Psru

Neil Hintz

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Feb 22, 2004
Messages
434
Heron, The Autoflight gearbox is superior to other designs as well as using first class materials, the input shaft design is novel. It was patentable when I first designed this system but didn't because it would add cost and this is a small niche market, hell who would bother copying it. There is no loose joint from the crank to the output shaft to move or fret only gear clearance. The rubber drive takes care of the "normal" engine pulses. There would be over 400 units out " doing the business " over five years ( Autoflight Ltd ). So it would seem it is worth copying, I would have at least thought these people would have contacted me to discuss a license deal. As you will see from another post here ( where the china copiers are copying the Zenon ) they actively hid from Autoflight hoping to get to the market before I noticed. We don't have snakes in NZ but china does. Interesting enough there are rules about selling direct copies in Australia and in NZ, patented or not. I am using Trade and Enterprise to investigate having these copies stopped from sale in these countries. In the future I will now have to look into protecting my intellectual property.
 

1946

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Heron, The Autoflight gearbox is superior to other designs as well as using first class materials, the input shaft design is novel. It was patentable when I first designed this system but didn't because it would add cost and this is a small niche market, hell who would bother copying it. There is no loose joint from the crank to the output shaft to move or fret only gear clearance. The rubber drive takes care of the "normal" engine pulses. There would be over 400 units out " doing the business " over five years ( Autoflight Ltd ). So it would seem it is worth copying, I would have at least thought these people would have contacted me to discuss a license deal. As you will see from another post here ( where the china copiers are copying the Zenon ) they actively hid from Autoflight hoping to get to the market before I noticed. We don't have snakes in NZ but china does. Interesting enough there are rules about selling direct copies in Australia and in NZ, patented or not. I am using Trade and Enterprise to investigate having these copies stopped from sale in these countries. In the future I will now have to look into protecting my intellectual property.

The SCEO (BMW clone) was unveiled in 2005 and is powered by a range of Mitsubishi engines. Sure, the SCEO is a reversed engineering inspired by a previous generation BMW X5 but it’s a lot of car for a little money in China, and also, quite possibly the most important part, SCEO drivers manage to drive their SUV’s much better than their X5 driving equivalents. This is good news for consumers, bringing the prospect of half-price vehicles. BWM lost the court case, both in patent and intellectual property in Europe and joined the Chinese. Currently the SCEO is sold thought-out Europe, Russia, and all other Asian countries. Despite German technology, VW in Brasil made some incredible innovations on a Ty3 VW , later all adopted by the German manufacturer.

But let’s put things in perspective, claiming the use of superior material without disclosing the nature of your material is a technical aberration, we have disclosed the material, hardness and design rules were used in the gears and castings . Gears are gears, and therefore not patentable nor do they have any intellectual right attached to it. The original boxes (3 of them) were 3D in the States and there was a measure disparity at the base of the box in relation to its cover, we have corrected this problem making it totally uniform. We have increased the internal size of the final output shaft and slightly increased the size of the main gear. Initially we tested the box using equidistant pulses over one shaft revolution and it showed a fair amount of vibrations, the manufacturer not being happy with the results tested the box with propeller with the Runge-Kutta method, using a pressure oil filled flywheel to the box and was happy to inform 95% of the torsional vibrations were rectified. We are not using the SKF KMFE8 main shaft bearing retainer, as the original is modified and not in the specifications by SKF. Destructively tested The AeroFlight 33, showed some hair line cracks at the upper casing and sharing of the pins at the main shaft locating the flexible coupling. The all new AeroFlight 44Tand soon to be released, has all gears made in Titanium and, high-pressured injected castings and rated up to 400HP!

Does reverse engineering infringe an owner’s copyright? The answer is no. Generally, the Copyright Act prohibits copying someone else’s intellectual property, including software code. However, consider the legislative purpose of the Copyright Act—the act was designed to encourage the free flow of ideas. To protect your business from claims of copyright infringement, you will need to demonstrate that you actually engineered the property. The NZTE has no authority to stop sales of any reversed engineering items.

