PRA - relevance in todays reality!

[GyrOZprey]

One of my questions on my "gyro-personality" interview forms ,asks about how they see the future and relevance of PRA in a very different era than that of its founding - as a support and social structure for Igor Bensen's - "everyman's aircraft!"
There are always a lot of great & diverse answers.

A recent poster on Facebook PRA page has an interesting list that provoked an excellent discussion.

One of my recent interviewees - related a story about a corporate success model - where - all the workers had a suggestion box to toss out improvement ideas to the directorship. - EVERY idea was give discussion time & examined - no matter how "out there" it seemed, every suggestion had a No-penalty for the originator - clause - as all suggestions had to be signed by the member.

I think we could all benefit from taking THIS list of how PRA can improve its relevance and discuss it line by line - no matter the feasibility .... see what some creative think-tanking can bring to the PRA BOD!

MY responses to a few lines in bold/italics!

DISCUSSION & THINK-TANK - is open!

YOU WANT PRA TO GROW?
Get back to basics... i think thats what Bensen would say...

Basic affordable aircraft - ( BUT modern SAFE & Stable-flying .... GyroTechnic and Aviomania have kits as affordable as they can be !)

Hangar flying. (CHECK - plenty @ Mentone 2024 - & a well received open-form discussion on gyro accidents & solutions)

childrens programs with games and races

Inexpensive food and drink ( Canteen prices were very fair - in current market)

Raffles. ( We raffled off an I-Fly EFB VFR 1 year subscription and Texas spice-goodie bag - donated by Juanita & Walter Boyd of Adventure pilot makers of I-Fly EFB nav-maps & units). We also have a second subscription we plan to raffle along with winners choice of rotor donated -at cost by GyroTechnic - Razor blades( 23-27ft) or Averso rotor for 2-place machine from Abid./Silverlight Aviation)

Student scholarships

Exciting advertising

Newsletter - rather than magazine. (Does the new online/ website E-zine fit the bill?)

Did you invite even a single Army or natl guard helicopter to attend Mentone? Not even a flyby? ( Great idea)

Stop trying to be bigger than you are. (kinda hard with a tiny skeleton-crew of volunteers - making the whole event run)

Stop letting commercialization and profiteers guide events. (?????)

Establish meaningful traditions and a few heros and stick to them..

Make gyros practical and family friendly.

If no one named your strip IGOR BENSEN FIELD then get to it.

You have to care about youth or civil gyros will be buried at sea.

Promote gyros in common ownership like glider clubs... Stress insurance and training guidlines. (We'd LOVE to have a PRA-owned training 2-place machine that could rotate around chapters to provide low-cost training and have the chapter CFI's able to get more folks into gyros - affordably)

Having seen some impromptu show-off stunts at Bensen days i can say with confidence Id rather my kids go rollerskating into the grand canyon than learn bad habits from shallow gyro pilots chasing cows or endangering farm equipment; all the while making more noise than a 747.

BTW havent you noticed an increase in aviation accidents perhaps due to tiktok video makers, Reno promoted aviation drag races, and stupid REDBULL wannabees? Stol events and off season practice sessions are throwing young pilots looking for a thrill right under the bus.

Weed out the biker mentality. (??? We love to call ourselves the "dirt-bikes of the sky" - and many of our best members ARE past bikers & racers!!!)

Spot landings and stol take off events urge poor flying habits gyros were not meant to withstand. Gyros are not short field performers despite what manufacturers might want you to think.

How many more historical aircraft must we lose like P51 or B17 etc before theyre gone?

Where are the gyro RC modeling kits and clubs?

Do you have early gyro and helo models hanging from the rafters?

Where are the new design contests and PRA gyro plans/parts store?

Where is the PRA computer flight simulator? ( Held hostage in CA by a disgruntled/vindictive past BOD member)

Where is the PRA technical staff to support a gyro quieting program. Noise is the bane of rotorcraft operations.

Where are your highschool lecturers and field trip guides? ( I have taken my gyros "on tour" with the unique KS DOT-Aviation Fly-KS air tour - an annual 3 day trip around regional airports where local families and many school kids come out to the airport stops to see aircraft and talk to pilots - for the past 5 years!)

Where is your national cadet program to find future military pilots?

Where is your leadership???? STOP the petty bickering and get with the program even if it's not your idea... Grow up or get out.

