Psru

1946

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And none of those mentioned are clones of an existing product made without permission, they are being manufactured for the company that designed & owns the rights - you can't see the difference?
Hi Bret

I am sorry, want I meant to say, is that the Chinese just copied it without any permission and seeing they were losing market share, and since was it cheaper doing it in China, the Japanese gave them all they needed plus more. Honda-China sold last year 12 Millions of 50cc Honda bikes, an impossibility to happen in Japan. Can bet them join them and we are all happy.

Thanks
Albert
 

1946

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I would also bet that Honda very closely supervises the quality.

They would be very averse to compromising their name as quality issues and recalls can be hugely damaging to a company that has worked for many years to earn it's reputation for solid dependable products.
Hi Leigh.

Correct, Chinese technicians trained in Japan and only items made for export. But unknown to many, the Honda engines power hundreds of locally made motorcycles. I have seen this bikes carrying 10 water bottles and talking to our delivery guy, his bike never fails. I must say, the 3 wheelers with a clone 50cc Honda moves China.

My proxy is not working now, but will post some really amazing pictures of the transportation methods in China. You guys will never believe it. I am sure Nowigsattached must have seeing it. By the way, it is forbidden to own a bike more that a 50cc in the province of Shandong and the curiosity is that they produce bigger bikes up to 150cc but no one enforces the prohibition.

Thanks
Albert
 

1946

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I think from reading your posts that you have done whatever you could to make this situation a little more palatable. You saying in the us would be translated to "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
The ball is in Neils court and it is his move. I know how it feels to have a bigger company capitalize off your hard work and snag the market. But business is competition.
Hope it all works out for you guys.
I sometimes wish the U.S. would instill HUGE friggin trade tariffs on anything not U.S. made and force us into an age of nationalism, like you guys in China. It may be the only way that we will ever begin to solve some of our domestic financial problems.
Although I'm not against the idea of enslaving the Brazilians to produce our export products like Heron suggests!:)
Ben S
Ben

Too late, we are greedy souls, and profits before anything. The Chinese business man is getting the same way, and already they are taking business to Vietnam. Protectionisms would work for you guys, but you have to convince your own guys to come back and produce for lower profits. Let’s hope for the best.

Thanks
Albert
 

CopterBob

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There's no doubt that China's quality improves with every passing year, as they should since they probably have the newest, most up-to-date manufacturing facilities in the world. Comparing the stuff on Harbor Freight's shelves today versus 5 years ago shows that.

But, this whole "reverse engineering" thing touched a nerve here. I work for a company that manufactures state-of-the-art equipment for the aluminum industry. Quite expensive, but recognized as being worth it. Over the last 6-7 years Chinese companies have made extensive purchases of our various lines of patented equipment, and nearly every one of them has been "reverse engineered," which is just another word for ripping off dozens of years of our tedious, intensive, innovative and thus VERY expensive R&D work. This is being done with full knowledge of the patents, made evident by the copiers often brazenly engraving "Copy of XXX equipment" on the actual finished product. Patent fights are almost pointless when their government unofficially condones what's happening. Using an existing product as inspiration is one thing, but rationalize it all you want, what we're talking about here is theft, plain and simple.
 

BobK

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Get use to it. I've been out of the electronics business since right after 9/11 They won't have to worry about terrorism from the outside, they have it at the highest levels of their own government. Greedy people will operate at the edge of any given quality standards to make the buck you have in your pocket. Most don't care how it gets out of your pocket as long as it goes to them & they will undercut any price to make sure there is little competition. The government helps them with their own form of protectionism, just ask Kodak. They have force under employment on more people than computer automation has ended the need for craftmanship. Anything can be reverse engineered, as an electronics test engineer, I was asked to do it all the time since most people don't like to share technology they have any investment (time or money) in.
 

Heron

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It is a nigthmare when the "owner" of one idea keeps changing mind and stop you progress, causing losses and buning money.
When things are more equal, moves are made in unisson and all are happy with results.
You create a basic product, put it out in the market, learn from its lifetime, modify it, creat sub kits to improve the actual model and more profit for you.
many cars have a different name but inside are the same, new headlights, grill, bumpers and costs a little more.
So it is time for Neil H get his part in this or stay aside watching the history unfold.
I will need engines too, what is the word in this matter?
Heron
 

Heron

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The indispensable
At some point, someone will be indispensable, or you are not going to have progress.
You see . . .you got the idea from someone else, picked and choosed the best idea to move from it.
I do owe a lot to Larry Neal, he got me pretty close to my vision of a gyroplane and if one day my tree bears fruit, he will have some.
Also this Forum and Norms own are the main cause for gyro development, it should get some also.
You make sales here, pay a comission . . .
and PRA . . .and whatever is used as leverage to you advancement.
thanks
Heron
 

