PRA's group insurance moving forward saving us money!! Update 1st offer!!

All_In

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Moving forward on the 2/3rd saving on insurance! Read the email below for the first underwriter's offer out of 6.
I need all manufactures and CFI's to create a grassroots email, text, or phone call campaign asking them to sign up to build a list of at least 300 pilots. Go here to sign up it FREE! https://pra.org/insGroup.aspx
The goods new a member of ARSA has sent it to their board and we are trying to find an underwriter in both countries that could build a large enough group. I dream is for PRA to offer it to the world.
6 underwriters have contacted me just reading the marketing plan. I've only had one conference call with the first one and they cannot offer us a product we designed this year but maybe next with a one year trial of a heavily discounted hull and liability insurance to start.
Here is the email reply to the first meeting and the first offer from Hallmark. It's not a done deal only working on it for you all.
===Start=====
Good morning all,
It was great speaking with everyone last Thursday. John, I think we are safe in saying that we all share your passion for aviation and making the world a better place. I am completely on board in trying to help improve the insurance market for Gyrocopters. I think together we can make it a safer hobby.
To recap;
1. We will need spelled out processes and procedures for annuals and pilot training/certification, in the form of adopted by-laws or letters of amendment.
2. Jon from Hallmark stated that he would send over the requirements from a prior association discount program to use as a guideline.
3. Once In agreement, we will start with a liability insurance association discount.
a. Vermont and Alaska no go
b. Nebraska and Mississippi no discount possible due to insurance company state filings.
c. John, as I am sure you are aware, the volume is what matters here. The volume of policyholders can potentially open more doors as we evolve.
4. As we develop this we can look into automation.
a. simple online form, link on your website, backlinked to ours, etc. . .
b. Make it very customer friendly and easy for new members
c. Video marketing?
5. Further down the road, we will look at a blanket hull insurance over the rider.
6. I am positive we can also look into Hanger Keepers coverage and club liability
a. Either franchised or master policy
I am excited. I think there is a real opportunity for improvement here! I will wait to hear from both you and Jon! In the meantime, if you need anything on my end feel free to reach out and contact me!
 

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All_In

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Update good news. The 1st of 5 insurance companies have offered a 30% discount. With PRA insurance pool covering 1/2 the hull value that would be a 50% discount in total by not paying premiums on 1/2 the value of the experminental rotorcraft. Not bad for the first offer.

Next, PRA needs CFI's help to create the check-out ride procedures and negotiate them with Hallmark and the other 5 companies one at a time.

Also working with ASRA to develop the same program for them hopefully together as a group from both countries or by themselves.

Here are the details of where PRA is at in the negotiations = straight from Hallmark to me.

---START --
I'm sorry to advise you John but I'm currently in the process of stepping down as head of aviation for Hallmark and they will be looking for my replacement. With this being said, I will do everything I can to help get this program started but it will be up to the future head of Hallmark Aviation on whether they choose to implement this program. Here is a summary of the program highlights we discussed:

  1. The PRA must establish a formal, recurrent ground & flight training program. I would like to leave it up to the PRA to establish what, exactly, the program consists of, but allow Hallmark to review and accept/reject this program before we proceed. This program needs to be geared toward enhancing pilot proficiency and reducing losses. Hallmark recommends that training consists of not less than 3-4 hours of ground school and 3-4 hours of flight instruction per year. If the PRA believes this is too much, I’m willing to hear their proposal. If they think more training is best, Hallmark will support that.
  2. Annual recurrent training must be given by a CFI approved by the PRA. We would like PRA to give us an outline of their requirements for CFI approval. We would also like the PRA to maintain a list of those approved CFIs. Hallmark would like to be given a list of approved PRA instructors and if we agree to go forward with the discounts, we will need the CFI list updated periodically (If the list was available on a website that would be even better).
  3. The PRA must establish a way to provide a PRA approved aircraft inspection that can be accomplished annually (if this is not practical, we can consider a bi-annual inspection). The goal of this inspection should be to determine that the aircraft meets PRA safety standards and recommendations.
  4. The PRA must establish a method of certifying that the training and inspections have been completed. The best option is to provide a physical certificate (one for training, one for inspection) that the aircraft owner can submit to Hallmark through their insurance agent. Alternatively, the PRA may submit this directly to the insurance agent. If the PRA has a better solution, Hallmark will consider it.
We have seen this type of program dramatically reduce losses for other aircraft and I believe that doing this will enable Hallmark to offer reduced premiums for those PRA members that complete the program annually.