Ask yourself what Bensen did to excite the imagination of millions... keeping in mind there are many more aircraft types these days with which to compete...

You've made gyros a one-man circus... now its time to make it a lifelong joy.

Gyros dont attract people for long - good, honest people attract people.

Good luck. (JOE BEN)



Lots of good material here to provoke thoughtful discuss - LET's GO!

 

[WaspAir]

Weed out the biker mentality. (??? We love to call ourselves the "dirt-bikes of the sky" - and many of our best members ARE past bikers & racers!!!)

Dirt bikes are a very different sub-culture than intended by the term "biker," as used here.

If you want to understand this one, think Hells Angels, not organized, sanctioned motocross races. Anti-authority, chip on your shoulder, outlaw, don't try to tell me anything, I'll build and ride my chopper any way I damn well please bikers, not AMA racers or enduro enthusiasts.

 

[Sv.grainne]

I did a 25hr trip to Mentone. Way to far, I can go to Wachula or el mirage in less time. Can't you work out a rotating schedule?

I really enjoyed Mentone but it seemed more like a Midwest regional event than a national event.

The facility is super but with membership as it is how long can the place hang on?

Bobby

 

[Gyronaut Jones]

I think growing local events leads to a larger national event. I was actually surprised to learn how few PRA chapters are left nationally. I'd think an initiative to get a club in every state would be helpful to grow overall awareness of the organization. Perhaps gyro pilots are to few in numbers for that to be a reality. These chapters are the mouthpiece of the PRA and vital for getting the word out in every region.

I was curious what was required to start a chapter and I couldn't find any info about starting one on the website. Maybe I missed it? Maybe there are to many jaded Gyronauts that chapters can't thrive? As a newer guy catching up on past gossip it's hard to tell what the right answer is.

 

[MikeBoyette]

unfortunately our group (I have always considered anyone whom flys a gyro family) has suffered the same as our society. We have let difference of opinion drive a wedge in the thing that should bind us. All of us should realize we are never going to change anyone’s mind about there idea of what is right or wrong. We need to embrace our differences and let people do their thing without any unsolicited condescension from self important people whom like to be a Gyro Karen. Kindness is the building blocks to a better life and peace in one’s self and relationships. Damn I sound like a Grandpa.

 

[j4flyer]

Everyone wants to see PRA grow. I believe we need to address the “Why”. What would growth in membership provide to PRA beside money ? What would the numbers allow us to attain ? Having answers to these questions might assist in building membership. (when asked by prospective members)
We are building membership to gain the clout necessary for membership to purchase individual insurance policies at a better rate. We are building the numbers to make PRA more desirable to outside advertisers. This would add to our ability to provide scholarships, begin airport projects, etc. We are building membership to gain clout for better airport access. We want the FAA to see a large member number so they will take PRA seriously when a training program is put forth. Anyway, just some thoughts.

 

[Abid]

unfortunately our group (I have always considered anyone whom flys a gyro family) has suffered the same as our society. We have let difference of opinion drive a wedge in the thing that should bind us. All of us should realize we are never going to change anyone’s mind about there idea of what is right or wrong. We need to embrace our differences and let people do their thing without any unsolicited condescension from self important people whom like to be a Gyro Karen. Kindness is the building blocks to a better life and peace in one’s self and relationships. Damn I sound like a Grandpa.

Mike
On the machine side your stated points can be achieved via consensus standards. When all the manufacturers and industry persons including instructors, sellers, dealers can get together and agree at at the minimum a gyroplane should be deemed minimally safe if it has XYZ structural strength and it has ABC characteristics for stable and predictable flying. This does not mean the standard is "prescriptive". Meaning we do not say you have to have a horizontal stabilizer or you have to be within 4 inches thrust line of vertical CG. Those are prescriptive solutions and those are always limiting and get outdated. The standards demand a performance. How that performance is achieved by a designer and engineer is completely left open. Helicopters have control augmentations to get certification in Part 27. That is not disallowed. So once such a standard is developed that defines a minimal performance and stability for gyroplane as a rotorcraft, you have a level and hopefully a safer playing field and how someone achieves those results is not the concern. It is important that they achieve them somehow.
The whole point of these standards is that they are renewed once a year and if we see a slew of accidents that point to a particular trend, they can be updated by a task force workgroup from within the industry and in 6 months you have to incorporate that new standard into your design. This is unlike FAA standard category where you cannot even change the regulation quickly even when it is for required safety. It takes them years to do that.