1946

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The indispensable
At some point, someone will be indispensable, or you are not going to have progress.
You see . . .you got the idea from someone else, picked and choosed the best idea to move from it.
I do owe a lot to Larry Neal, he got me pretty close to my vision of a gyroplane and if one day my tree bears fruit, he will have some.
Also this Forum and Norms own are the main cause for gyro development, it should get some also.
You make sales here, pay a comission . . .
and PRA . . .and whatever is used as leverage to you advancement.
thanks
Heron
Hello Heron

Not sure If I understand, but running a business on the indispensability of its employers would be a very risky business to have. As a professional salesman of many years, I found many times I wasn’t indispensable, business goes slack, got fired. I think there is a misconception here; the boxes will be only sold through a shortly appointed distributor in the US, with fixed amounts, so that the savings are passed to the consumer. I hope you can translate your visions into reality; maybe the tree needs more water?

Thanks
Albert
 

Heron

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$ure . . .water i$ alway$ good! :D
But at one point, some info is indispensable for the next move, or the next employee . . .didn't you ever staled a dismissal until you got sure about the replacement?
So, at that moment whatever it was, was indispensable . . .get it now?
Bring more choices on and let the market sort them out . . . right?
Heron
 

1946

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$ure . . .water i$ alway$ good! :D
But at one point, some info is indispensable for the next move, or the next employee . . .didn't you ever staled a dismissal until you got sure about the replacement?
So, at that moment whatever it was, was indispensable . . .get it now?
Bring more choices on and let the market sort them out . . . right?
Heron
Heron

Don’t they say a good salesman’s should take weather lessons? Yes, of course in that respect a salesman always knows how to read the business barometer, never walks without an umbrella, you know, rainy days can take long to clear. The consumer makes choices; we just listen to them very carefully, and deliver what they want, at the way we want to sell it, I think this is called marketing.

Thanks
Albert
 

Heron

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Boy are you right?
I used to think I was stainless and bullet proof, the rain washed me down to the ditch where I still struggle to get out.
Investors ask me about the competition down here and I say: None!
For gyros there is no one factory in the entire South America, so . . .nothing to worry about.
With american and european prices plus local import taxes, it is impossible to have a gyro down here.
Imagine a Magni costing 80+shiping+35% = 120.000 Euros = 360.000 reais . . . unthinkable for a toy. Add no maintenace to that and you get the picture.
It has to be made here, assembled near the use site, fligh school while made, the assembler will be the maintenance crew. without that chain of command there will be no deals here, it is common to wait two years for a repair or a new machine.
My friends here are on the third year, 30 g´s invested and not a lap around the patch yet. Traveling 600 km for a lesson and sometimes double that round trip.
On the FW side we are doing great, lovely ships, not lots of power yet, the regulars VW converted, Fiat Fire, Hondas and Rotaxes.
Bring them powerhouses on!
Heron
 

1946

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Boy are you right?
I used to think I was stainless and bullet proof, the rain washed me down to the ditch where I still struggle to get out.
Investors ask me about the competition down here and I say: None!
For gyros there is no one factory in the entire South America, so . . .nothing to worry about.
With american and european prices plus local import taxes, it is impossible to have a gyro down here.
Imagine a Magni costing 80+shiping+35% = 120.000 Euros = 360.000 reais . . . unthinkable for a toy. Add no maintenace to that and you get the picture.
It has to be made here, assembled near the use site, fligh school while made, the assembler will be the maintenance crew. without that chain of command there will be no deals here, it is common to wait two years for a repair or a new machine.
My friends here are on the third year, 30 g´s invested and not a lap around the patch yet. Traveling 600 km for a lesson and sometimes double that round trip.
On the FW side we are doing great, lovely ships, not lots of power yet, the regulars VW converted, Fiat Fire, Hondas and Rotaxes.
Bring them powerhouses on!
Heron
Hi Heron

Bad idea to have investors, there are not interested in the products, they just want a returns, huge returns, and sometime forcing to a cheapen the product. We are looking to expand, Brasil will become in a few years a huge force to reckon with, and like in China, the middle class will be driving M.Benz leaving the Fiats for the house maid. Looking seriously at the Turbo Butterfly, that could be done, very cheaply, as is nothing to it, in China or Brasil. We will have in foreseeable future very competitive reversed engineering Xenon’s (XE1) with none of their shortcomings, and two other European gyros. Maybe I should convince my boss to pay me a trip to Brasil. Virgin Gyro Markets..?