If I am authorized to proceed with the discount program I would propose that we start with a 30% premium discount for qualifying pilots/members. But here’s the catch: Our rates on autogyros are pretty high. Our hull rates run about 8% for very well qualified pilots up to about 12% for very low time pilots. Even with a 30% discount, you’re still looking at 5.5% to 8.5% hull rates – which I imagine is probably higher than the PRA members want to pay – especially if they are going to the extra effort of getting training and inspections done. I will look into the possibility of a larger discount – but until the aviation management changeover has taken place I’m not able to commit to anything.

Let me know that the PRA folks think of the requirements on their end – if they like it then let’s circle back in a few weeks so I can let you know the status on Hallmark’s end.
 
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All_In

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John, when you say "haul value" are you meaning to say "hull value?"

I think "haul" value is what it's worth as scrap metal after you ball it up!
Thank you, Paul.
 

Jazzenjohn

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I've designed, built, and flown 4 different ultralight gyros. Amassing parts for a 2 place now.
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John, I think we should explore the possibility of having a simulator for some or possibly most of the training required by the insurance companies. First it could save us money for the training, but more importantly it would allow us to have a multitude of safe, controlled, inflight problems on a simulator, some of which are particular only to the gyro, for people to experience. It's easy to pull the power back on a training flight at 1500 feet and simulate an engine out, but on a sim, you could do it at 25 feet on takeoff with complete safety, a far more challenging situation. Investing in a simulator, perhaps based off the popular and affordable X-Plane can be done inexpensively, and has president, as it was/(is?) being used by Carter Copter on their planes.
 

All_In

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John, I think we should explore the possibility of having a simulator for some or possibly most of the training required by the insurance companies. First it could save us money for the training, but more importantly it would allow us to have a multitude of safe, controlled, inflight problems on a simulator, some of which are particular only to the gyro, for people to experience. It's easy to pull the power back on a training flight at 1500 feet and simulate an engine out, but on a sim, you could do it at 25 feet on takeoff with complete safety, a far more challenging situation. Investing in a simulator, perhaps based off the popular and affordable X-Plane can be done inexpensively, and has president, as it was/(is?) being used by Carter Copter on their planes.
Could you put the hardware and software shopping list together for us to create it and I'll try and earn the revenue to build one? I would send it to all the chapters for a month or so at a time and at our fly-in. Then back on the road.
We have talked about this on the forum for years but PRA may have the funding to do it this year. Only need to pay for all the college projects (12 of them now) and this will be next. Need a budget.
 

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We could use a virtual reality headset for the pilot and a monitor for the audience to see what they are looking at?
 

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PS: They are still going to have to fly. But this could really improve the skills our entire community skills and do lower landing tests as you point out. It may be easier to get members to practice as it's like an amusement ride.
 

All_In

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I was thinking I would build the 3 axes gyro frame/seat for it but just realized I'll give this to one of the 3 colleges as a new PRA educational kit projects.
I think I know how Edison must have felt. Give it to a team of engineers even students and with my directions and ideas they make it happen in one semester or do not graduate. So use to a one-man band I forget I think I have to do everything. Not any more. I'm having the most productive fun time in my life.
 

GyrOZprey

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John Nagle is a gyro enthusiast and also has high level of skills in VIRTUAL-REALITY VIDEO-GAMING..... Maybe he would like to develop something for our gyro community!????
 

Sv.grainne

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I would love me to help where I can. Web development skills, electrical, electronic, mechanical background. Had issues with insurance moving our boat to the Caribbean so understand the issues. Especially related to CFI's and the impact to us newbies...
 

PW_Plack

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I would send it to all the chapters for a month or so at a time and at our fly-in. Then back on the road.

John, once designed the hardware would be relatively cheap to duplicate, and if the gyro is accurately modeled it could be made available free to plug into X-Plane. I think every chapter could have its own sim. What a great draw for meetings!
 

All_In

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John Nagle is a gyro enthusiast and also has high level of skills in VIRTUAL-REALITY VIDEO-GAMING..... Maybe he would like to develop something for our gyro community!????
He could do it too. But he's programming his own thing and I know you can't do two at once. Great Idea. Not sure he comes here anymore. It's like a ghost town.
 

