain quality control with the goods up to scratch. How much protection they have and how long remains to be seen.

Yes price matters, and yes goods will be sold, but, it will take time to get past and forget some of the huge amounts of undoubtedly substandard rubbish that has been produced.

Reputation is hard to build, and takes time. Despite the arguments put for 'copying', the avoidance of recognition/payment to origional developers does still stick in the throats of many, even if the price overcomes the scruples of the majority, but steps can be taken in that direction too.

Going directly to developers and dealing with them can be a little more expensive, but with China's low labor charges, still a mutually beneficial exercise. It has, and is, being done, so lets look forward to the time when gyros and their ancillary parts can benefit from lower costs without some of the concerns that have been raised
 

PTKay

Gold Member
Joined
Jan 7, 2004
Messages
3,160
Location
Poland
Aircraft
Socata Rallye
Guys.

I think, all of you don't get it.

If one day, the Chinese will decide, their home market of 1.5 billion
consumers is good enough for them, and they do not need us any more,
we will be looking down the drain...

Why should they bother about such a tiny GA market, like the US,
when with just one stroke of pen they can create a home GA market
10X the size of the US market.

What Arnie writes is absolutely the way it is, and the way Albert wrote it.

But one day this Chinese manufacturer will not bother any more at all
about his 500 units customer in North America, because instead of selling 100 units
to the home market, he would be selling 5000.
So why should he bother about those extra 500 for export.
And, BTW he will not be violating any contract with his US partner,
because this partner, by the contract, granted him generously
the rights to manufacture the product for the Chinese market :)

But the guy in North America will be in big trouble, because by that time
he will not be able to find any other manufacturer around the world for that price.

I don't know, if you noticed, that this year, for the first time the domestic
consumption in China contributed more to the GNP, than exports...
 
Last edited:

Heron

Platinum Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2003
Messages
7,557
Location
Bauru - Sao Paulo - Brasil
Aircraft
Golden Butterfly
Total Flight Time
7.5 h.
You will then, turn to Latin America, namely Brasil . . .
Control your xenophobia while there is still time for some profit!
Heron
 

1946

Banned
Joined
Sep 6, 2010
Messages
675
Location
China
Aircraft
Cessna150
Total Flight Time
16
Certainly makes more sense that way Arnie.

Albert comes across as trying very hard to do business, despite reservations many people have about some of the issues engendered during the time China has been doing trade with the West. Not all his explanations are entirely convincing and he has hurdles to cross but he is certainly working on it.

Foreign manufacturers have gone across there, and do seem to have been able to set up and maintain quality control with the goods up to scratch. How much protection they have and how long remains to be seen.

Yes price matters, and yes goods will be sold, but, it will take time to get past and forget some of the huge amounts of undoubtedly substandard rubbish that has been produced.

Reputation is hard to build, and takes time. Despite the arguments put for 'copying', the avoidance of recognition/payment to origional developers does still stick in the throats of many, even if the price overcomes the scruples of the majority, but steps can be taken in that direction too.

Going directly to developers and dealing with them can be a little more expensive, but with China's low labor charges, still a mutually beneficial exercise. It has, and is, being done, so lets look forward to the time when gyros and their ancillary parts can benefit from lower costs without some of the concerns that have been raised[/QUOTE





Leigh

It is very hard to break in with aviation components in North America no matter how colorful I might up it up. American perception and idiosyncrasies are complex and significant differences in consumer evaluations across the various levels in the population about aviation manufacturing ,caused mainly by the brand, which overshadows country-of-origin effects in the case of the USA, but emphasizes these effects in that of Chinese goods.

I was told by many western aircraft parts manufactures the selling approach should be made as been manufactured in North America, and perhaps there are right. Siemens products are nearly all made in China, exported to Germany, the last crew on a particular item fitted in Germany makes it all Made In Germany. From the inception the company in conjunction with another Asian partner set up only with the intentions to manufacture some aviation components only for the emerging Chinese aviation markets, gearboxes, engines and other items, the intentions to export was ,unless all the products were throughout tested, modified, quality controlled and achieve a price structure convenient for export. While the companies are selling the products in China with great successes, the export will be dependent…. see post 120.


Having acquired ISO 9001:2000 certifications for two of the PSRU, the quality control proses is quite stringent by the PLA aviation authorities, the absence of it, export license would be withdrawn. You are mistaking again, we have not copied anything, we have reversed the engineered some PSRU, is on record, public approaches has been made to the originator of one said boxes, he declined all the offers made to him ,and that settles our argument. I must reiterate the fact that reverse engineered is absolute legal, encouraged, and in the end result we have developed a far better PSRU as the one made by the originator.


There is the lingering question about morality of reverse engineering and as mentioned above , offers were made, rejected, and I guess this settles the morality argument too. Some cynicisms to the subject, the USA army are the masters in reverse engineering’s.


Being a lover of aviation and have an inclination for the gyro guys not only for the sales pitch, I am confident once the PSRU are available to them and a very price structure and availability, extended warranties, service and implementation and, ultimately the brand name, those hard throats will mellow, will touch, feel and…maybe buy it too. Time and the Chinese market is on our side.


Thanks
Albert

sairengine6.jpg
 
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