The final stage of the reverse engineering process is the introduction of a new product into the marketplace. These new products are often innovations of the original product with competitive designs, features, or capabilities. These products may also be adaptations of the original product for use with other integrated systems. Copyright does not cover ideas, processes, procedures, systems, or methods of operation nor does prevent the sales of it in any part of the world.

Lastly, your published email at the board, shows clearly it was never concealed to you the boxes were reversed engineered, subsequent emails to you with an open invitation to join as equal using our vastly superior engineering capabilities, manufacturing processes and investments and with your excellent mechanical expertise in this venture and for the benefit not only for us, but capable to deliver to the consumer excellent products with an unique and powerful brand* name well established around the world at a cheaper rate. Please consider all this before the snakes start biting.

Thanks
Albert

Adendum:
Addressed to Heron: There is no loose joint from the crank to the output shaft to move or fret only gear clearance.
This correct, with all the copious amount of 3M (thread lockers for securing nuts and bolt) and the looking nut SKF KMFE8, that the shaft as mentioned in the previous post could have ever moved, except for a shaft failure itself or at some other unspecified reasons or vibrations.
 
Last edited:

Neil Hintz

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2004
Messages
434
Albert, you know and we know your gearbox is a copy. Doesn't matter how much you fluff it up. I have no problem with china producing aviation gearboxes, just don't copy me! If you guys are so smart, design your own. Good luck with the Titanium gears! You might try magnesium cases too.
 

1946

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Albert, you know and we know your gearbox is a copy. Doesn't matter how much you fluff it up. I have no problem with china producing aviation gearboxes, just don't copy me! If you guys are so smart, design your own. Good luck with the Titanium gears! You might try magnesium cases too.
Neil

Neil

I wrote to you the company in China is not interested in all your products, some are of the engineering point of view interesting but unfortunately not commercial viable. We are reversing engineering many other components for the aviation industries, MT Propellers, 3 types of Gyros before mentioned, specialized fuel injection rails for Subaru engines, H Beam conrods for Rotax ,SPG-3/4 PSRU,s , etc, and undeniable two of your products. Being smart is expensive, reverse engineering is a challenge, and yes, the following castings will in magnesium which are in fact stronger that aluminums by using ultrasonic cavitation technique and selectively reinforce areas of concern. Let’s cooperate, would you be interested us sending you a sample of it?

Thanks
Albert
 

NoWingsAttached

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Can I interject something that may open some eyes a bit concerning the perceptions we hold, the virtues we espouse, and the ACTIONS we really live by....

How many of you shop Walmart and Sam's Club? Will you stop shopping there if You know that they destroyed a business of mine by reselling a machine that was made in violation on a patent pending? They are outright pirates, and selling the products of pirates.

I have personally suffered destruction brought on my them. A business was destroyed by them. WIll you stop spending your money there in support of MY cause? BUll$#!t. You won't and I won't expect you to. So, all you holy rollin people out there that say reverse engineering and all this hooey is so outrageous etc. look at yourselves. You buy whatever is cheapest and serves your purpose. when it comes right down to YOUR money savings, and YOUR best interests, i SERIOUSLY doubt ANY of you will stop buying crap at that rip-off artist Sam.

ANyway...I politely excuse myself from this important conversation now. If China can sell this thing for about 1/2 what I can buy it for elsewhere, than I will probably buy it from....Walmart????

that's all ah got ta say about thayat. (gump)
 
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scottessex

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Nope Gregg I do not shop at Wal-Mart, and I WILL look to buy something NOT made in China if I can help it, There have been too many times I have been burned by cheap pieces of crap. You are right though the American people have done it too them selves by wanting cheap crap, so now that is exactly what we have available.

Can you define QUALITY? Quality is very difficult to describe, but it is very evident when it is not there!


Y'all remember this quote: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin ...
 

1946

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Nope Gregg I do not shop at Wal-Mart, and I WILL look to buy something NOT made in China if I can help it, There have been too many times I have been burned by cheap pieces of crap. You are right though the American people have done it too them selves by wanting cheap crap, so now that is exactly what we have available.

Can you define QUALITY? Quality is very difficult to describe, but it is very evident when it is not there!