People should know that if you want to participate in the standards building and you are related to the industry which includes
Manufacturers
Dealers
Instructors
PRA Board members
Enthusiastic Users even

You can join ASTM to be a member for $80/year individual membership and take the right library to access the standards (I take the digital library) and ask to be in F37 committee and then gyroplane sub-committee.
I have no idea who is running the show for gyroplane sub-committee right now, but I know they are doing a piss poor job of "consensus building". They could have a rude awakening if they tried to bring a standard forward and me and other manufacturers not invited to at least decided to complain to FAA ASTM Program Manager John Stoll ([email protected]) and put the standard acceptance by FAA in a halt position. It is the whole industry that could decide to vote on the standard. Every negative has to be handled via a meeting. FAA gets exactly one vote just like any other member, but they hold the final say in accepting or not accepting the standard for US market.

 

[Gyronaut Jones]

Times have changed and so has the average gyro pilot. What once was a home built community has rapidly grown into a turn key more "hands off" pilot. Meaning they aren't building, tinkering, or modifying their machines. So maybe the question is, what are the needs of gyronauts now Vs what it used to be and how do we bring value to everyone? Regardless of your type of machine, fly-ins and gatherings seem like a constant need but people can't attend if they don't know they exist. If a large majority of gyro enthusiasts who follow these groups and pages aren't aware of events, then the general public definitely won't be aware.

 

[Gyronaut Jones]

Everyone wants to see PRA grow. I believe we need to address the “Why”. What would growth in membership provide to PRA beside money ? What would the numbers allow us to attain ? Having answers to these questions might assist in building membership. (when asked by prospective members)
We are building membership to gain the clout necessary for membership to purchase individual insurance policies at a better rate. We are building the numbers to make PRA more desirable to outside advertisers. This would add to our ability to provide scholarships, begin airport projects, etc. We are building membership to gain clout for better airport access. We want the FAA to see a large member number so they will take PRA seriously when a training program is put forth. Anyway, just some thoughts.

Agree 100%. Knowing the "why" is the first step to creating a plan of action.

 

[Brent Drake]

Dirt bikes are a very different sub-culture than intended by the term "biker," as used here.

If you want to understand this one, think Hells Angels, not organized, sanctioned motocross races. Anti-authority, chip on your shoulder, outlaw, don't try to tell me anything, I'll build and ride my chopper any way I damn well please bikers, not AMA racers or enduro enthusiasts.

I do know some of these guys. The Hells Angels is a very well-organized biker group. So are the outlaws.

 

[Doug Riley]

Abid: I don't know how involved you were in the attempt, now years ago, that we made to come up with just the sort of standards you describe. And we did come up with standards via the ASTM process, although some members quit the committee along the way. The goal was to achieve FAA approval for fly-away-factory Light Sport gyros. IIR, FAA said in effect that you guys don't agree even on the basics (one of controversial technical items was the notion of main-rotor precession stall). So no FAF Light Sport gyros.

As for the PRA -- gee, we have this ancient "thing" hanging around that Bensen started as a builder-owners' association for his brand. That need no longer exists. So we either morph the old Bensen "thing" to meet today's needs, perhaps retaining nothing but the name -- or junk it and build something different that does meet those needs.

Some of the discussion seems to center on saving the "thing" 'cause it was great back in the day. Other comments (the more helpful ones, IMHO) try to answer the "what do we need now?" question. Once you answer that question, then whether you modify PRA or dump it and start from scratch won't matter a great deal.

I would think that the Mentone airport would address today's needs and wants as well as those of yesteryear.

 

[Sv.grainne]

I think growing local events leads to a larger national event. I was actually surprised to learn how few PRA chapters are left nationally. I'd think an initiative to get a club in every state would be helpful to grow overall awareness of the organization. Perhaps gyro pilots are to few in numbers for that to be a reality. These chapters are the mouthpiece of the PRA and vital for getting the word out in every region.

I was curious what was required to start a chapter and I couldn't find any info about starting one on the website. Maybe I missed it? Maybe there are to many jaded Gyronauts that chapters can't thrive? As a newer guy catching up on past gossip it's hard to tell what the right answer is.

It's on the website now! UnderAbout PRA.