All_In

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I would love me to help where I can. Web development skills, electrical, electronic, mechanical background. Had issues with insurance moving our boat to the Caribbean so understand the issues. Especially related to CFI's and the impact to us newbies...
I had a feeling about you being a good guy!!!
PRA could use all of those skills... Let's talk, when your free, 619 740 6712 I'm in San Diego so PS time. I get up at 6:30 and go to bed in 2 min's = 2 AM.
 

All_In

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John, once designed the hardware would be relatively cheap to duplicate, and if the gyro is accurately modeled it could be made available free to plug into X-Plane. I think every chapter could have its own sim. What a great draw for meetings!
Yaw Mon, that is the way to go. See If the Board would agree that for every chapter that signed up all of their members we give them a complete system.
Also maybe raffle x-plane package with stick and rudders for a home computer system?
 

All_In

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BTW: It took a while but found an 'X-Plane 10' for an ELA-07 gyro so that makes it much easier.

I've uploaded it to PRA's site because it would no upload here too large a file. it's zipped.

Click Here->-> is a link for an ELA-07 gyro for X-Plane '10'.

But warning it may not load into x-Plane 11 the newest version and you may have to find and use 10.
When I get a chance I'll buy X-Plane 11 and test it. I've not tested this only doing research.
 

Jazzenjohn

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X-plane 11 has a Bensen gyro, an ELA an RAF 2000 and others. I like the single seat one best. As for other hardware it seems to me it would be best to set the budget and fit into that. On the inexpensive end a simple set of plug and play pedals, a throttle quadrant, and a joy stick modified to the much longer length of a typical gyro are the basics. I've used a big screen TV, but I think a reasonably priced set of VR goggles would be better. On the cheap it could be done for a few hundred dollars plus the computer it runs on. The better the computer and graphics card the better the detail and resolution. Making it move ups the cost and decreases the probability of it ever actually getting built. I think making a very basic one first and getting the programming down for realistic feel and action is important. Making a second, follow up version that incorporates movement and stick shakers and fancy stuff should come AFTER you have one up and running.
 

All_In

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Hi John
Yes, that is my plan too. Buy a X-Plane 11.2, test it with my yoke FW controls and rudder I use with Microsoft for FW IFR self-training.
But before that, I needed to research
1) if a gyro computer model existed = Yes found ELA but may not run in the newest version.
2) Does it have an SDK (Software Development Kit) = Yes it does have a full (SDK) = DDL's to access X-Plane's data to drive a motion platform.

I have X-Planes newest SDK download on PRA site if you want a copy click this link.


It is a go. We can do this.
 

All_In

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The bad news is all of the colleges are shutting down. This means most of the 8 remaining projects will not be completed this year and put this project on a list behind others.
However, UCSD EE department has asked me for projects and I will try and sneak it in but if they cancel classes to we will just have to wait. I can do it myself but not running PRA, raffles, Group Ins, write the new website, and run 12 projects with 4 professors, 3 colleges, and 60 students.
That is why the 23 pages of my inventions have never been finished by me. I've tried to give them away so anyone would do them but no joy until the colleges started asking me for more and more. I'm having so much fun and never so productive in my entire life.
 

All_In

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Not sure over 10,000+ logged FW, 260+ ultralights, sailplane, hang-gliders
X-plane 11 has a Bensen gyro, an ELA an RAF 2000 and others. I like the single seat one best. As for other hardware it seems to me it would be best to set the budget and fit into that. On the inexpensive end a simple set of plug and play pedals, a throttle quadrant, and a joy stick modified to the much longer length of a typical gyro are the basics. I've used a big screen TV, but I think a reasonably priced set of VR goggles would be better. On the cheap it could be done for a few hundred dollars plus the computer it runs on. The better the computer and graphics card the better the detail and resolution. Making it move ups the cost and decreases the probability of it ever actually getting built. I think making a very basic one first and getting the programming down for realistic feel and action is important. Making a second, follow up version that incorporates movement and stick shakers and fancy stuff should come AFTER you have one up and running.
PS:
John do you have links to download RAF. I found the Bensen for sale for $9+ but no HS so ruled it out.
 
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