Psru

jfrankln

Newbie
Better go get fitted for your Mao suit, China has been busy stealing the intellectual property of others for years just like the Japanese did before them. The difference is that with their communist government they can keep labor costs low and have no child labor or environmental restrictions. We happily buy up their cheap copies even as our own factories are closing up and our labor force is lining up for their welfare checks. Then they use the profits to buy our debt until they own us.
 
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1946

Banned
Better go get fitted for your Mao suit, China has been busy stealing the intellectual property of others for years just like the Japanese did before them. The difference is that with their communist government they can keep labor costs low and have no child labor or environmental restrictions. We happily buy up their cheap copies even as our own factories are closing up and our labor force is lining up for their welfare checks. Then they use the profits to buy our debt until they own us.
Wearing my People’s Liberation Army uniform formerly worn by Chairman Mao and reading your post I come to the conclusion ,it was one big paragraph just confirming the need for American public school reform.

Thanks
Albert
 

BoneyM

Newbie
Wearing my Canadian Flag draped over my shoulders, your all welcome here in Canada, no matter if your American or from China both are equal here, now if we could only get our government to make gyro's part of the ultralight class....
 

Heron

Platinum Member
What is that thing about kettles and pots?
No other nation stole goods, projects, intelectual property from others . . . .right?
Heron
 

1946

Banned
What is that thing about kettles and pots?
No other nation stole goods, projects, intelectual property from others . . . .right?
Heron
I think most of the people are misinformed about reverse engineering, the jerrycan was actually a German invention called then Wehrmachtskanister, the US army love it and reversed the engineering on the can and called it Jerry can (Jerry being a disparaging wartime name for Germans) reverse engineering really started after World War –II, When US and Soviet Union used German V-2 Rocket designs to build up their Missile and Space rockets. Nowadays, the US Department of Defense has a handbook with guidelines and procedures about reverse engineering. The 4.2 Rationale is interesting .

4.2 Rationale. One method of controlling the high costs of
replenishment spares is by reverse engineering. Reverse engineering is the
process of duplicating an item, functionally and dimensionally, by physically
examining and measuring existing parts to develop the technical data
(physical and material characteristics) required for competitive procurement.
The reverse engineering process may be performed on specific items which
are currently purchased sole-source. This may be due to limited data rights, in
inadequate TDP, a diminished or non-existent source of supply, or as part of a
Product Improvement Program (PIP). Normally, reverse engineering will not
be cost effective unless the items under consideration are of a high dollar
value or are procured in large quantities. Such items may be reverse
engineered if an economical savings over their acquisition life cycle is
demonstrated, and if other methods of acquiring the necessary technical data
for competitive reprocurement are either more costly or not available.


Thanks
Albert
 

HobbyCAD

Homebuilt Heli Enthusiast
The US has a DoD system called FCT (Foreign Comparitive Testing). It is supposed to be an organization that identifies foreign equipment that adresses shortfalls in their own warfighter capabilities. This organization travels the world, identifies companies and goodies, then invites then in for "comparitive testing". I have been part of this. They send a team of engineers, they go through everything, then promise "massive" orders. Next step, you need to hand over a stack of design data, for "analysis", the so-called comparitive testing. The process takes years, and it's just then that the technology gets copied and incorporated into a US design. If the item is blatantly obvious, they then throw you with another curved ball, in order to be a US Defense supplier, it has to come from a US company, so you are forced to tie up with a US partner, register your technology there, to be able to enter the supply chain. There goes the hold on your product.

So don't blame only China, the US has also been doing it for years...... they just call it something with a "positive spin". "Comparitive Testing" rather than reverse engineering. Now what would "collateral damage", or "unlawfull combatants" be?
 
What countries built the first ... jet engine ... propeller ... helicopter ... rocket ... gear set ... gear case ... wheel ... automobile ... internal combustion engine ... on and on ...

It is a long list of technology that was invented elsewhere than North America.

And a very short list of royalties ever paid to the "first engineers" of these inventions.

The main contribution of North America was the freedom of individual enterprise which enabled the peasant to prosper and improve on any technology he wanted to specialize in.

In recent years the American free-man and free-enterprise model is being disassembled, and it is not being done by external forces, we are doing it to ourselves, not some peasant in China with a gearset and aluminum housing.

We want the $6 toaster from China , not the $60 one from America.

It leaves $54 in our wallet and that is what we want. We spend it on 10 gallons of helicopter gas while the worker in China is happy to have two slices of toast for his efforts.
 

TNVD

Newbie
....We are reversing engineering many other components for the aviation industries, MT Propellers, 3 types of Gyros before mentioned, specialized fuel injection rails for Subaru engines, H Beam conrods for Rotax ,SPG-3/4 PSRU,s , etc, and undeniable two of your products. Being smart is expensive, reverse engineering is a challenge, and yes, the following castings will in magnesium which are in fact stronger that aluminums by using ultrasonic cavitation technique and selectively reinforce areas of concern. Let’s cooperate, would you be interested us sending you a sample of it?