Y'all remember this quote: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten” – Benjamin Franklin ...


Can you define QUALITY? Quality is very difficult to describe, but it is very evident when it is not there!

I am not going to rubbish Chinese factories; they are certainly not the only ones to blame. A good proportion of quality issues in China pop’s up because the importer doesn’t take his responsibility. Anyway, I don’t think there is an easy answer, on the one hand, most sourcing professionals say that yes, there is improvement over time. I think what they mean is that the number of “good” factories to choose from in China is increasing, overall they are probably right.

On the other hand, from my observations, product quality does not tend to go up in certain industries in China. Pressure on price is intensifying, so importers deal more and more directly with manufacturers, it means there is no trading company to have a look at product quality, and sometimes this function is not replaced by third-party inspections. Vietnam, is already under cutting cost and the dreaded India is not far off. Most rejections are based on workmanship and can’t been solved by procedures on distance only but need a practical approach and explanation.

Chinese living in Beijing, Shanghai and some mayor cities are on USD 2.500 – 3.000 per/anum, whilst the other 750 Millions of Chinese live on USD500 per a/anum, now what can one produce with that kind of wages in the western world. Nothing!

Thanks
Albert
 

BEN S

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1946 et al...

1946 et al...

There is a simple fix to this whole solution. If you are saving money making the R.E. PSRU's that you freely admit to using Neils design. You have saved a TON of money on development costs already. You want to save face (important in Asian cultures) and sell to a relatively small customer base as well. Why don't you allot some of the monies that you are making/saved to the creator, WITHOUT a legal court ordering you to do so? Why not ask Neil how much of a royalty he would reasonably expect and work from there. His answer might not be as high as you think, since he already knows you are going to sell them with or without his consent and here is a possibility to realize SOME profit from the "collaboration".
Then you would have the backing of the small community who is your customers as well.
This thread can NOT be a good idea as far as marketing your product goes, but can only hurt your sales.
Neil, if they offer you any amount it would be more than you stand to make now anyway, no matter how you might feel about it personally, consider it.
Ben S
 

StanFoster

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Ben- I dont have a dog in this race...but am following in nontheless. You proposal seems to me to be a win win for both sides.



Stan
 

BEN S

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Stan..

Stan..

It's funny, if you ask anyone who has ever known me from years ago if the word reason/tact/diplomacy could be mentioned in the same sentence with my name they would convulse so hard soda would come out their nose! But I guess working retail for 5 years now has gotten me to a point where I can "see" the sale, and in this case the "sell" isn't going to go as well as it could while there is a conflict.
Ben S...doing my part for the advancement of gyroplanes through international diplomacy! (has a nice ring to it doesn't it?)
 

Heron

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Neil should set his price and get part of the action.If he was contacted and rejected it is his problem.
I saw that happen before and both parties lost for non cooperation. I hope it will be recovered.
If you know your stuff is better and can probably save llives you should join the bigger wagon and get some for you . . .or just watch from the sidelines.
Inventors seldom get the better piece of the cake . . .
China does what America did not to long ago, flood the market, mess with exchange, enslave people (but in this case their own)
Coming from a country that did not manufactured anything, all is foreigner and welcome.
Ford and Chevy are doing better here than at home and so are other companies, many moved HQ down here. You know, more party going on! :D
They say money is made round because it needs to move . . .
Heron
 

1946

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There is a simple fix to this whole solution. If you are saving money making the R.E. PSRU's that you freely admit to using Neils design. You have saved a TON of money on development costs already. You want to save face (important in Asian cultures) and sell to a relatively small customer base as well. Why don't you allot some of the monies that you are making/saved to the creator, WITHOUT a legal court ordering you to do so? Why not ask Neil how much of a royalty he would reasonably expect and work from there. His answer might not be as high as you think, since he already knows you are going to sell them with or without his consent and here is a possibility to realize SOME profit from the "collaboration".
Then you would have the backing of the small community who is your customers as well.
This thread can NOT be a good idea as far as marketing your product goes, but can only hurt your sales.
Neil, if they offer you any amount it would be more than you stand to make now anyway, no matter how you might feel about it personally, consider it.
Ben S


Hello Ben

In principle totally agree with you, whatever we saved a ton of many by reversing the engineering is debatable. The Chinese criteria for the aircraft industries and to join their bandwagon, all items must be manufactured locally, with this in mind, we went into the venture reverse the engineering on the boxes and knowing too, the market for the boxes is very limited for export. The company is very well aware of the negativity this would attract in the west, but we have done our home work and, appears there is some bearable resistance and in the long run the consumer will have the last word, and already has spoken positively.