Chapter Packet

 

[DarDow101]

I remember the good ole times i used to have. I was so enthusiastic i brought 2 computers with gyro sims on them for anyone to enjoy to Bensen Days 2012, bought all the merch available, got log book entries, volunteered at the entrance, donated posters for raffle & even bought an ad in the Tampa Bay Times to promote it all in 2013. Was even a paid PRA member. The Good ole' times. But for a few I had planned to be involved longer.

 

[SpyderMike]

There are similar parallels here to the sport of hanggliding that has been on a steady decline for much too long. Not much left there...sadly.

I have always thought that one possible solution to this type of decline is to aim at a younger audience...through STEM programs or the like. Introduce them to this facet of aviation - to as many people as possible. Plant the seeds of interest while they are relatively young. That is one approach EAA is doing with their Young Eagles, aviation camps, STEM programs, comic book and the like. It seems to be working.

Personally, I am mentoring and sponsoring a couple of young pilots right now and it is working. I will continue to do so and hope to expand it with their involvement.

It takes a while for these seeds to germinate, but I know, for me anyway, the desire to fly at a young age was planted and continued to grow. I flew hanggliders at 15, started planes at 16, got my PPL at 17 and a from then on have had a life related to aviation/aerospace of all kinds/types...gyros being just one in my 20s and 30s (Bensen).

There is no "quick" solution. A long term strategic multifaceted plan is needed. My opinion...

 

[j4flyer]

Are the manufacturers encouraged to supply a PRA membership to every person buying a kit or factory built gyro ? Have we encouraged every CFI to steer their students and demo ride participants to PRA ?

 

[mcross1882]

As someone in the younger crowd here I can give some points of feedback on my views of joining the PRA.

Perceived Benefit
I am totally open to getting a PRA membership but the benefits don't really seem worth it when you already have an EAA membership. Yes, there are gyro specific documents which EAA does not have access too. But for the most part my instructors will have similar material which helps or I can reach out to the manufacturer in case of issues with the aircraft.

Perhaps expanding the benefits in details or offering a "freemium" version to help entice users into the system and help them understand what they are getting.

Mentone Convention
I agree with starting to get local gyroports to help host mini fly ins to help boost the mentone event. For me it's simply to far of a drive to justify especially with a lot of amenities lacking in the local area. But I have been to gyro fly ins at Dublin and that attracted a decent crowd despite being in the middle of nowhere Texas.

Gyro Education
One thing I see a huge lack of is gyro Education amongst the GA community. I think this really impacts gyros. I have been to IA seminars where a licensed mechanics/pilot lectured me on a "gyro take off" telling me "stock forward until you hit takeoff speed".

That kind of ignorance shows some deeper issues with how gyro experiences are spread word of mouth. I see the PRA stepping in here with fact based training documents, participation in FAA related seminars to help spread knowledge amongst mechanics and pilots.

Branding Uplift
I hate to say this but the PRA is in desperate need of a branding lift. You would be amazed how far $200 can go on Fiverr for a cheap graphic artist to update logos and website themes to feel like 2024.

For younger people the legacy style website will be harder to convince people to provide their information into such a system. As well as ease of use will be a huge factor in the website adoption.

The website could also serve as a very useful area to announce aviation events to help drive traffic to the website.

 

[Sv.grainne]

Branding Uplift
I hate to say this but the PRA is in desperate need of a branding lift. You would be amazed how far $200 can go on Fiverr for a cheap graphic artist to update logos and website themes to feel like 2024.

For younger people the legacy style website will be harder to convince people to provide their information into such a system. As well as ease of use will be a huge factor in the website adoption.

The website could also serve as a very useful area to announce aviation events to help drive traffic to the website.

Matt: Would you describe this please?

Bobby

 

[Gyro Technic]

Matt,
That was an incredibly well written, constructive post!
Thank you!
Denis

 

[mcross1882]

Matt: Would you describe this please?

Bobby

Bobby, so sorry that came off the wrong way after I re read it.

The website is very well built in its current state I should've worded my statement to say some advice from a UX designer may help with user journeys across the site and they may be able to modernize logos, themes in one swoop.

Otherwise I think y'all have done a top notch job renovating that thing.

 

[Sv.grainne]

Bobby, so sorry that came off the wrong way after I re read it.

The website is very well built in its current state I should've worded my statement to say some advice from a UX designer may help with user journeys across the site and they may be able to modernize logos, themes in one swoop.

Otherwise I think y'all have done a top notch job renovating that thing.

Matt:

I didn't take your comments in a negative way, just trying to understand what you mean.