Thanks
Albert
Albert and all "german guys" from great chineese company,
could you please reverse-ingineer this great PSRU http://www.centurion-engines.com/typo3/index.php?id=101 for Europeen and Russian market ? :D

I will be gratefull to you for this :usa2:

Cheers,
Leon
 
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Heron

Platinum Member
Good bit Arnie!
It is a cultural thing.
A lot was done with fauna and flora, look at Italy, famous for pasta, created in China and improved with tomatoes, an american produce.
Tobacco, corn, potato, all american born (get used to america as a whole) they made fortunes abroad.
The airplane has an interesting history, most steps on the airborne adventure, started with people living in Brasil, can´t call them brasilians untill Santos Dumont, they were from european ancestry.
WE aplaud those we like and boo those we don´t, rule bending is common when ego and partisanship is present.
Heron
 

BoneyM

Newbie
If it wasn't for the Americans, the Chinese, Germans, Japanese, or Russians reversing engineering, would be nothing, got to love what they do, we need more of the same.....

Reversing Engineering

Let's reverse engineer the world :)
 

Heron

Platinum Member
Hmmm . . .have to look it up!
Cierva was spanyard but he could be somewhere else. Like Dumont . . .
Heron
Madrid, Spain . . .that is the place.
 
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1946

Banned
Albert and all "german guys" from great chineese company,
could you please reverse-ingineer this great PSRU http://www.centurion-engines.com/typo3/index.php?id=101 for Europeen and Russian market ? :D

I will be gratefull to you for this :usa2:

Cheers,
Leon
That would be a bad reverse engineering decision. They PSRU has huge problems, I think the next generation has to have some sort of a centrifugal clutch, and a flywheel, never the less, all we have to is wait a bit longer (they are broke) and soon would be owned by the Chinese, as it is already Continental SMA’s licensee, is now Chinese-owned. Thielert , already half cooked by the Chinese and Diamont AD-40 already in the Chinese pot. DeltaHawk got equity funding also from China, Sunward Aviation, a Chinese private venture, has plans for a diesel 2-stroke 100HP light airplane. The aero diesel future is hazy in the short term but very solid in the long term, and it will happen outside the USA, namely in China, the writing is on the wall.

Thanks
Albert
 

1946

Banned
What countries built the first ... jet engine ... propeller ... helicopter ... rocket ... gear set ... gear case ... wheel ... automobile ... internal combustion engine ... on and on ...

It is a long list of technology that was invented elsewhere than North America.

And a very short list of royalties ever paid to the "first engineers" of these inventions.

The main contribution of North America was the freedom of individual enterprise which enabled the peasant to prosper and improve on any technology he wanted to specialize in.

In recent years the American free-man and free-enterprise model is being disassembled, and it is not being done by external forces, we are doing it to ourselves, not some peasant in China with a gearset and aluminum housing.

We want the $6 toaster from China , not the $60 one from America.

It leaves $54 in our wallet and that is what we want. We spend it on 10 gallons of helicopter gas while the worker in China is happy to have two slices of toast for his efforts.


Curiously , the Chinese don’t use toasters at all, but since you want a $6 long lasting toaster hate to disappoint ,even it's an European or German brand toaster like a Bosch, Siemens, Krups, Rowenta, Braun, Tefal, Moulinex one, most of them look the same, they are made China". There is good news, Star Mfg in MO all made in the USA, will toast up to 4 slices and even the Texan bagels, the bad news are, it cost $350 and there goes your fuel money. Ha!

Thanks
Albert
 

BoneyM

Newbie
Rotax

Rotax

Yes, there is a problem with this Rotax 503Ul/582/ is already made in China, and some parts for the Rotax 912S is manufactured by the Chongqing Loncin Industrial (Group) Co., Ltd in China, and shipped to Austria as ‘Made in Austria’ According to a spokesman for Rotax at the recently completed Davos conference in China having the engine parts manufactured in China saves about $4,000 in costs. However, the remainder of the engines is assembled in Austria. Remain to be seen if the savings are passed to the consumer..

Albert
If this was true Albert, I have not seen this savings, Rotax is no different from any other company, make as much money as possible at the least amount of money to be made.
So I guess using a EJ22 or EJ25 Subbie, is going to save you a bunch...
 

1946

Banned
If this was true Albert, I have not seen this savings, Rotax is no different from any other company, make as much money as possible at the least amount of money to be made.
So I guess using a EJ22 or EJ25 Subbie, is going to save you a bunch...
We do believe the Subaru is by far a better engine, well-engineered and designed to last, if properly and professionally converted to and aviation engine, I could say would outlast any Rotax engine. Unfortunately, many experimental guys are buying these engines from dismantlers, performing some questionable modifications thus getting all sorts of problems. Lastly, I dint think Rotax will pass any savings to the consumer, why should they..?

Thanks
Albert
 

BoneyM

Newbie
Albert,

The reason many guys are going to the auto dismantlers is pretty simple, you can't go to a Subaru dealer and ask to buy a complete engine, firstly because it would cost more than the car, if you bought it new, so getting the engine from an auto wreckers, is the cheapest way, and usually many of those engines there is nothing wrong with them, oh sure the car might be smashed all the crap, but the engine well they are in great shape, I have 2 such engines I took from the dismantlers, both are running great one in my boat, and the other in a Zenith STOL.
The Subbie engine parts are cheaper to come by that buying a Lycoming or a Rotax engine, and I agree with you, I am 90% sure many of their parts are made in China, and they sell them like they were made right in the USA.