As I mentioned before on this board, we have delivered a fair amount of the PSRU to the local manufactures, and hundreds more to come and paying some kind of royalties would be an admission to guilt of which we are not guilty and of no wrong doing. I spoke to management, with their approval , being a salesman still like to retain within myself some sort of business decorum, call it guilt or morality, I have repeatedly offered to the NZ manufactures, not royalties, but rather joining as an equal in this venture, as it is said in Chinese, the fruit is there for you to pick it up, but I can make to eat it. I am not going the beg anyone to eat of our tree. As in saving face it only applies dealing with Chinese, we done this already.

Thanks
Albert
 

scottessex

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The biggest problem I think that people have is that China has proved it can copy anything, just as the Japanese did back in the 1960's. I have never seen a Chinese scooter that was a copy of a Honda, even have close to the quality the honda had.
Of course a few years ago Korea was importing cheap junk, the quality has improved, but the prices have gone up also.
When China can prove it has good quality products, you will no longer be able to get them cheap.

A Honda Accord used to be cheap once.
 

1946

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Neil should set his price and get part of the action.If he was contacted and rejected it is his problem.
I saw that happen before and both parties lost for non cooperation. I hope it will be recovered.
If you know your stuff is better and can probably save llives you should join the bigger wagon and get some for you . . .or just watch from the sidelines.
Inventors seldom get the better piece of the cake . . .
China does what America did not to long ago, flood the market, mess with exchange, enslave people (but in this case their own)
Coming from a country that did not manufactured anything, all is foreigner and welcome.
Ford and Chevy are doing better here than at home and so are other companies, many moved HQ down here. You know, more party going on! :D
They say money is made round because it needs to move . . .
Heron
Hello Heron

Nobody is indispensable, we are losing nothing. Setting a price would be not fair to the (if) we talk about cooperation/partnership; one must cut the cake at equal portions. The lingering questions are, would you forgive as seen by some in the west a cheating partner? Is there a really –really morality, equality, etc … in business and if so , why is everyone arguing if it is all business related? Being an old fashioned salesman, at the old boys Club in HK, sometimes I watch western and Chinese business man literary tearing apart gentleman agreements for the sake of profits.

Thanks
Albert
 

1946

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The biggest problem I think that people have is that China has proved it can copy anything, just as the Japanese did back in the 1960's. I have never seen a Chinese scooter that was a copy of a Honda, even have close to the quality the honda had.
Of course a few years ago Korea was importing cheap junk, the quality has improved, but the prices have gone up also.
When China can prove it has good quality products, you will no longer be able to get them cheap.

A Honda Accord used to be cheap once.
Hello Scott

Al Honda motorcycle engines, frames and wheels, ECU’s are made in China, sold in the west and labeled Made in Japan, Honda’s chassis parts are stamped in China, Honda car engines are made in China too and Toyota makes some of his models now in China. I have brought at the street markets in China man’s underwear Made in Australia.

Do you know, that 60% of US items are manufactured in China? While back and widely reported by your media, this US guy made some invention, yes an invention, but short of funds approached the US government, after a while he gave up as he dint get any feedback, went to China, guess what? He is a wealthy man today. I say, someone is very shortsighted.

Thanks
Albert
 

Gyro_Kai

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Interesting discussion. 1946, how much money do you make, compared to the above mentioned Chinese wages. I assume you will try to stay below the 3000USD in order not to upset your new partners?
You may have offered a joint venture to Neil, but many companies in China did that and then squeezed the foreigner out, after they got what they wanted. So why and under what terms should Neil do that?