Thanks
Albert
 

Heron

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Albert
The Turbo Golden was an experiment, I think Larry has shelfed (or v?) the plans.
The Golden is almost the same, but with less power and weight.
I still have a piece of paper that allows me to build them in South America, but not enough green paper for the task.
With the new power plants it will be easier to build a good two seater.
thanks
Heron
 

1946

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Albert
The Turbo Golden was an experiment, I think Larry has shelfed (or v?) the plans.
The Golden is almost the same, but with less power and weight.
I still have a piece of paper that allows me to build them in South America, but not enough green paper for the task.
With the new power plants it will be easier to build a good two seater.
thanks
Heron
Heron

If it is only a shortcoming of the green paper that is no problem, the red paper has more weight and strength, will last for a long fiesta in your neck of the woods. Perhaps we should take this to emails.

Thanks
Albert
 

Mike G

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1946
I'm with Ernie B (post 24) when are you going to reverse engineer a 912/914, Rotax really needs the competition.
Mike G
 

1946

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1946
I'm with Ernie B (post 24) when are you going to reverse engineer a 912/914, Rotax really needs the competition.
Mike G
C’mon guys, Rotax has a very small share with the experimental guys, except with the US military. Reverse engineering boxes is easier and hugely sellable and very profitable ,to a point we had to drop the sand casting and go die casting. I believe there is a bigger market share with professionally converted automotive engines at a fraction of the cost of a Rotax. You guys could force the Rotax to a realistic price, buy not buying it.

Thanks
Albert
 

Resasi

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Yes, there is a problem with this Rotax 503Ul/582/ is already made in China
C’mon guys, Rotax has a very small share with the experimental guys, except with the US military. Reverse engineering boxes is easier and hugely sellable and very profitable ,to a point we had to drop the sand casting and go die casting. I believe there is a bigger market share with professionally converted automotive engines at a fraction of the cost of a Rotax. You guys could force the Rotax to a realistic price, buy not buying it.
I see a dichotomy here between these two statements.

Perhaps I am being simple here but copying products designed and made in companies other than China seems to be easy. Copying products already being made in China is hard.

Why?
 

1946

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I see a dichotomy here between these two statements.

Perhaps I am being simple here but copying products designed and made in companies other than China seems to be easy. Copying products already being made in China is hard.

Why?
There is a huge difference between copying and reverse engineering’s, so let’s be clear on that. I guess you should be well aware by now but, if not then you are badly misinformed that in fact reverse engineering is not illegal at all, anywhere in the world. China offers exceptional experienced tool makers at ¼ of the rates sought in the west for the products to be of reversed engineering, so logically and financially is done in China, and let me expand the answer.

An experienced tool maker in the USA would most probably make 60.000 a year, if not more, China offers very experienced tool makers for $10.000 a year. Now, to your second question, reversing the engineering of something manufactured in China either OM or already reversed would not make any business scene either ; we can buy the items here in China for a ¼ you guys would be paying in the west.

Lastly ,companies that reverse engineering of products available on the international market, the copying itself ,would be just making the same or even worse product , so we do reverse the engineering and make a far better product than the original thus benefiting the end user. I hope, this will lay to rest your confusion or misinformation what’s legal , the meaning of copying and reversed engineering.

Thanks
Albert
 

Mike G

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1946
I have no statistics but here in Europe and in many parts of the world the 912/914 simply has no competition because it's established itself as a very tough reliable engine.
Outside the US and perhaps now China, few people really want the hassle and time it takes to build your own plane or gyro and the companies supplying kits or already built plane/gyros all seem to choose Rotax.
This has given Rotax a monopoly situation that results in a engine that's probably worth about 10,000 euros being sold for 25,000 and Rotax have no incentive what so ever to make any significant improvements because they just can't make them fast enough. I'm surprised to hear that PRSUs for the experimental market has more potential for you that a 912/914 competitor especially if you add a bit of technology like fuel injection.
Mike G
 

1946

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1946
I have no statistics but here in Europe and in many parts of the world the 912/914 simply has no competition because it's established itself as a very tough reliable engine.
Outside the US and perhaps now China, few people really want the hassle and time it takes to build your own plane or gyro and the companies supplying kits or already built plane/gyros all seem to choose Rotax.
This has given Rotax a monopoly situation that results in a engine that's probably worth about 10,000 euros being sold for 25,000 and Rotax have no incentive what so ever to make any significant improvements because they just can't make them fast enough. I'm surprised to hear that PRSUs for the experimental market has more potential for you that a 912/914 competitor especially if you add a bit of technology like fuel injection.
Mike G

It might be a good engine but it priced itself out (912/914) for those experimental guys and they stop by 115 HP fully charged. Whilst Rotax has a fair share in the US experimental market with the smaller engines I can’t say it dominates the market, except perhaps in Europe whereby that are more conservative and buy plug and play factory made gyros.

After 115 HP there is wide selection of engines for the heavier aircrafts/gyros and there is a bigger market for PSRU while this not dominated by the experimental guys in our case. I believe the 914UL/F is already fully pumped up and adding more to it would make it only more complicated and expensive.

Thanks
Albert
 
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