Look up FreeTrade and NAFTA agreements, lots of stuff is made elsewhere, and sold like it was either Canadian made or made in the USA.

If it smells like poo, its probably poo, same poo, just a different pile.
 

Minnesota_Mike

Active Member
Albert....
Is this factory selling these PSRU's outright and openly to the Gyro community...or is one required to perform extensive, expensive additional "upgrades" to the engine..?
Who does the upgrade...?
How does one prove to the satisfaction of your Boss that the engine has been upgraded...?

(PLEASE do share here the list of upgrades your Boss "requires"....and also, the procedure for actually ordering one from the factory).

Last I heard, the demands being made by your Boss as to upgrades make purchasing one of these a non-starter.
Many folks aren't interested in jumping through hoops to satisfy your Boss for the privilege of purchasing a knock-off.

Just asking.....because I know for a fact you lost a "sale" after the buyer read the demands made by your Boss.
(....the unit was intended to be installed on a freshly, professionally rebuilt 2.5L engine- built to "racing" spec's suitable for it's intended use...I.E: "bulletproofed" for sustained high rpm use).

Because in the end... it seems that these units are really intended for Gen Aviation...and were never intended to be openly sold as a solo part into a community like ours.

M-M.
 
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1946

Banned
Albert....
Is this factory selling these PSRU's outright and openly to the Gyro community...or is one required to perform extensive, expensive additional "upgrades" to the engine..?
Who does the upgrade...?
How does one prove to the satisfaction of your Boss that the engine has been upgraded...?

(PLEASE do share here the list of upgrades your Boss "requires"....and also, the procedure for actually ordering one from the factory).

Last I heard, the demands being made by your Boss as to upgrades make purchasing one of these a non-starter.
Many folks aren't interested in jumping through hoops to satisfy your Boss for the privilege of purchasing a knock-off.

Just asking.....because I know for a fact you lost a "sale" after the buyer read the demands made by your Boss.
(....the unit was intended to be installed on a freshly, professionally rebuilt 2.5L engine- built to "racing" spec's suitable for it's intended use...I.E: "bulletproofed" for sustained high rpm use).

Because in the end... it seems that these units are really intended for Gen Aviation...and were never intended to be openly sold as a solo part into a community like ours.

M-M.

We are selling the boxes to approved customers for GA in China, those using Subaru engines must have a certain standard before we would release a ‘ knock-off’ PSRU. Above, I mentioned that a professionally converted engine could outlast a Rotax engine, a professionally rebuilt engine to racing specifications mean exactly the opposite into converting a car engine for aircraft use. What are those racing specs..? A used block, a re-grained crankshaft, re-bored block, re-grinded valves , fancy camshafts, racing bearings ,and whatnot. This would be acceptable for a car engine, our principles are totally opposite, whilst the intended buyer has some clout in the aviation community and an exceptional opportunity to promote our boxes in North America, my boss dint want to take the risk, since the intended engine was not what we expect for and aircraft engine and therefor perhaps we lost the sale. Unfortunately, I had some medial issues and had to spend some time back in Australia and the communication was lost. Subsequently, we had the opportunity to read on other boards he had some difficulties with his set up but eventually managed to get it operational, still as a car engine adapted it to his craft. I can remember all the facts clearly now, but was there the offer to supply all the necessaries parts to bring the engine to aviation standards and not cost to the buyer? Please correct me if wrong.

One has to be extremely careful in China dealing in the aviation industries, this guy here take it very serious and one mistake or engine down could mean back to peel potatoes in the west, therefore all of our engines are not from dismantlers nor purchased in car auctions in Japan. Blocks, cylinder heads and some other items is factory new. The proses of modification is targeted for the use as an aircraft engine since the higher RPM required, special made Mahle pistons and rings, ATE valves and special purpose made bearings from Germany, Chinese H-Beam connecting roads (same ones sold in the west for $900 a set with fancy name) different oil diameter and water pumps, radiators , tuned exhaust, fuel infection, fuel rails and fuel injectors and other item are sourced in China. Nowadays, the most important item with these modern engines is the heart of it, the ECU, I know many use the OM ECU to drive their motor and must say it works from them, but we are talking about aviation engines and all our engines are FADEC controlled and specially mapped for a particular HP.

We had few interested parties to represent our boxes in North America, our ‘knock-off’ PSRU are indeed labor very cheaply made in China but still to the height’s standards engineering, and we are adamant to set our selling price to the consumer not having them sold at inflated amounts thus making it very expensive for the user. Till such time, we find a reasonable dealer, prepared to carry spares, special tools and carry out, if any warranties, have not a chicken shed, but a professional equipped workshop and good mechanical understanding, the boxes will be only sold if the buyer come close (somehow) to our demands. I do apologize if the non-sale caused the buyer hardships, but we have to keep our company polices to what was agreed from the inception with the other partners in the company.

Thanks
Albert
 
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