So far no Chinese copy is really taking a stand in Europe.
Brilliance cars had to be taken off the road because the copy was so poor. The above mentioned lawsuit against the BMW is of course turned down in China due the government. Here, in Europe, they will not sell.

Many companies are reducing their activities in China because of the losses and, because educated people are asking for higher wages. So I think, this business model of stealing secrets from foreigners will eventually fail.

It would be great, if more Chinese companies would discover their own ability and have genuine ideas (there are good examples).

Kai
 

BEN S

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Albert...

Albert...

I think from reading your posts that you have done whatever you could to make this situation a little more palatable. You saying in the us would be translated to "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
The ball is in Neils court and it is his move. I know how it feels to have a bigger company capitalize off your hard work and snag the market. But business is competition.
Hope it all works out for you guys.
I sometimes wish the U.S. would instill HUGE friggin trade tariffs on anything not U.S. made and force us into an age of nationalism, like you guys in China. It may be the only way that we will ever begin to solve some of our domestic financial problems.
Although I'm not against the idea of enslaving the Brazilians to produce our export products like Heron suggests!:)
Ben S
 

brett s

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Al Honda motorcycle engines, frames and wheels, ECU’s are made in China, sold in the west and labeled Made in Japan, Honda’s chassis parts are stamped in China, Honda car engines are made in China too and Toyota makes some of his models now in China. I have brought at the street markets in China man’s underwear Made in Australia.
And none of those mentioned are clones of an existing product made without permission, they are being manufactured for the company that designed & owns the rights - you can't see the difference?
 

Resasi

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I would also bet that Honda very closely supervises the quality.

They would be very averse to compromising their name as quality issues and recalls can be hugely damaging to a company that has worked for many years to earn it's reputation for solid dependable products.
 

1946

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Interesting discussion. 1946, how much money do you make, compared to the above mentioned Chinese wages. I assume you will try to stay below the 3000USD in order not to upset your new partners?
You may have offered a joint venture to Neil, but many companies in China did that and then squeezed the foreigner out, after they got what they wanted. So why and under what terms should Neil do that?

So far no Chinese copy is really taking a stand in Europe.
Brilliance cars had to be taken off the road because the copy was so poor. The above mentioned lawsuit against the BMW is of course turned down in China due the government. Here, in Europe, they will not sell.

Many companies are reducing their activities in China because of the losses and, because educated people are asking for higher wages. So I think, this business model of stealing secrets from foreigners will eventually fail.

It would be great, if more Chinese companies would discover their own ability and have genuine ideas (there are good examples).

Kai

Hello Kay

The BMW case was actually won in Italy, not in China. Despite the entire shortcoming with Chinese made cars they still managed to outsell the biggest car manufactures in the world. It is true to say many companies are leaving China, buy it would be fair to say too, if a company set up business in China under the ambit of mutual cooperation, the company is expected to shear the technology and not only use cheap labour to make a bigger profit for the shareholders while exporting all the goods, that was the case with BSAF and many others.

Chinese want to learn, Bombardier, Boeing, Aerobus and VW, AUDI, MB to mention some companies, are making good business in China by shearing all the technology to the Chinese folks. Siemens, AEG, Bosch are getting there. Cooperation still means today sharing and if not willing, the soft squeeze comes into effect. We are sharing it all and getting rewarded handsomely and one day, we too will become obsolete, we know that. In Neil’s case, as long the party is on, we are all dancing, every business man should know that and never put all the eggs in one basket. So why castigate China and our company for what Japan did way back and today widely accepted. Let’s be fair.

Years ago Chinese were not so educated and worked for pittances, now they have woken up, and if there are good at it, they should get paid accordingly, unfortunately western companies don’t see it that way and we have a some brain drain to the west of some really brilliant guys. Chine like Japan, will not cheap for long. I believe you guys are not doing to bad and according to Angela last time she was in China thanking the Chinese helping your economy to grow.

In China we are not permitted by the company to drive ourselves , Chinese driver just can’t drive, I get a full time diver with a company BMW, sea site fully furnished western style apartment , cleaning lady and all meals and entertainment (have GF) expenses paid. Can’t complain and wish I could be a partner.

Thanks
Albert
 
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